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Tags gravity , homeopathy , photons , quantum mechanics

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Old 18th October 2004, 03:12 AM   #281
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Why you have not mentioned B.

Anyway, let us also conclude one more understanding/concept.

Why water, alcohol, sugar, lactose are considered & used as CARRIERS for homeopathic remedies? Does 'heat travels from higher to lower temp.' concept means anything in this respect & in respect of homeopathic grafts?
It is good to see that you can get pissed off, after you have been so busy causing us to feel so.

You cannot seriously suggest that homoeopathic pills have a higher temperature than non-homoeopathic pills? What makes you think that exchanging heat has also exchanged information necessary for healing? I have many times told you that energy and information is not the same thing, but this is just one more concept that you choose to ignore.
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Old 18th October 2004, 03:23 AM   #282
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh
It is good to see that you can get pissed off, after you have been so busy causing us to feel so.

You cannot seriously suggest that homoeopathic pills have a higher temperature than non-homoeopathic pills? What makes you think that exchanging heat has also exchanged information necessary for healing? I have many times told you that energy and information is not the same thing, but this is just one more concept that you choose to ignore.
Sorry, you have not followed my question. Water, alcohol or lactose is used for potentisation & sugar pills for carrying homeopathic liquid remedies on these. I want to understand why these materials are only used or suitable for preparing & carrying on homeopathic remedies? If I am not mistaken, higher the atomic number higher can be the temp. or energy(other energies) in that & higher energy should travel to lower energy level? How then these are related?
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Old 18th October 2004, 03:45 AM   #283
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Sorry, you have not followed my question. Water, alcohol or lactose is used for potentisation & sugar pills for carrying homeopathic liquid remedies on these. I want to understand why these materials are only used or suitable for preparing & carrying on homeopathic remedies? If I am not mistaken, higher the atomic number higher can be the temp. or energy(other energies) in that & higher energy should travel to lower energy level? How then these are related?
How did atomic number suddenly enter the picture? You must ask the homoeopaths why they use water, alcohol, lactose, and sugar. You can suggest to them that uranium oxide, having a higher atomic number might be better for potentisation.

And then you again ask a question about temperature (a question I cannot answer), but again you ignore what I say: Energy is not information. The temperature or energy level level has no relevance here. Try again, but without mentioning temperature or energy level, or start by explaining why energy IS information in your case.
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Old 18th October 2004, 04:01 AM   #284
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steenkh,

It is not related to deviation in previous conclusion but I want to know an another concept. All the constituens of cariers ( H,C,O) are of lower atomic number of most of remedies active substances. Energy travels from higher level to lower level. Now suppose we keep any substance of higher atomic number or higher atomic weight in contact with these lower ones---what will happen? Don't consider chemical reaction.
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Old 18th October 2004, 04:10 AM   #285
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Everyone, Kumar is just fishing for something to go on with now.

[aside to not(Kumar)]

It's always worth remembering, whenever you decide to respond in detail to ANY of Kumar's posts either here or on any other forum, that Kumar knows nothing and refuses to learn anything. He runs away from questions, never formulates any supporting arguments or data for his beliefs, and never lets the facts stand in the way of a total fallacy. When he is cornered, he simply changes the subject by some random process like "I Feel Lucky" on Google.

And it's no good referring to previous conversations, or even previous posts (no matter how proximate they may be to this one). Kumar reads but does not absorb - a total Teflon<sup>TM</sup>-brain.

And you may think you are doing him a favour by pointing out the flaws in his arguments and putting him in the right track for more relevant investigation. You may even go to the trouble of providing a good, simple analogy to explain a scientific principle or process (which, btw, I happen to appreciate even if Kumar doesn't). Huh. All pointless if you think you are teaching him anything, and a waste of your effort for him.

All of this is totally wasted on Kumar. Absolutely fu**ing wasted. But if you want to keep on feeding the troll, don't let me stop you. I have rarely seen people like Kumar - people who not just refuse to learn, but actually try to cast off knowledge. Personally, I'd question someone's sanity who did that...

Just my 2c.

[/aside to not(Kumar)]
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Old 18th October 2004, 04:12 AM   #286
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
steenkh,

It is not related to deviation in previous conclusion but I want to know an another concept. All the constituens of cariers ( H,C,O) are of lower atomic number of most of remedies active substances. Energy travels from higher level to lower level. Now suppose we keep any substance of higher atomic number or higher atomic weight in contact with these lower ones---what will happen? Don't consider chemical reaction.
If you can repeat yourself, so can I (and BTW, your atomic number idea is complete nonsense):

How did atomic number suddenly enter the picture? You must ask the homoeopaths why they use water, alcohol, lactose, and sugar. You can suggest to them that uranium oxide, having a higher atomic number might be better for potentisation.

And then you again ask a question about temperature (a question I cannot answer), but again you ignore what I say: Energy is not information. The temperature or energy level has no relevance here. Try again, but without mentioning temperature or energy level, or start by explaining why energy IS information in your case.
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Old 18th October 2004, 04:32 AM   #287
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh

And then you again ask a question about temperature (a question I cannot answer), but again you ignore what I say: Energy is not information. The temperature or energy level has no relevance here. Try again, but without mentioning temperature or energy level, or start by explaining why energy IS information in your case.
Let me clear it.

Energy: What we apply during potentisation>> Photons emitted>absorbed>re-emitted>absorbed....so on due to orbit shift>>higher energy photons of active substances moves towards lower energy photons of carriers>>making whole remedy's substance differant by photodegradation.

Information: made remedy's substances somewhat differant due to energy applied & used & photodegradation.

Is it clear? Now you can comment.
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Old 18th October 2004, 05:21 AM   #288
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Let me clear it.

Energy: What we apply during potentisation>> Photons emitted>absorbed>re-emitted>absorbed....so on due to orbit shift>>higher energy photons of active substances moves towards lower energy photons of carriers>>making whole remedy's substance differant by photodegradation.

Information: made remedy's substances somewhat differant due to energy applied & used & photodegradation.

Is it clear? Now you can comment.
Thank you, this is the first time I had the feeling that you actually thought about what I wrote. But I am afraid it is still not good enough to support to standpoint. You must think about how the remedy's substances can be made different due to the energy. You can only make the case that some water will be more energetic for a short while before this energy is lost by interaction with all the other molecules. You are not storing anything, and there is no structure to support information. In a computer, sinlge bits are nothing. It is only when you put structure into them and address them as bytes, records and files that they carry worthwhile information.

In your case you also have the problem that you need to explain how the information you want stored in the water will not be drowned in all the other information that would necessarily be stored in the water if your idea was correct.
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Old 18th October 2004, 06:25 AM   #289
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Let me clear it.

Energy: What we apply during potentisation>> Photons emitted>absorbed>re-emitted>absorbed....so on due to orbit shift>>higher energy photons of active substances moves towards lower energy photons of carriers>>making whole remedy's substance differant by photodegradation.

Information: made remedy's substances somewhat differant due to energy applied & used & photodegradation.

Is it clear? Now you can comment.
Kumar. No special photons are emitted because of potentisation. Just a slight increase in temperature, probably less than a degree. Neither water nor alcohol is changed by a slight temperature change. A cange in room temperature will cause a bigger change.

Photodegradation does not come into it at all. That happens from highly energetic photons from visible and ultravioled light, which is thousands of times more energetic.

You have been told this repeatedly: You are TOTALLY off track, and you are making a complete fool of yourself by continuing to spout this nonsense.

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Old 18th October 2004, 07:07 AM   #290
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Mr.Hans, steenkh,

Thanks. In potentisation process 1+99 parts or 1+9 parts are sucussed or triturated 2 hrs for each potency. With liquid potencies, solid subtances are also triturated than sussussed. Accordingly, molecules become well distributed & seprated--so that all or most can emit & absorb freely. Moreover, one molecule or atom should be able to emit huge numbers of photons. I think some cold photons concept in lighting is also there. I think all these should able to store information.
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Old 18th October 2004, 07:19 AM   #291
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
I think all these should able to store information.
Why?

You have only explained how succuration and tricussion ensure that all energy is evenly distributed over the entire solution. Any information imparted by energy will be lost. And as we have repeatedly told you, there is no information.

I thought you were just starting a new habit of deliberating the problems I pose to you, but you again start to ignore it!

How will you ensure that the information that according to your theory is put into the water be photons will not get lost in all the infomation that is already stored in the water according to your theory? And as Hans has said, heating the water to room temperature is more drastic energywise than succuss... (those absurd words again)!
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Old 18th October 2004, 10:42 AM   #292
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Just popping by to say hi to all of you still posting in Kumar's threads. My salutations to the lot of you!



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Old 18th October 2004, 10:59 AM   #293
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
I think all these should able to store information.
Why?

Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
In your own words please. What is entropy? How does increased entropy help homeopathy?
Quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
How is entropy reversed in general? Where in the preparation of homeopathic remedies is entropy reversed?
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Old 18th October 2004, 11:02 AM   #294
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[quote]Originally posted by steenkh
Why?
You have only explained how succuration and tricussion ensure that all energy is evenly distributed over the entire solution. Any information imparted by energy will be lost. And as we have repeatedly told you, there is no information.


Because emitted photons from active substance will be absorbed by carrier's molecules & re-emmied>>absorbed. As in refraction where light refract/slow down means it left some effect in media by light/photons. Light passes through water,glass etc cools down bit as in cars. Electric current passed through wires degrade that wire which need to be changed after some time...so on. Various materials heated also degrade. You may also take it alike 'Resistance effect on conduction'.

As far as I understand property of differant materials to absorb or reflect particular colours--to look differantly--should be by this process of photodegradation. Sunlight to effect colours of fruits, human being etc.

You have only explained how succuration and tricussion ensure that all energy is evenly distributed over the entire solution. Any inform[ation imparted by energy will be lost. And as we have repeatedly told you, there is no information.

I thought you were just starting a new habit of deliberating the problems I pose to you, but you again start to ignore it!

How will you ensure that the information that according to your theory is put into the water be photons will not get lost in all the infomation that is already stored in the water according to your theory? And as Hans has said, heating the water to room temperature is more drastic energywise than succuss... (those absurd words again)!

Distilled water is used. Anyway any information if stored in carriers or created by contaminations will be a standard constant. But what is added by active substances will be in addition to this constant & so will produce effects accordingly be ecitation/body energy on application. Triturating/rubbing, sucussion/shaking is differant from keeping any gross substance under heat.
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Old 18th October 2004, 11:09 AM   #295
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Triturating/rubbing, sucussion/shaking is differant from keeping any gross substance under heat.
How? You keep asserting this is various ways, but you have not explained why.

Edit to add: Hi, Rolfe!
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Old 18th October 2004, 12:49 PM   #296
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Mr.Hans, steenkh,

Thanks. In potentisation process 1+99 parts or 1+9 parts are sucussed or triturated 2 hrs for each potency. With liquid potencies, solid subtances are also triturated than sussussed. Accordingly, molecules become well distributed & seprated--so that all or most can emit & absorb freely. Moreover, one molecule or atom should be able to emit huge numbers of photons. I think some cold photons concept in lighting is also there. I think all these should able to store information.
Kumar, one word: Nonsense.

You are just spouting words. You might as well pick them at random from a dictionary.

I did once think that you were really seeking knowledge, really wanting to understand. You are not. You just want to borrow some feathers, in the form of fancy words, in order to look educated. You are not fooling anybody but yourself.



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Old 18th October 2004, 01:47 PM   #297
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http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...threadid=46910

Hans is right. There is a subset to the "confused enthusiast" option, which is "blind zealot trying to dress his mad ideas in more acceptable clothing but not listening to gainsayers as he gathers up his hoard of long, impressive words". That wouldn't have made a very punchy poll option.


quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
I think all these should able to store information.


Why?


quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
In your own words please. What is entropy? How does increased entropy help homeopathy?



quote:
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
How is entropy reversed in general? Where in the preparation of homeopathic remedies is entropy reversed?
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Old 18th October 2004, 04:16 PM   #298
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zamzara
&lt;small nitpick and derailment&gt;I think it's the other way round, the -ic suffix means the higher oxidation state; the -ous suffix the lower.
Oops, you are of course correct, thanks - momentary mental aberration on my part! And no need to worry about derailment, I think derailment would be quite welcome in this thread!

Quote:
Originally posted by geni
CuO<sub>2</sub>. Has been made according Inorganic Chemsitry Housecroft and Sharpe page 525 bottem left hand couner.
I think we're talking at cross purposes, I wasn't denying that it exists, I was simply pointing out that the two naturally occurring oxides are CuO and Cu<sub>2</sub>O, because that was what Benguin was asking about originally. As far as I know there are several different copper oxides which can be produced artificially in the lab under special conditions.
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Old 18th October 2004, 11:08 PM   #299
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[quote]Originally posted by Kumar
Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh
Any information imparted by energy will be lost. And as we have repeatedly told you, there is no information.
Quote:

Because emitted photons from active substance will be absorbed by carrier's molecules & re-emmied>>absorbed. As in refraction where light refract/slow down means it left some effect in media by light/photons. Light passes through water,glass etc cools down bit as in cars. Electric current passed through wires degrade that wire which need to be changed after some time...so on. Various materials heated also degrade. You may also take it alike 'Resistance effect on conduction'.

As far as I understand property of differant materials to absorb or reflect particular colours--to look differantly--should be by this process of photodegradation. Sunlight to effect colours of fruits, human being etc.
As I have repeatedly told you, you cannot create information by just by adding energy to a system. You need to use the energy to impose some kind of structure to hold the information. You have not argued how this information could be stored, only that if there ever was any information, you will dissipate it and lose it.
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Old 18th October 2004, 11:27 PM   #300
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Notice a couple of intriguing details for the decompilation of the Kumar bot:

Since he posts his nonsense as good news at otherhealth, he is not a pure troll.

However, not only does his English capabilities vary wildy between quite good and incomprehensible (showing that he uses his laguage limitations tactically), but his apparant total lack of technical understanding also seems to be a front. A while back on this hread, I posted a number of links to sites about energy. It was a careful mix of woo sites and serious sites. Kumar deftly avoided the trap of citing even a single bit from any of the woo sites, but harvested extensively from the serious sites, so he can actually tell the difference. .... Go figure.

Soo, I'm beginning to think Kumar is a missionaire. He is here to promote his belief system, using whatever ammo he can find. He doesn't necessarily believe his pseudoscience himself (just like I don't for a second think that 1inchCHrist believes sewage workers hear screams from heII), he is just gathering things that he hopes will impress the peasants.

There are not many peasants here, but we will see Kumar spreading his nonsense in places with more fertile soil.

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Old 18th October 2004, 11:34 PM   #301
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I think there is one other factor we've seen on occasion: when everybody throws up their hands in disgust and frustration at Kumar's impenetrable denseness, he'll spin that as having stumped the critics.

This is entirely not the same as waving his stumps at the critics, but such details do not seem to trouble him.
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Old 19th October 2004, 12:46 AM   #302
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh
As I have repeatedly told you, you cannot create information by just by adding energy to a system. You need to use the energy to impose some kind of structure to hold the information. You have not argued how this information could be stored, only that if there ever was any information, you will dissipate it and lose it.
If you burn a substance--will it not store & show differant properties that the origional substance?

Alike this homeopathic remedies are also just an imprint of active substance's photons passing through the carriers. On exitation these remedies should show differant type of photons/energy in comparisn to origional carrier's substance. It should be made possible under kirlian photography which take AURA/released photons photography on exitation stage. We may not able to measure it as we may be chenking it in its grounded/cool stage with low entrophy/randomness.

Otherwise:-

Do you want to say that there is no effect on substance when energy/photons are emited & absorbed several times through them or there is no effect on any substance, when any energy travels through it? As far as I understand differant properties of differant substances are formed in this way. Entropy concept should also work in molecular, atomic or subatomic form of any substance.

Mr.Hans, Zombified, BSM, Rolfe.....,

Pls avoid non-sense or avoid this topic pls--requesting nicely.
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Old 19th October 2004, 01:13 AM   #303
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
It should be made possible under kirlian photography which take AURA/released photons photography on exitation stage.
If you can tell the difference between a homeopathic remedy and an otherwise identical but unpotentized control (e.g. same container, same solvent, no distinguishing labels, etc), you can win Randi's $1,000,000. Gonna go for it?
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Old 19th October 2004, 01:18 AM   #304
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
If you burn a substance--will it not store & show differant properties that the origional substance?

You could call it that. And?

Alike this homeopathic remedies are also just an imprint of active substance's photons passing through the carriers.

No, the process of preparing homeopathic remedies are not like that at all. There is no place the imprint can be stored.

On exitation these remedies should show differant type of photons/energy in comparisn to origional carrier's substance.

No they do not. At that energy level, the wavelenght of the photons is much larger than a molecules (millions of times larger) all tyopes of substances affec them in the same way.

It should be made possible under kirlian photography which take AURA/released photons photography on exitation stage.

Kirlian photography is nonsense.

We may not able to measure it as we may be chenking it in its grounded/cool stage with low entrophy/randomness.

Entropy is irrelevant.

Otherwise:-

Do you want to say that there is no effect on substance when energy/photons are emited & absorbed several times through them or there is no effect on any substance, when any energy travels through it? As far as I understand differant properties of differant substances are formed in this way. Entropy concept should also work in molecular, atomic or subatomic form of any substance.

Here, I can simply cut and paste my reply to your identical post at otherhealth:

__________

Originally Posted by kayveeh
Mr.Hans,

It will be valid theory--whether you accept it or not.

The validity of a theory does certainly not rest on MY acceptance, I grant you that. However, it does rest on the theory having an intact inner logic and on it being acually validated.

Do you want to say that there is no effect on substance when energy/photons are emited & absorbed several times or no effect on any substance when any energy travels through it?

As I have already explained, yes I want to say exactly that for the situation of potentising. The photons you are talking about are low energy photons that are no different from the photons exchanged by all matter at all times at normal temperatures. There exists certain heat sensitive compounds than can be altered by such low temperatures, but medias for homeopathic remedies are not among them.

As far as I understand differant properties of differant substances are formed in this way.

And you understand wrong. Certainly, interaction of high energy photons can alter properties of some substances, but this is an entirely different matter.

Entropy also work in atomic & subatomic form.

As I have already told you elsewhere, entropy is entirely irrelevant to this. Entropy is about the order of energy in closed systems, and preparation of remedies has nothing to do with closed systems. And your statement is completely wrong. Entropy does NOT work on the quantum level. The realization that entropy should cause the universe to slide into what was called violet annihilation long ago was the seed of quantum theory. It is the realization that entropy does NOT apply on the subatomic level that enables us to understand how the universe (which IS a closed system) works at all.

_________________________________

One of your problems is that you think a photon is a photon. This could hardly be more wrong. Photons are the unit for exchange of most forms of energy, but different forms of energy are exchanged using very different photons. As for the difference between the heat wave photons you are talking about and the high-energy photons that interact with molecular structures, you might as well try to compare the effect of hand-thrown paper-balls to rifle bullets.


Mr.Hans, Zombified, BSM, Rolfe.....,

Pls avoid non-sense or avoid this topic pls--requesting nicely.

The only one here writing nonsense is you.
Hans
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Old 19th October 2004, 02:06 AM   #305
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Kumar,

Think about how tiny a water molecule is compared to the remedy substances. There simply is no way you could store information in a water molecules about such enormous structures by exciting a water molecule with photons. First of all, as I have told you repeatedly, you need to have some structure. Right now you only have a single water molecule. You cannot combine different molecules of water and excite each with different photons, because the water molecules are, well, watery! Any structure you might have one moment would be gone the next.

And secondly, the water molecules would just give off new photons until all had the same energy level, and any information would be lost.

Thirdly, your theory - which as we have stated does not work - presupposes some contact with the remedy in order to imprint the water with the information. But with each potentisation you have less and less of the remedy left in the water, and you have no mechanism in your theory to work from one water molecule to the next. And, before you jump to conclusions: objection number 2 above is not the same as spreading the information to all the water molecules! When they all eventually reach the same energy state, they have LOST information. You cannot use a single energy state as information about all the complex molecules in the original remedy. It would be like depicting this thread with a single letter.
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Old 19th October 2004, 02:11 AM   #306
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Mr Hans,

Here I also just cut & paste reply at otherheath as relevant:-

Quote:
As I have already explained, yes I want to say exactly that for the situation of potentising. The photons you are talking about are low energy photons that are no different from the photons exchanged by all matter at all times at normal temperatures. There exists certain heat sensitive compounds than can be altered by such low temperatures, but medias for homeopathic remedies are not among them.

These are low energy photons & so will not effect is wrong thinking. When heat or other form of energy or high energy photons can effect, then low energy photons will also leave some effect at quantum level . Think about effect on us by slight rise or fall in our body nomal temperature. Moreover, energy on potentisation will be an added energy to all times of normal temperatures & also on smaller to smallest particles/molecules.

Pvs. mine:As far as I understand differant properties of differant substances are formed in this way.

And you understand wrong. Certainly, interaction of high energy photons can alter properties of some substances, but this is an entirely different matter.
No this is not differant. High or low energy photons do leave some kind of effect which changes/degrade any substance through which energy travels. But you or MS only want to see gross/visual effect as allopathic medicines. Traveling of light through water or glass refract it. Property of light as well as glass or water also do changes by this travel. Otherwise use of energy will be just useless & then you will not be able to bake any bread or do anything.

Entropy does NOT work on the quantum level. The realization that entropy should cause the universe to slide into what was called violet annihilation long ago was the seed of quantum theory. It is the realization that entropy does NOT apply on the subatomic level that enables us to understand how the universe (which IS a closed system) works at all.

Any change in position & its coming back to origional position of subatomic/fundamental particles can mean & related to entropy. Hear also comes the question of gross level & quantum level OR allopathic level & homeopathic level. I don't understand why modern science in pursuing quantum theory--when it does not pursue or accept homeopathic theory.



One of your problems is that you think a photon is a photon. This could hardly be more wrong. Photons are the unit for exchange of most forms of energy, but different forms of energy are exchanged using very different photons. As for the difference between the heat wave photons you are talking about and the high-energy photons that interact with molecular structures, you might as well try to compare the effect of hand-thrown paper-balls to rifle bullets.

Still you can feel paper balls. When we can act & react just by words or waves--paper ball is a big thing. "but different forms of energy are exchanged using very different photons." this only results differanciation in remedies & other substances.
--------------------

Mine:On exitation these remedies should show differant type of photons/energy in comparisn to origional carrier's substance.

No they do not. At that energy level, the wavelenght of the photons is much larger than a molecules (millions of times larger) all tyopes of substances affec them in the same way.

This interpret the effect of remedies on application which exit by body heat. Thanks.
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Old 19th October 2004, 02:18 AM   #307
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So science is totally wrong, except where Kumar says it is right. Cool.

Quote:
These are low energy photons & so will not effect is wrong thinking. When heat or other form of energy or high energy photons can effect, then low energy photons will also leave some effect at quantum level . Think about effect on us by slight rise or fall in our body nomal temperature. Moreover, energy on potentisation will be an added energy to all times of normal temperatures & also on smaller to smallest particles/molecules.


You simply don't have any idea what you are talking about. I could try to explain further, but it would be a waste of time.

Hans
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Old 19th October 2004, 02:38 AM   #308
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I think we are seing a melt-down here. Kumar has reached the point where he must refute the very physics he just based his argumentation on.

He cites photons, but insist on deciding how photons work, etc.

Pathetic, really.

Hans
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Old 19th October 2004, 02:47 AM   #309
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Yup. I advised him a long time ago to settle for a magic explanation. It would be much easier to postulate for him, and we would be the ignorants, not he.

Even Benveniste, may he rest in peace, acknowledged that in order for water memory to work, physics would have to be reinvented. Alas, he never got the Nobel Prize, but Kumar could take the same road. Who knows where it might end
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Old 19th October 2004, 03:00 AM   #310
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[quote]Originally posted by steenkh

Think about how tiny a water molecule is compared to the remedy substances. There simply is no way you could store information in a water molecules about such enormous structures by exciting a water molecule with photons. First of all, as I have told you repeatedly, you need to have some structure. Right now you only have a single water molecule. You cannot combine different molecules of water and excite each with different photons, because the water molecules are, well, watery! Any structure you might have one moment would be gone the next.
Tell me, if photons emmited by remedies molecules will/can be absorbed by water/alcohol/lactose molecules or not? If can, then whether these will be re-emmited by water.. molecules or not? If yes, some change in water molecules or degradation will/can be there or not? If not, why? Just consider change to any minimal/quantum level?

And secondly, the water molecules would just give off new photons until all had the same energy level, and any information would be lost.

Here change in water molecule/its photodegradation at quantum levels due to photon/energy travel can explain it.

Thirdly, your theory - which as we have stated does not work - presupposes some contact with the remedy in order to imprint the water with the information. But with each potentisation you have less and less of the remedy left in the water, and you have no mechanism in your theory to work from one water molecule to the next. And, before you jump to conclusions: objection number 2 above is not the same as spreading the information to all the water molecules! When they all eventually reach the same energy state, they have LOST information. You cannot use a single energy state as information about all the complex molecules in the original remedy. It would be like depicting this thread with a single letter.

In the initial molecular stages of potentisation, information in both water & active substance(whatever there) will be stored. One part out of previous potency with information imprinted will act as active substance...& this process will go on to any higher potency. More & more degradation of carrier's molecule effected by active substance energy- with imprint of remedy, is the essence of homeopathic theory. 2. We therefore need more water molecules represented by next potency to spread more & more information. Just consider diluting & effect carried over at photon level not on molecular level. On every next potency there will be diluted/degraded information about the molecule of origional remedy to be passed on for furthur dilution or degradation. I just consider that:

"every substance can be effected/changed/degraded by travel of any energy through it just similar/eqivilent to the strength/intensity/type of that energy's photons.

If you don't find it relevant than pls tell me how differant substances can aquire differant properties?
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Old 19th October 2004, 03:15 AM   #311
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Quote:
Originally posted by MRC_Hans
So science is totally wrong, except where Kumar says it is right. Cool.



You simply don't have any idea what you are talking about. I could try to explain further, but it would be a waste of time.

Hans
May be your understanding wrong or may be you don't want it to know with dedication or may be homeopathic community don't want to expose it.

Just suspecting: Some above level homeopaths may be knowing its science BUT don't want to disclose in anticipation that these can be exploited/stolen or HIGHJECTED by CMS--as is evident with other healing systems. It may theresre be a SECRET not IGNORANCE/INABILITY.
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Old 19th October 2004, 03:21 AM   #312
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
May be your understanding wrong or may be you don't want it to know with dedication or may be homeopathic community don't want to expose it.

Just one slight problem here, Kumar: Maybe my understanding is wrong, but that means you theory is wrong, because it builds on that understanding. You built your little theory on conventional understanding of science as informed by me and others, and as found via the internet. If that understanding is wrong, then what do you build you theory on?

Just suspecting: Some above level homeopaths may be knowing its science BUT don't want to disclose in anticipation that these can be exploited/stolen or HIGHJECTED by CMS--as is evident with other healing systems. It may theresre be a SECRET not IGNORANCE/INABILITY.

Har har.
Kumar, you are in a hole. I suggest you stop digging.

Hans
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Old 19th October 2004, 03:27 AM   #313
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Quote:
Originally posted by kumar
Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh
Any structure you might have one moment would be gone the next.
Tell me, if photons emmited by remedies molecules will/can be absorbed by water/alcohol/lactose molecules or not? If can, then whether these will be re-emmited by water.. molecules or not? If yes, some change in water molecules or degradation will/can be there or not? If not, why? Just consider change to any minimal/quantum level?
Where is the structure I was talking about? You have not demonstrated that it is possible to store information just using photons without any structure.

Quote:
And secondly, the water molecules would just give off new photons until all had the same energy level, and any information would be lost.

Here change in water molecule/its photodegradation at quantum levels due to photon/energy travel can explain it.
You are talking nonsense. Degradation is not the same as storing information. It means losing information. Try again.

Quote:
In the initial molecular stages of potentisation, information in both water & active substance(whatever there) will be stored. One part out of previous potency with information imprinted will act as active substance...& this process will go on to any higher potency. More & more degradation of carrier's molecule effected by active substance energy- with imprint of remedy, is the essence of homeopathic theory. 2. We therefore need more water molecules represented by next potency to spread more & more information. Just consider diluting & effect carried over at photon level not on molecular level. On every next potency there will be diluted/degraded information about the molecule of origional remedy to be passed on for furthur dilution or degradation. I just consider that:

"every substance can be effected/changed/degraded by travel of any energy through it just similar/eqivilent to the strength/intensity/type of that energy's photons.
More nonsense. Consider the last sentence. It could have been written by a robot. Try again. So far, you have shown no model of imprinting information on the water molecules, no model for how the water molecules should store the information, and now you do not show a way of spreading this information to other water molecules.

It would make it easier for you if you did not continue to use concepts that have already been rejected a long time ago.

Quote:
If you don't find it relevant than pls tell me how differant substances can aquire differant properties? [/b]
Are you serious? The remedies you are talking about consist of a lot of different molecules (even within a single remedy), and all of them are huge compared to water molecules. Information, i.e. properties, are stored in the form of different composition and different topography. A single of these molecules represent a lot of information, especially when decoded by a complex entity like our body.

(Edited to put Quotes in order)
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Old 19th October 2004, 03:50 AM   #314
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Mr.Hans, Zombified, BSM, Rolfe.....,

Pls avoid non-sense or avoid this topic pls--requesting nicely.
It's a bit difficult to avoid nonsense around here when you yourself are posting reams of it.

Except by putting you on ignore, that is. Now, can I persuade Darat to remove the "view this post" button?

Kumar, have you any idea how conceited you are? You are almost totally ignorant of basic science. You come here asking for information. But then, when you're given some information that doesn't sit well with your ignorant superstitious prejudices, you declare it to be nonsense.

You can't have it both ways. Either respect what the people posting on this thread know, and are trying to tell you (which includes that homoeopathy doesn't work, can't work and has never ever been shown to work), or go away and stop bothering everyone.

Rolfe.
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Old 19th October 2004, 04:24 AM   #315
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Rolfe, just FYI, the term "nonsense" in Kumar's vocabulary, obviously means anything that contradicts his ideas.

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Old 19th October 2004, 04:34 AM   #316
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steenkh,

Do you insists & maintain that information/photon's emited from active substances can't be absorbed & re-emited through carrier's molecule/atoms & so it can't leave the information? What do you say, what can be the size of photon & of carrier's molecule/atom?

I take carrier's molecules as structure for carrying over/on informations in their new form after travel(not exactly travel but take & give or exchange) of photons. At macro level for example you can consider alike water is sweat or salty when sugar or salt is dissolved in that.

May be you can take it like this:-

Photons from active substance & from carriers emited on potentisation>>Higher energy photons of active substance moves towards lower energy photons of carriers>>MIXED?>>absorbed & carried by mixture of active sub. & carriers molecule OR just by carrier's molecules>>excess if any lost as heat.
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Old 19th October 2004, 04:49 AM   #317
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What is this??

Quote:
Photons get the quantum cloning treatment
28 March 2002

Near-perfect copies of single photons have been made in the lab for the first time. Quantum systems cannot be cloned – or duplicated – perfectly, but the development of quantum cryptography and computing relies on a knowledge of exactly how well they can be copied. Antia Lamas-Linares and co-workers at the University of Oxford sent a photon into a crystal where it stimulated the emission of another photon with almost the same properties, confirming theoretical predictions
http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/6/3/21
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Old 19th October 2004, 04:51 AM   #318
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
steenkh,

Do you insists & maintain that information/photon's emited from active substances can't be absorbed & re-emited through carrier's molecule/atoms & so it can't leave the information? What do you say, what can be the size of photon & of carrier's molecule/atom?

The photons emitted because of succussion/trituration are heat waves. Their wavelengths are around 1000nm (nanometers) for the temperatures in question. Molecules are around 0.1 AND SMALLER. Can you stop an ocean wave with a stick? No, because the wave has to be comparable with the object (or smaller) before they can interact. Photons that can interact directly with molecules are six orders of magnitude shorter in wavelenght. Look at the wavelenght diagram you googled for the Cromatherapy thread for reference.

I take carrier's molecules as structure for carrying over/on informations in their new form after travel(not exactly travel but take & give or exchange) of photons.

The structure of a water molecule is H2O, period. If you change it, it is not water anymore.

At macro level for example you can consider alike water is sweat or salty when sugar or salt is dissolved in that.

Because it contains sugar or salt molecules. The information is present in the form of the ACTUAL substance. The saltness of salt water is not a property of the water, it is a proerty of the salt contained in it.
Do you really not understand this?

Hans
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Old 19th October 2004, 04:52 AM   #319
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
What is this??
It is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Hans
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Old 19th October 2004, 05:16 AM   #320
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Quote:
Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Do you really not understand this?

Hans
What do you mean by .1. How molecules & photons are compareable in size & mass. Molecules have sufficient mass by photons have no mass. Then what?

The structure of a water molecule is H2O, period. If you change it, it is not water anymore.

It will be changed on potentisation not on structural level but on energy level--pobably alike as iron changes to magnet.

Because it contains sugar or salt molecules. The information is present in the form of the ACTUAL substance. The saltness of salt water is not a property of the water, it is a proerty of the salt contained in it.

Alike this but on micro level: because it contains active substance and/or water photons...
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