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Tags gravity , homeopathy , photons , quantum mechanics

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Old 19th October 2004, 05:31 AM   #321
MRC_Hans
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
What do you mean by .1. How molecules & photons are compareable in size & mass. Molecules have sufficient mass by photons have no mass. Then what?

Photons have wavelenght. I am talking about wavelenght. There is a close correlation between the wavelenght and the energy of a photon. Short wavelenght means high energy.

(The structure of a water molecule is H2O, period. If you change it, it is not water anymore.)

It will be changed on potentisation not on structural level but on energy level--pobably alike as iron changes to magnet.

No, it will not. The only change in energy lavel is that the temperature may temporarily rise by a few fractions of a degree. This will be the same, no matter what raw substance is involved. It will be the SAME for ALL remedies and for pure water, too.

Alike this but on micro level: because it contains active substance and/or water photons...

There is no such thing as water photons.
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Old 19th October 2004, 06:30 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar

Do you insists & maintain that information/photon's emited from active substances can't be absorbed & re-emited through carrier's molecule/atoms & so it can't leave the information? What do you say, what can be the size of photon & of carrier's molecule/atom?
I know Hans beat me to it, but I have something to add to this one.

If a photon is absorbed by a water molecule, all that has happened is that the water molecule has briefly become more energetic.

When the water reemits a photon to get rid of excess energy, you are left with no trace whatsoever of what molecule originally sent a photon to the water molecule. There is no information left. I have tried to explain this so many times now: You cannot store information just with energy.
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Old 19th October 2004, 06:35 AM   #323
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
In the initial molecular stages of potentisation, information in both water & active substance(whatever there) will be stored. One part out of previous potency with information imprinted will act as active substance...& this process will go on to any higher potency. More & more degradation of carrier's molecule effected by active substance energy- with imprint of remedy, is the essence of homeopathic theory. 2. We therefore need more water molecules represented by next potency to spread more & more information. Just consider diluting & effect carried over at photon level not on molecular level. On every next potency there will be diluted/degraded information about the molecule of origional remedy to be passed on for furthur dilution or degradation.
Ooh, look. The Good Grammar Fairy has paid another visit. Dwayne from Iowa can't quite keep the gibberish going when he wants to make one of his complicated points comprehensible.
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Old 19th October 2004, 07:03 AM   #324
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh
I know Hans beat me to it, but I have something to add to this one.

If a photon is absorbed by a water molecule, all that has happened is that the water molecule has briefly become more energetic.

When the water reemits a photon to get rid of excess energy, you are left with no trace whatsoever of what molecule originally sent a photon to the water molecule. There is no information left. I have tried to explain this so many times now: You cannot store information just with energy.
Yeah, sorry. And your point is pertinent. Even in the case somebody can dig up a process that might result in photons energetic enough to interact with water molecules (piezoelecticity plus electroluminicense or what have you) it still wouldn't cut the cake.

Kumar, your theory is dead. Nay, not even that, because it was never alive.

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Old 19th October 2004, 08:06 AM   #325
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh

If a photon is absorbed by a water molecule, all that has happened is that the water molecule has briefly become more energetic.

When the water reemits a photon to get rid of excess energy, you are left with no trace whatsoever of what molecule originally sent a photon to the water molecule. There is no information left. I have tried to explain this so many times now: You cannot store information just with energy.
This is the only aspect here we differ & mistake. I say that there is some trace or information left to water/carries molecule when photons travels through it. Otherwise there would have been no quantum degradation (may be upgradation also) refraction, reflection, light slow down, heat on glass/water by light passing, sun-moon heat differance, resistance on conduction,prism effect...so on.

I mean just consider photons alike quantum effect on atoms or on atoms/molecules.

There is something on quantum scale showing/creating differant effects on molecules/atoms/molecular force/intra-molecular force of photons or combination of photons with out change in their confrigution or structural formulas/forms which may cause change in form of photo- degradation or upgradation.

Pls explain this concept in dynamic science.
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Old 19th October 2004, 08:10 AM   #326
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Just offtopic;

Whether reflected ray from mirror has same velocity & strength as origional light. Doesn't it slow down or weakens on reflection, why if so?
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Old 19th October 2004, 08:31 AM   #327
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Just offtopic;

whether reflected ray from mirror has same velocity, strength as origional light. Didn't it slow down, why if so?
Kumar, the speed of light is a constant.
That "slow down" you read about somewhere is this:
A photon is travelling at c (the speed of light)
It is absorbed by an atom.
An electron jumps to a higher energy orbit (it gets exited.)
A fraction of a second passes.
The electron decays back to its original energy level, and a photon with the same energy as the original is emited.
The photon continues traveling at c.

If your theory requires that a photon travel slower, or that an atom "degrades"or "upgrades" because it absorbed and emited a photon, then it is inconsistent with current theory and experimental observations.

Now, regarding the "strength", mirrors are not perfect, they will only reflect a % of the incident light, depending on many factors. Feel free to google this, and come up with some theory why this proves homeopathy works.
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Old 19th October 2004, 08:35 AM   #328
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Kumar, I repeat my question: since you believe you can distinguish between homeopathic remedies and an unpotentized control with Kirlian photography, will you apply for the JREF $1M? It appears to me that you have a qualifying claim.
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Old 19th October 2004, 08:47 AM   #329
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Originally posted by Zombified
Kumar, I repeat my question: since you believe you can distinguish between homeopathic remedies and an unpotentized control with Kirlian photography, will you apply for the JREF $1M? It appears to me that you have a qualifying claim.
I think on voting, more votes were that I am a plannet X person--how can then I collect it. This currency may not be valid there. I therefore entitled you people for your GOODNESS & CONTRIBUTIONS. You can divide it if you gets, as you decide. I shall observe & influence from P.X.
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Old 19th October 2004, 08:53 AM   #330
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
I think on voting, more votes were that I am a plannet X person--how can then I collect it. This currency may not be valid there. I therefore entitled you people for your GOODNESS & CONTRIBUTIONS. You can divide it if you gets, as you decide. I shall observe & influence from P.X.
What a cop-out. Show some balls and stand up for your belief in magic water.
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Old 19th October 2004, 09:12 AM   #331
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Originally posted by Donks
Kumar, the speed of light is a constant.
That "slow down" you read about somewhere is this:
A photon is travelling at c (the speed of light)
It is absorbed by an atom.
An electron jumps to a higher energy orbit (it gets exited.)
A fraction of a second passes.
The electron decays back to its original energy level, and a photon with the same energy as the original is emited.
The photon continues traveling at c.

If your theory requires that a photon travel slower, or that an atom "degrades"or "upgrades" because it absorbed and emited a photon, then it is inconsistent with current theory and experimental observations.

Now, regarding the "strength", mirrors are not perfect, they will only reflect a % of the incident light, depending on many factors. Feel free to google this, and come up with some theory why this proves homeopathy works.
Therefore, it takes about one million years for a photon(one chain of photons) to pass across the SUN & touch us just in 8 minutes(I read at other forum).

It is not one photon that travel slower but it is one chain of photons that slows the light. Photon is an elementry/fundamental particle of energy. All the changes & formations OR formations, upgradations & degradations shold be primarily dependant on this photon. HOW? Just think & check.

Are you very sure that photons absorbed on exitation & emitted on decay back(why you said decay) are exactly same in every respect & no trace/effect on exchange can be there? Logically, it looks wrong.

Anyway, pls also tell: when an atom absorb any photon its electron gets exited & move to upper orbit. At this point of orbit shift, didn't it emit photon?
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Old 19th October 2004, 09:14 AM   #332
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
There is something on quantum scale showing/creating differant effects on molecules/atoms/molecular force/intra-molecular force of photons or combination of photons with out change in their confrigution or structural formulas/forms which may cause change in form of photo- degradation or upgradation.
Sure there is. It is called "magic" and is not part of standard quantum theory. You have invented it. How do you know all this? Amazing.

Just because you do not understand quantum theory, it does not mean that you will find the missing secrets of homoeopathy there.

It is indeed possible to use quantum theory to store information, but again, only by imposing a highly structured order. This is not what you will find in water.

I am not in a position to be able to educate you in QT, and given your track record, I doubt if any who are qualified will do it. But I will give it to you that in these last posts it has sometimes seemed to me that you have tried to understand something, even if you ultimately failed.
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Old 19th October 2004, 09:37 AM   #333
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Originally posted by steenkh
Sure there is. It is called "magic" and is not part of standard quantum theory. You have invented it. How do you know all this? Amazing.

Just because you do not understand quantum theory, it does not mean that you will find the missing secrets of homoeopathy there.

It is indeed possible to use quantum theory to store information, but again, only by imposing a highly structured order. This is not what you will find in water.
steenkh,

I was under impession previously that there can be some missing understanding in current understanding & I can try to find & relate it with homeopathic science. However if you say so as per your last post & if it is correct,I shall just mention with my logical understandings that it can be the ONLY missing concept or unattended concept or weakness or not looked or coudn't yet looked concept... in sciene.

Water also does got heated/energized on exposing to photons

Photon pass/exchange leaves no effect in atom/molecule/s looks ABSOLUTELY ILLOGICAL. Nothing in nature is made without a purpose, we should therefore check it.
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Old 19th October 2004, 09:45 AM   #334
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
steenkh,

I was under impession previously that there can be some missing understanding in current understanding & I can try to find & relate it with homeopathic science. However if you say so as per your last post & if it is correct,I shall just mention with my logical understandings that it can be the ONLY missing concept or unattended concept or weakness or not looked or coudn't yet looked concept... in sciene.

Photon pass/exchange leaves no effect in atom/molecule/s looks ABSOLUTELY ILLOGICAL. Nothing in nature is made without a purpose, we should therefore check it.
I am stunned! You actually read it, and understood it! Now I feel prompted to make some wise answer, but in these matters I am really not at my best.

However, I am certain that nobody claims there has been no effect. There is an effect when a photon is absorbed, and there is an effect when a photon is emitted. They just cancel each other out. The physical position of the water molecule has also shifted a bit, but they move around all the time anyway, so this could not carry any worthwhile information.

What I do not know is whether the emitted photon will always be of the same energy. Mind you, even if not, there is still not enough information in the system that a memory effect can work. Two different energy states is not much to use to describe a number of huge molecules.
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Old 19th October 2004, 09:54 AM   #335
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh

What I do not know is whether the emitted photon will always be of the same energy. Mind you, even if not, there is still not enough information in the system that a memory effect can work. Two different energy states is not much to use to describe a number of huge molecules.
No, it won't. There are actually three possibilities to be considered. First, that the photon is absorbed and not re-emitted at all. This results in the transfer of energy to the absorbing molecule, in the form of kinetic energy that we experience as heat. In other words, if I put something in the sunlight, it will get hot.

The second possibility is that a photon of equivalent energy is emitted. In this case, there is no net energy transfer to the absorbing molecule and the final state of the molecule will be the same.

The third possibility is the absorption of a higher-energy and the emission of a lower-energy photon. This, for example, is why some compounds appear to glow under "black light," really ultraviolet. Although the UV light is invisible, the objects will actually absorb UV wavelengths and re-emit it as lower energy photons (in the visible range).

In practice, all objects will display a mixture of all three behaviors; something like glass, water, or white paper will typically have more of the second case, while black cloth will have more of the first. In fact, the reason that a black object appears black is largely because it absorbs, instead of re-emits, the majority of photons.
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Old 19th October 2004, 10:43 AM   #336
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Quote:
Originally posted by new drkitten
No, it won't. There are actually three possibilities to be considered. First, that the photon is absorbed and not re-emitted at all. This results in the transfer of energy to the absorbing molecule, in the form of kinetic energy that we experience as heat. In other words, if I put something in the sunlight, it will get hot.

The second possibility is that a photon of equivalent energy is emitted. In this case, there is no net energy transfer to the absorbing molecule and the final state of the molecule will be the same.

The third possibility is the absorption of a higher-energy and the emission of a lower-energy photon. This, for example, is why some compounds appear to glow under "black light," really ultraviolet. Although the UV light is invisible, the objects will actually absorb UV wavelengths and re-emit it as lower energy photons (in the visible range).

In practice, all objects will display a mixture of all three behaviors; something like glass, water, or white paper will typically have more of the second case, while black cloth will have more of the first. In fact, the reason that a black object appears black is largely because it absorbs, instead of re-emits, the majority of photons.
steenkh,

I think it is quite fair deal. Every activity in universe may be alike this. Many thanks drkitten. Can all of you discuss & expand it?
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Old 19th October 2004, 11:18 AM   #337
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Originally posted by Kumar
steenkh,

I think it is quite fair deal. Every activity in universe may be alike this. Many thanks drkitten. Can all of you discuss & expand it?
Not much to discuss and expand. When a molecule absorbs a photon, almost by definition it acquires [kinetic] energy, which is experienced at a macro-level as increased heat.

In other words, if I leave a bottle of water out in the sun, it will eventually become warm. This is well-understood, elementary, physics. THere is, however, no information carried in this additional energy, as heat is essentially random, unstructured, uninformed kinetic energy. In particular, there is no change in the structure or organization of water molecules in the bottle -- the molecules are just milling about faster than they were before.
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Old 19th October 2004, 11:29 AM   #338
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Kumar, why won't you take Randi's challenge if you think you can distinguish between homeopathic remedies and plain water? $1,000,000? Fame? A whole new field of research with you as founder?
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Old 19th October 2004, 11:47 AM   #339
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Old 19th October 2004, 12:47 PM   #340
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh
Sure there is. It is called "magic" and is not part of standard quantum theory. You have invented it.
No, he really didn't....

Rolfe.
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Old 19th October 2004, 07:09 PM   #341
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new drkitten,steenkh,

What then you think is the purpose of photons absorption & re-emittion? How water molecules or photons from water can behave on photons exposures to them?

I previously asked one more question:-

When a atom/molecule absorb a photon its electron are exited & will shift to next orbit & will then decays back to origional orbit. Now my question is: How many photons will be re-emitted by this & if there can be differance in strength/value of photons emitted on shift of electron to upper orbit & on decaying back? Furthur, Is there a orbit shift to lower than origional orbit & if there how & what type of photons it will be emit?
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Old 19th October 2004, 08:07 PM   #342
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Kumar, those are secrets which we are sworn to reveal only to those who are willing to explain why they won't take the JREF $1,000,000 challenge.
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Old 19th October 2004, 11:12 PM   #343
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Atoms with low atomic numbers may have property to be easily & more exited than higher one--making those as good candidte to absorb& exite easily & more & acc. re-emit easily & more. Is it ok?
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Old 19th October 2004, 11:42 PM   #344
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Atoms with low atomic numbers may have property to be easily & more exited than higher one--making those as good candidte to absorb& exite easily & more & acc. re-emit easily & more. Is it ok?
I had most of a nice long post explaining this, but then I remembered you hadn't explained why you won't demonstrate detection of homeopathic remedies with Kirlian photography for the $1,000,000 prize.

It's a simple question, Kumar.
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Old 20th October 2004, 12:49 AM   #345
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Zombified,

As asked previously & nicely, JUST STOP NONSENSE!
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Old 20th October 2004, 01:37 AM   #346
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar

What then you think is the purpose of photons absorption & re-emittion? How water molecules or photons from water can behave on photons exposures to them?
What is the purpose of anything? We exist because the laws of nature happen to suit a world where we can exist. The emission and absorption of photons are essential features of our world and it has a crucial in everything around us.

All these questions of photons and emissions are not my area, so I will let others answer if they like. My area is information technology, and I can assure you that the energy states of water molecules, no matter how many photons you shoot at them, cannot hold the information you want.

It is getting tedious to see you wriggle around every objection and start the same line of enquiry anew: "Do atoms change when absorbing a photon", and so on and so on. While the answers can be fascinating in themselves, your purpose is to find some hitherto hidden way of storing huge information within a single water molecule. And no matter how often you are told this, you will just rephrase the question in some other way.

Believe me, if there had been a way to store all this information in a water molecule, we would have told you, and others, like Jacques Benveniste, may he rest in peace!, would have jumped on it long ago.

If you really copuld store such complex information within a water molecule, homoeopathy would only be one of many potetial uses of this. Nature itself has created huge molecules like DNA in order to store such information.
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Old 20th October 2004, 01:38 AM   #347
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Atoms with low atomic numbers may have property to be easily & more exited than higher one--making those as good candidte to absorb& exite easily & more & acc. re-emit easily & more. Is it ok?
No, it is more a matter of the number of electrons in the outer shell. How is all this relevant to your ideas about homeopathy?

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Old 20th October 2004, 02:58 AM   #348
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No, it is more a matter of the number of electrons in the outer shell. How is all this relevant to your ideas about homeopathy?

Hans
Yes, but it may need less energy to exite & shift to few lower orbits that from higher orbits. Looking at energy travel from higher level to lower level, low energy photons of active substances on potentisation AND instant effect on application-- can be relevant to this concept.

steenkh,

It is also indicated otherwise to me that, this photon travel/exchange across the atoms/molecules leaves no information or permanent effect, but logically it seems to be a MISS or WEAKNESS of modern research. I don't see any other possibility as yet. As is also indicated elsewhere, science to pursue to check & find this miss or weakness, as whole concept of creation, exstance, change or modification from basic level can be doubtful because:-

Primeenergy >> photons >>subatomics>>atomics >>molecules >>complex molecules/cells >>bigger molecular/cellular structures >>>>>>present existance <><><>.......Prime energy
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Old 20th October 2004, 03:05 AM   #349
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar

It is also indicated otherwise to me that, this photon travel/exchange across the atoms/molecules leaves no information or permanent effect, but logically it seems to be a MISS or WEAKNESS of modern research. I don't see any other possibility as yet.
I do not follow your logic. I see it as a failure or weakness of homoeopathic research (which is AFAIK non-existant) that it tries to find a theoretical foundation for something that has not been shown to function in practice!

So far, it is only the belief of you and the other homoeopaths that support homoeopathy. Prove the effect, and then you will have plenty of willing scientists to find the cause! (But I guess you want that Nobel Prize for yourself)
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Old 20th October 2004, 03:33 AM   #350
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Yes, but it may need less energy to exite & shift to few lower orbits that from higher orbits. Looking at energy travel from higher level to lower level, low energy photons of active substances on potentisation AND instant effect on application-- can be relevant to this concept.

There are differences in the energy levels needed to excite different atoms, but as I already have told you, this is not enough. The difference in energy level of the photons from the slight heat increase in potentization and the energetic photons that can interact with atoms is a hundred thousand times. I have told you this several times, now. PLEASE try to understand it. We are talking about entirely different realms. If you stand on a ladder, you get closer to the moon, but no ladder will ever get you to the moon.


It is also indicated otherwise to me that, this photon travel/exchange across the atoms/molecules leaves no information or permanent effect, but logically it seems to be a MISS or WEAKNESS of modern research.

No, it is a MISS or WEAKNESS of your idea.

I don't see any other possibility as yet.

The other possibility is that YOU ARE WRONG. Do you have such high thoughts about yourself that you will rather think that all scientists are wrong than you?

*snip*
Kumar, it is very simple. You are mistaken. Get to grips with it.

Hans
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Old 20th October 2004, 03:48 AM   #351
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Mr.Hans,

In short, do you want to ascertain/ensure me "absolutely" that photons emitted by active substances on potentisation, can't influence carrier's molecules or photons emitted by carrier's molecules?
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Old 20th October 2004, 05:08 AM   #352
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Hello all,

Due to recent uncertainities, deadlock in basic understandings & as TIRED, it looks there will be just waste of time in furthur disscussions in this informative & interesting tread.

It is therefore, closed from my side as we can use our time for some other fresh topic.

Thanks to all & special thanks to those who really contributed well.

Best regards.
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Old 20th October 2004, 05:16 AM   #353
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Probably a wise decision.
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Old 20th October 2004, 05:35 AM   #354
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Mr.Hans,

In short, do you want to ascertain/ensure me "absolutely" that photons emitted by active substances on potentisation, can't influence carrier's molecules or photons emitted by carrier's molecules?
Yes, as absolute as anything can be. If they do, it is not just more advanced scientific knowledge, it will require a complete revision of large parts of the research in physics during hte last century or so.

Hans
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Old 20th October 2004, 08:38 AM   #355
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
As asked previously & nicely, JUST STOP NONSENSE!
What nonsense, Kumar? I just asked you a question. Is it so hard to answer?
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Old 20th October 2004, 09:06 AM   #356
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Zombified,

Sorry, I become bit exicited as I hate this type of money--or may be excess money.

Mr.Hans,

Ok, I shall now try to find that how 'Energy substances & matter substances means fundamental particles, subatomics, atomics & molecular substances can be differanciated in their quantum forms without change in their structural & chemical change. Means: how two same atoms or molecules can be differanciated on their quantum level?

Let us hope for the best.

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Old 20th October 2004, 09:17 AM   #357
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar

Ok, I shall now try to find that how 'Energy substances & matter substances means fundamental particles, subatomics, atomics & molecular substances can be differanciated in their quantum forms without change in their structural & chemical change. Means: how two same atoms or molecules can be differanciated on their quantum level?
I've just looked up the phone number for the Karolinska Institute so I'm ready when you come up with those answers.
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Old 20th October 2004, 09:44 AM   #358
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Sorry, I become bit exicited as I hate this type of money--or may be excess money.
Oh, now who can find Kumar's excited post when he was first told about the Challenge and the money that could be his if he could tell a remedy from the stock solvent? His first instinct was to say that he'd try it.

Then he realised it wasn't quite so simple.

I still have half a mind to the fact that this thread might be his research to try to find some way of winning the million. As if a properly controlled HPT or even some sort of clinical trial wouldn't be easier - assuming what he says about homoeopathy working is true.

Pity it isn't, really.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th October 2004, 09:49 AM   #359
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Zombified,

Means: how two same atoms or molecules can be differanciated on their quantum level?

Let us hope for the best.

E.g. position, speed, spin, excitation and number of electrons protons neutrons, maybe other things i forgot.

But if they are the same, except for e.g. position, and you cannot keep track of their positions, then you are lost and cannot determine any difference between the two and you would not notice them switching position for example.

Hope thats answer to your question.

Carn
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Old 20th October 2004, 10:47 AM   #360
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Sorry, I become bit exicited as I hate this type of money--or may be excess money.
Well, let's ignore the money aspect and concentrate on the test. After all, you can always use the money to endow a school of homeopathy. Anonymously, if need be.

Can you demonstrate distinguishing homeopathically prepared remedies from a non-potentized control with Kirlian photography?
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