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Tags gravity , homeopathy , photons , quantum mechanics

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Old 17th October 2004, 01:16 AM   #241
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
In your own words please. What is entropy? How does increased entropy help homeopathy?
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Old 17th October 2004, 02:30 AM   #242
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Why no? Do the photons not heat or exite molecules/atoms/electrons of water,alcohol?
Kumar, this is incredibly simple to sort out in respect of homeop-nonsense.

Take two vials, put water, alcohol in both. Go through the potentisation process.

Come up with any way to tell the difference between the two at the end of it.

When you do there is a phenomenon to be explained.

Until you've done that concentrate on answering MonkeyMan's entropy question.

Why do all Kumar's threads follow the same pattern exactly?
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Old 17th October 2004, 02:33 AM   #243
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Originally posted by Zombified
Certainly they do. As they do with every other material. Water, alcohol and lactose are not special in this way. Of course, this heating or scattering or any other photon-atom interaction does not communicate any information of therapeutic value. Even if it could, there is no mechanism to prevent interfering patterns from being potentized, nor is there any mechanism to maintain the information long-term instead of being wiped out by thermal collisions.

But you will certainly ignore this.
Good! On any Photon-atom/molecule/electron interaction origional photon is absorbed & a new photon is created. I may call it as a seconadary.... photon. It slows down photon movement/rays, refract..etc. What you can tell about this absorption & remission of photons by same atom.....Does it not leave effect on atom...? Does it then, not differanciate atom before remission & after remission. I think, it is degradation-mostly.
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Old 17th October 2004, 02:41 AM   #244
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[quote]Originally posted by Benguin
Kumar, this is incredibly simple to sort out in respect of homeop-nonsense.

Take two vials, put water, alcohol in both. Go through the potentisation process.

Come up with any way to tell the difference between the two at the end of it.


You can see provided you have eyes which can look photons avtivities & interactions with atoms/molecules & electrons.


When you do there is a phenomenon to be explained.

phenomennon already& mostly indicated.

Until you've done that concentrate on answering MonkeyMan's entropy question.

I know, he want to tell something, still I want to continue with you & others, some more & want from you to indicate accordingly.

Why do all Kumar's threads follow the same pattern exactly?
Somewhat 'absoluteness' or God's Grace.
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Old 17th October 2004, 03:17 AM   #245
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[quote]Originally posted by Kumar
Quote:
Originally posted by Benguin
Kumar, this is incredibly simple to sort out in respect of homeop-nonsense.

Take two vials, put water, alcohol in both. Go through the potentisation process.

Come up with any way to tell the difference between the two at the end of it.


You can see provided you have eyes which can look photons avtivities & interactions with atoms/molecules & electrons.
Even then we contend you could not. These things can be measured.
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Old 17th October 2004, 03:27 AM   #246
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Quote:
Originally posted by Benguin
Even then we contend you could not. These things can be measured.
Good! Then Pls reply:-

On any Photon-atom/molecule/electron interaction origional photon is absorbed & a new photon is remmited. I may call remitted photon as a seconadary.... photon. It slows down photon movement/rays, refract..etc. What you can tell about this absorption & remission of photons by same atom.....Does it not leave effect on atom...? Does it then, not differanciate atom before remission & after remission. I think, it is degradation-mostly.
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Old 17th October 2004, 03:47 AM   #247
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
In your own words please. What is entropy? How does increased entropy help homeopathy?
In chess the repetition of a position ends the game. In chess, this is called stalemate, but in this instance we took all of Kumar's pieces long ago and are left shuffling our own on the board to make pretty patterns.
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Old 17th October 2004, 03:50 AM   #248
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BSM,

What is entropy? How does increased entropy help homeopathy?

In My words: Grounded state of electrons..after interaction with photons/heat/MF...or excitation. Good for homeopathy as a reversible change in heat/photons produces a change in the measure.

Look at this:-

"the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity b : a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder"
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Old 17th October 2004, 04:36 AM   #249
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Good for homeopathy as a reversible change in heat/photons produces a change in the measure.
How is entropy reversed in general? Where in the preparation of homeopathic remedies is entropy reversed?
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Old 17th October 2004, 04:39 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Good! Then Pls reply:-

On any Photon-atom/molecule/electron interaction origional photon is absorbed & a new photon is remmited. I may call remitted photon as a seconadary.... photon. It slows down photon movement/rays, refract..etc. What you can tell about this absorption & remission of photons by same atom.....Does it not leave effect on atom...? Does it then, not differanciate atom before remission & after remission. I think, it is degradation-mostly.
Read what I said again. It just doesn't matter either way.

Now stop avoiding answering the nice Marteshka's entropy question.
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Old 17th October 2004, 05:09 AM   #251
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Quote:
Originally posted by Benguin
Read what I said again. It just doesn't matter either way.

Now stop avoiding answering the nice Marteshka's entropy question.
Pls reply this question clearly:

On any Photon-atom/molecule/electron interaction origional photon is absorbed & a new photon is remmited. I may call remitted photon as a seconadary.... photon. It slows down photon movement/rays, refract..etc. What you can tell about this absorption & remission of photons by same atom.....Does it not leave effect on atom...? Does it then, not differanciate atom before remission & after remission. I think, it is degradation-mostly
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Old 17th October 2004, 05:20 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Pls reply this question clearly:

On any Photon-atom/molecule/electron interaction origional photon is absorbed & a new photon is remmited. I may call remitted photon as a seconadary.... photon. It slows down photon movement/rays, refract..etc. What you can tell about this absorption & remission of photons by same atom.....Does it not leave effect on atom...? Does it then, not differanciate atom before remission & after remission. I think, it is degradation-mostly
It would be easier if you phrased a question rather than a jumbled mish mash of hypotheses, speculation and googled physics.

The answer is mostly yes, but it won't help you.

I don't see how you can demand we answer these questions when you refuse answer any yourself.

Maimuta's Entropy question. Come on, no more dithering and redirection.
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Old 17th October 2004, 06:03 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
What is entropy? How does increased entropy help homeopathy?
Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
How is entropy reversed in general? Where in the preparation of homeopathic remedies is entropy reversed?
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Old 17th October 2004, 06:33 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
BSM,

What is entropy? How does increased entropy help homeopathy?

In My words: Grounded state of electrons..after interaction with photons/heat/MF...or excitation. Good for homeopathy as a reversible change in heat/photons produces a change in the measure.

Look at this:-

"the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity b : a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder"
Benguin.BSM,

What is this?
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Old 17th October 2004, 06:34 AM   #255
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Does it not leave effect on atom...? Does it then, not differanciate atom before remission & after remission. I think, it is degradation-mostly
You seem intent on getting an answer to this question...

There are a couple of possible outcomes. In most cases, the photon will not have enough energy to affect the electrons within the atom. In this case, interaction with the photon will just give the atom a bump, changing its momentum and kinetic energy. Like bumping billiard balls together.

If the photon is of sufficient energy, it may excite an electron into a higher energy state. This is like bumping a single electron. Eventually the electron will return to its original state by re-emitting another photon.

With more energy still, you may ionize the atom, which is giving an electron a hard enough bump to knock it free of the atom completely. Ions are typically chemically active (like a free radical).

Of course, you don't usually just deal with single free atoms - they are often parts of molecules, so you have to deal with the effects of bumping atoms and electrons within more complex molecules. In general, if you bump atoms and/or electrons hard enough (with high enough energy photons) you will cause a chemical change in molecule.

Photons of optical wavelengths typically don't have enough energy per photon to do much damage, but ultraviolet light can cause a variety of chemical reactions. Sunburn for example.

None of this aids the potentization process. It is essentially random, and there aren't photons of sufficient energy being emitted and absorbed during the process to make any difference. Furthermore, the process is essentially random.

(Edited to fix potentially catastrophic typo.)
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Old 17th October 2004, 06:40 AM   #256
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
How is entropy reversed in general? Where in the preparation of homeopathic remedies is entropy reversed?
How is this process

"the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity b : a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder"

helpful to the process of creating a homeopathic remedy? You say it is good in that process. How is it good?
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Old 17th October 2004, 06:42 AM   #257
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zombified
you will cause a chemical change in a photon.
Typo alert! (Before Kumar starts a whole new tirade on chemical changes in photons....!)
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Old 17th October 2004, 06:49 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pragmatist
Typo alert! (Before Kumar starts a whole new tirade on chemical changes in photons....!)
Fixed. Yeah, that would be bad.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
BSM,

What is entropy? How does increased entropy help homeopathy?

In My words: Grounded state of electrons..after interaction with photons/heat/MF...or excitation. Good for homeopathy as a reversible change in heat/photons produces a change in the measure.
I'm not sure where you got this idea. Entropy has nothing to do with ground states. For that matter, it's not about individual particles, it's about large aggregates of particles. Also, increases in entropy are not reversible, that's sort of the point.
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Old 17th October 2004, 06:54 AM   #259
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pragmatist
Typo alert! (Before Kumar starts a whole new tirade on chemical changes in photons....!)
It doesn't matter. It has already been shown that you can feed Kumar any kind of words, and he will bounce them back in new combinations, but without any understanding at all. Human or not, Kumar is basically a turing bot.

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Old 17th October 2004, 06:57 AM   #260
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zombified


There are a couple of possible outcomes. In most cases, the photon will not have enough energy to affect the electrons within the atom. In this case, interaction with the photon will just give the atom a bump, changing its momentum and kinetic energy. Like bumping billiard balls together.

If the photon is of sufficient energy, it may excite an electron into a higher energy state. This is like bumping a single electron. Eventually the electron will return to its original state by re-emitting another photon.

Thanks.During potentisation, whether changes upto this are possible or not? That is also while dealing with molecular substances of active materials & carriers.

I also feel that when absorption & remission of photons in any atom/molecule takes place, it changes/degrade that atom/molecule a bit? Is it oK?
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Old 17th October 2004, 07:04 AM   #261
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Thanks.During potentisation, whether changes upto this are possible or not? That is also while dealing with molecular substances of active materials & carriers.
There is no indication that potentization even involves this process, nor that homeopathy's favorite remedies or substrates are special in any regard with respect to this process.
Quote:
I also feel that when absorption & remission of photons in any atom/molecule takes place, it changes/degrade that atom/molecule a bit? Is it oK?
This is not consistent with quantum mechanics. An atom is an atom is an atom. They are simple enough systems that all their possible states are known, and changes made to them are reversible. If you excite an electron from its ground state to a higher state, the electron will eventually decay back to its ground state, and the state of the atom overall will be identical to what it was originally. Quantum mechanics does not admit any additional state variables which could "remember" any long-term degradation, because in QM the fact that particles are identical and do not have much internal state is of great significance and would have significant experimental consequences that are not observed.
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Old 17th October 2004, 07:12 AM   #262
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Kumar



How is this process

"the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity b : a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder"

helpful to the process of creating a homeopathic remedy? You say it is good in that process. How is it good?
How degradation takes place? Is grinding, triturating any substance is its degradation/deformation or not?

Silicea remedy is indicated for more than 60% of all indications. By these discussions, I got some clues about inertness of Silica vs. its effectivenes as logic of healing may lie in inertness/entropy...as the reasoning of our complications may lie in & just in proportio to the extent & magnitude of our direct exposure to differant substances.
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Old 17th October 2004, 07:25 AM   #263
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
logic of healing may lie in inertness/entropy.
More like "logic of heels."
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Old 17th October 2004, 10:25 AM   #264
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
logic of healing may lie in inertness/entropy...as the reasoning of our complications may lie in & just in proportio to the extent & magnitude of our direct exposure to differant substances.
You really do have no idea whatsoever what any of the words that you throw around mean. "logic of healing may lie in inertness/entropy" is just gibberish.
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Old 17th October 2004, 10:36 AM   #265
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I was reading an old thread just now

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...tid=1870557698

I'd forgotten about Kumar's appearance as luvhumility. I just find it mystifying to understand why "Kumar" bothers with all this since he is clearly learning nothing yet it all seems too tediously drawn out to be a practical joke.

Whatever he is really up to, I've decided the best policy is either not to play at all or just keep the game ticking over to watch his behaviour.
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Old 17th October 2004, 02:02 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pragmatist
Yes, CuO (cuprous oxide) is the more common, the other oxide is actually Cu<sub>2</sub>O (cupric oxide), not CuO<sub>2</sub>.

Cuprous Oxide is black and Cupric Oxide is red.
&lt;small nitpick and derailment&gt;I think it's the other way round, the -ic suffix means the higher oxidation state; the -ous suffix the lower.
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Old 17th October 2004, 04:52 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
I was reading an old thread just now

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...tid=1870557698

I'd forgotten about Kumar's appearance as luvhumility. I just find it mystifying to understand why "Kumar" bothers with all this since he is clearly learning nothing yet it all seems too tediously drawn out to be a practical joke.

Whatever he is really up to, I've decided the best policy is either not to play at all or just keep the game ticking over to watch his behaviour.
It's curious that you can "give Kumar's wheel a spin" infrequently, and he will continue to chatter on aimlessly for ages. Sort of like a gyroscope of silliness.

Or just don't respond, and watch him topple over...
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Old 17th October 2004, 05:28 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pragmatist
Yes, CuO (cuprous oxide) is the more common, the other oxide is actually Cu<sub>2</sub>O (cupric oxide), not CuO<sub>2</sub>.

Cuprous Oxide is black and Cupric Oxide is red.
CuO<sub>2</sub>. Has been made according Inorganic Chemsitry Housecroft and Sharpe page 525 bottem left hand couner.
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Old 17th October 2004, 07:39 PM   #269
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Are you thinking or can't think other than.....?

By potentisation process>>Photons emited>absorbed>re-emited>absorbed.....>some degradation can make remedy's substances differant in every potency. Photons emited & re-emitted by active substances can effect carriers accordingly, resulting carriers to get the effect/memory of active substancs which then go on multiplying consequently. Photons emited by differant substances are differant. Any problem in this simple logic?

To support this refer:-
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae569.cfm
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Old 17th October 2004, 10:32 PM   #270
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In case anybody is interested, I wanted to address this question of entropy, since Kumar is misunderstanding the word "degradation".

Entropy is a thermodynamic property. It does not apply to individual particles where the state is easily determined; instead, it applies to very large collections of particles, either because they are part of a system with many parts (e.g. a gas or liquid consisting of say ~10<sup>23</sup> atoms) or you're considering an ensemble of many copies of identical systems.

You can immediately see part of Kumar's misunderstanding: he's attempting to apply a thermodynamic quantity (entropy) to individual consituents of a system (atoms) rather than the whole thing. Atoms don't "degrade"; if they did, it would be a way of distinguish what are experimentally known to be indistinguishable particles.

Entropy is a measure of how many different ways there are to arrange the microscopic states and still have the same apparent macroscopic (average) state. For example, let's say I have a 100 pennies which may be flipped heads or tails. Let's imagine all of them are flipped heads. There's only one way to arrange the pennies because they're all the same. Low entropy (zero, actually). Now, if you have exactly one tail, there are 100 possible micro-states: the first penny could be the tail, the second, and so on. If you've got two pennies that are tails, now the number of possible arrangements goes to 100*99 = 9900. As you get more and more tails, the entropy goes up and up, until you get a 50-50 distribution which has the maximum possible entropy for that system.

If you have a system which occasionally randomly flips pennies, over the long run the entropy will increase: you're likely to have around a 50-50 distribution. It would be very unlikely to have 100 heads.

If you actually want all heads, you have to do actual work: you must examine each penny to see what state its in, and flip over all the tails. In this example "work" is a bit of a pun; in real thermodynamics, the process of reducing entropy requires an external energy input, which increases entropy somewhere else.

Now to apply this to information. Imagine you spelled out a word, using pennies to represent the bits in an ASCII code, say. Clearly, if you have the random flip process going on, you're going to quickly lose your information. It will take longer if the message is redundant or includes error correction, but it will still happen. Basically, the number of "meaningful" microstates is a lot smaller than all possible states, so meaningful macrostates have low entropy.

What kind of process can you use to preserve the information? Either you must make the information very redundant to begin with, so that the data doesn't degrade sooner than you want it to, or you have to periodically amplify it, by making new copies, and again, you actually have to do work in order to do this (amplifiers require power).
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Old 17th October 2004, 10:49 PM   #271
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zombified
or you have to periodically amplify it, by making new copies, and again, you actually have to do work in order to do this (amplifiers require power).
With some form of error-checking (Yes?) or else Kumar will just tell us that it's the shaking tht provides the power, whereas all it really does is shake your tray of neatly ordered pennies.
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Old 17th October 2004, 11:05 PM   #272
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As far as I think everything can degrade--sooner or later except prime energy.

Zombified,thanks, I will understand it bit later. In the meantime, what about degradation of molecules? Are these degrade of emmission & absorption of photons/light/radiation?
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Old 17th October 2004, 11:09 PM   #273
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Having now been enlightened by this exchange, Kumar goes back to Otherhealth and posts (as Kayveeh):

Quote:
Hello all,

There can be some 'Good News'. By doing lot of discussions with a group skeptics & science learneds people(alike tigers), I think something very concrete about how homeopathic can work or how remedies can be effected by potentization process inspite no molecule of active substance can be present in higher potencies. You may read, study & understand this link, where so many concepts are discussed & lastly some concrete is already indicated but still yet to be presented clearly. It is intiated there, that let those science people study & present any logical & presentable theory in science--which they or anyone knowing some basics can present, now in consideration of those discussion. Pls just ignore 'this & that' or contradictory types talks (as common there & may be part of business of some there). You may also comment here, accordingly. I just indicate that we just degrade/degenerate the remedy substances alike we cook food properly--to make it effective or more effective.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0&pagenumber=1

Best wishes.
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#2 18th October 2004, 02:50 AM
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How homeopathic remedies can have effects

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We can understand it as under:-

"By potentisation process>> Photons are emited>>absorbed>> re-emited >>absorbed.....>>some degradation occurs which makes remedy's substances differant in every potency. Photons emited & re-emitted by active substances can effect carriers accordingly, resulting carriers to get the effect/memory of active substancs which then go on multiplying, consequently. Photons emited by differant substances are differant.

This process somewhat resembles with this:-

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae569.cfm


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Old 17th October 2004, 11:49 PM   #274
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kayveeh (Kumar) at OtherHealth

Pls just ignore 'this & that' or contradictory types talks (as common there & may be part of business of some there).
Thanks, Hans. This quote really speaks volumes for Kumar. He ignores us all the time, except when somebody throws in a word he can google for and the discussion is always like this:

Kumar: Homoeopathy works because of A
We: No, homoeopathy does not work with A because of C
Kumar: OK, homoeopathy works because of A and C
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Old 18th October 2004, 12:56 AM   #275
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
BSM,

I am bit happy today. Good News is indicated there. It appears that something concrete has already been indicated here, as a results of discussions & contributions of so many here & I am thankful to you all. You may now present some presentable theory here as CAN if you want, obiously.

Now it is your turn to show your capability & dynamizism.

Thanks & good wishes.
Mr.Hans, steenkh

I think you are out of touch recently. Some people may be laughing at back for this discovery since It is already indicated in above quoted post because I was expecting possibility of BACK BITING which for me type of people is not good esp. from

Mr. Hans.

Is it due to 'science of homeopathic working comes on final stage?
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Old 18th October 2004, 02:17 AM   #276
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Old 18th October 2004, 02:42 AM   #277
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[quote]Originally posted by Zombified
In case anybody is interested, I wanted to address this question of entropy, since Kumar is misunderstanding the word "degradation".

Entropy is a thermodynamic property. It does not apply to individual particles where the state is easily determined; instead, it applies to very large collections of particles, either because they are part of a system with many parts (e.g. a gas or liquid consisting of say ~10<sup>23</sup> atoms) or you're considering an ensemble of many copies of identical systems.

You can immediately see part of Kumar's misunderstanding: he's attempting to apply a thermodynamic quantity (entropy) to individual consituents of a system (atoms) rather than the whole thing. Atoms don't "degrade"; if they did, it would be a way of distinguish what are experimentally known to be indistinguishable particles.


Zombified, thanks for explaining degree of randomness & orientation/alignment as high & low entropy, macroscopically. Pls also try to explain it microscopically/quantum or in molecular/atomic or electron sense. It can be both positive & negative or differant, as all heads & all tails or more heads & more tails. Higher the entropy more the potential energy & lower the entropy higher the KE in it. If an electron goes higher or lower in orbit than the standard one on exitation--means low entropy, when grounded--means high entropy. Think about person on ground, mountain & in valley. By degradation/potentisation I mean when that person settles somewhere away from ground/origional point either at low or high altitude or at differant place on same level effected by energy applied.

Does it make some sense?
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Old 18th October 2004, 02:46 AM   #278
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Is it due to 'science of homeopathic working comes on final stage?
You are flattering yourself, Kumar! By ignoring all objections and fishing for new words that you can feed into google, you are not adancing the any kind of science, except possibly the science of psychology. Your method is in the long run estranging the people here from you, and they represent a large base of knowledge that could have helped you, if you ever had presented anything worthwhile.

You are trying to advance the "science" of a healing method that has never been proven to work, that not even proponents can distinguish from pure water, that can magically jump from one pill to another, and the only "scientific" theory that has ever been proposed for it - water memory - has been shown to work neither in theory nor in practise. Your feeble attempts to uphold this structure by using words such as "photons" or "entropy" has only showed that you have been busy ignoring everybody here who knows something about these matters.

For instance, when I ask you to explain how your photons can be distinguished from every other photon in millions of years of history that have hit your water molecules, your response is to find a google link that describes what colours are!

I trust that if you ever get ill, you will rely solely on homoeopathic remedies to get cured, right? Not that I actually wish you harm, I just wanted to know how deep your ignorance is!
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Old 18th October 2004, 02:51 AM   #279
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh
Thanks, Hans. This quote really speaks volumes for Kumar. He ignores us all the time, except when somebody throws in a word he can google for and the discussion is always like this:

Kumar: Homoeopathy works because of A
We: No, homoeopathy does not work with A because of C
Kumar: OK, homoeopathy works because of A and C
Why you have not mentioned B.

Anyway, let us also conclude one more understanding/concept.

Why water, alcohol, sugar, lactose are considered & used as CARRIERS for homeopathic remedies? Does 'heat travels from higher to lower temp.' concept means anything in this respect & in respect of homeopathic grafts?
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Old 18th October 2004, 03:06 AM   #280
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh
You are flattering yourself, Kumar! By ignoring all objections and fishing for new words that you can feed into google, you are not adancing the any kind of science, except possibly the science of psychology. Your method is in the long run estranging the people here from you, and they represent a large base of knowledge that could have helped you, if you ever had presented anything worthwhile.

You are trying to advance the "science" of a healing method that has never been proven to work, that not even proponents can distinguish from pure water, that can magically jump from one pill to another, and the only "scientific" theory that has ever been proposed for it - water memory - has been shown to work neither in theory nor in practise. Your feeble attempts to uphold this structure by using words such as "photons" or "entropy" has only showed that you have been busy ignoring everybody here who knows something about these matters.

For instance, when I ask you to explain how your photons can be distinguished from every other photon in millions of years of history that have hit your water molecules, your response is to find a google link that describes what colours are!

I trust that if you ever get ill, you will rely solely on homoeopathic remedies to get cured, right? Not that I actually wish you harm, I just wanted to know how deep your ignorance is!
If any doctor do not treat but just say to patient that pls die peacefully--does not mean he is helping him. Doctor's duty is to fight & keep/maintain hopes till life is there, only means he is doing the duty or helping. steenkh, although several here do not treat, leave hopes, discourage even at the start or just looking at patient or discourage because of precocieved adversities & few others leaves in between with same words. To accept your ideas, I need the solution because sufficient life is there. I have presented/concluded my concepts in several ways--now pls post the conclusion in your language, here--if you truely want to help. No treatment means just...otherwise.
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