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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 12th February 2020, 12:18 PM   #2721
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
After moments of consideration, I propose a new rule of thumb, akin to Godwin's Law: The Law of Trump's Accusation Farts
LOTAF, for short. But we already have a word for that: projection.
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:20 PM   #2722
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Quote:
Not usually, no. In this case there is, and the timing of the tweet is irrelevant. We all know what happened : Trump got the news, unloaded on Barr, and Barr got on the case. There'll be no paper-trail, of course, not in Trump's White House and Barr's DoJ.
A conspiracy theory that contains its own rationale for why it cannot be proven and hence cannot be disproven either. Nice.
Around here, a 'conspiracy theory' is some narrative to an event that is easily refuted.... something that falls apart because it contradicts evidence, or is internally inconsistent, or leads to such convoluted logic that it can be dismissed thanks to Occam's razor.

On the other hand, the idea that Trump contacted Barr doesn't exactly fit the mold...

We know that Barr and Trump both lack integrity, so their claims can be easily dismissed. And in highly-politicized cases like this, sentencing recommendations would probably be vetted through people's superiors before hand, so going back to change sentencing recommendations means that either 1) there was interference from the whitehouse to cause them to change the sentencing recommendations, or 2) people at the DOJ were not really paying attention to what was going on.

So, the idea that Trump interferred in this case is not contradicted by evidence, nor is it logically inconsistent. In fact, it is actually the most likely alternative.
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:22 PM   #2723
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
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Impeach him again.
What good would that do?
Impeach him 9 times, and the 10th one is free.
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:31 PM   #2724
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What good would that do?
You could convict him on the first day after the Senate flipped m
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:35 PM   #2725
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
We know that Barr and Trump both lack integrity, so their claims can be easily dismissed. And in highly-politicized cases like this, sentencing recommendations would probably be vetted through people's superiors before hand, so going back to change sentencing recommendations means that either 1) there was interference from the whitehouse to cause them to change the sentencing recommendations, or 2) people at the DOJ were not really paying attention to what was going on.

So, the idea that Trump interferred in this case is not contradicted by evidence, nor is it logically inconsistent. In fact, it is actually the most likely alternative.
Well, no. First off, it is a conspiracy theory, because it requires the complicity of the whole chain of command in lying about what happened. Whatever you think of Trump and Barr, that is... unlikely.

Second, as for people in the DOJ not really paying attention, I think the recent IG report already demonstrated that happens. There have also been reports that the attorneys charging the case told their superiors that they were going to recommend a lighter sentence than they ended up recommending.
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:37 PM   #2726
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Around here, a 'conspiracy theory' is some narrative to an event that is easily refuted.... something that falls apart because it contradicts evidence, or is internally inconsistent, or leads to such convoluted logic that it can be dismissed thanks to Occam's razor.

On the other hand, the idea that Trump contacted Barr doesn't exactly fit the mold...
It was all nicely public on twitter, so there is that going in its favor. He complains publically about sentence, Barr hears this and jumps into action. This is of course exactly how law and order republicans want it to work.
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:39 PM   #2727
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Are you suggesting it's not true? That Barr didn't order that the sentence recommendation be changed? Do you actually believe that he might not have? Barr serves Trump (and through him, God). Of course he did it.
If the sentence recommendation is disproportionate to the crime, then why would it need to go any higher than the charging attorneys' immediate supervisors to get changed? Those immediate supervisors should change it, if it's a bad recommendation. So even supposing Trump is willing to order Barr to do it and Barr is willing to follow that order, that still wouldn't mean it actually happened that way.

Do you have an argument for why the sentence recommendation was typical for the convicted crime?
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:41 PM   #2728
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Well, no. First off, it is a conspiracy theory, because it requires the complicity of the whole chain of command in lying about what happened. Whatever you think of Trump and Barr, that is... unlikely.
Exactly it is as crazy as connecting people who say "will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest" and any dead priests. It is a rhetorical question, like "would be a shame if this place caught fire" or "It would be a shame if you never got your Congressional sanctioned aid"

Really I don't understand why Italian men commenting on how it would be horrible if something bad were to happen is taken as anything other than mere hypotheticals. They certainly would be wrong to ever interpret as a threat.


Clearly we have a lot of "mob bosses" who only ever talked in hypotheticals that need to be free.
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:46 PM   #2729
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" First off, it is a conspiracy theory, because it requires the complicity of the whole chain of command in lying about what happened."

Right, all two of them. Barr and Trump.
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:47 PM   #2730
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Trump Tweets

It is very important for our Country’s SECURITY that the United States Senate not vote for the Iran War Powers Resolution. We are doing very well with Iran and this is not the time to show weakness. Americans overwhelmingly support our attack on terrorist Soleimani....

....If my hands were tied, Iran would have a field day. Sends a very bad signal. The Democrats are only doing this as an attempt to embarrass the Republican Party. Don’t let it happen!
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:49 PM   #2731
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Well, no. First off, it is a conspiracy theory, because it requires the complicity of the whole chain of command in lying about what happened. Whatever you think of Trump and Barr, that is... unlikely.
Uhh, no.

Conspiracy theories often fail because they require the participation of dozens (if not hundreds) of people, many of whom might be working against their own self interest.

In this case, you need: Trump (no need to involve anyone else in the white house), Barr, and a small number of Barr's underlings, many of whom would be Trump appointees. No big huge 'chain of command', just a small little cabal, a tiny handful of people.
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:52 PM   #2732
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly it is as crazy as connecting people who say "will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest" and any dead priests. It is a rhetorical question, like "would be a shame if this place caught fire" or "It would be a shame if you never got your Congressional sanctioned aid"
There are two problems with this position.

1) You are assuming, without evidence or argument, that the initial sentencing recommendation wasn't excessive. Take away that assumption, and revising the sentence recommendation becomes proper and so much of this speculation becomes pointless.
2) The DOJ says they reached a decision to revise the sentencing recommendation before Trump tweeted.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/sto...recommendation
Justice Department officials made the decision to shorten the sentencing recommendation on Monday night, shortly before Trump tweeted that it was a “miscarriage of justice,” according to a Justice Department spokeswoman. Officials said no one at the Justice Department had discussed the decision with the president.
So unless there's a conspiracy within the DOJ (and not just Barr) to lie about what happened, then no, it cannot be what you're claiming it is. Well, time travel would work too, but I'll assume you agree that we can discount that possibility. Do you believe there's a DOJ conspiracy about this?
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:53 PM   #2733
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Has it been mentioned that the original prosecutors recommended sentencing based on approved guidelines of the sentencing commission? Also, the revised sentencing from the DOJ does not mention the aggravating factors that the original sentencing recommendation lists.

It stinks of Trump/Barr intervention because it makes no legal sense at all to revise the sentencing recommendations.
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:53 PM   #2734
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Uhh, no.

Conspiracy theories often fail because they require the participation of dozens (if not hundreds) of people, many of whom might be working against their own self interest.

In this case, you need: Trump (no need to involve anyone else in the white house), Barr, and a small number of Barr's underlings, many of whom would be Trump appointees. No big huge 'chain of command', just a small little cabal, a tiny handful of people.
Let's see if you can name this cabal. Who is in on it?
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:55 PM   #2735
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I see we are in step 1 of the formula of Trump defense. It won't be too long until we are at the point where Trumpanzees will say "well, he did it, but that's okay"...
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:55 PM   #2736
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The recommendation was EXACTLY following sentencing guidelines.
If they had pushed the guidelines to the limit, they could have given him 50 years.

If you ok with this, you have given up on the Rule of Law.
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:57 PM   #2737
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To Trumpanzees, Trump is the law.
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Old 12th February 2020, 12:59 PM   #2738
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Has it been mentioned that the original prosecutors recommended sentencing based on approved guidelines of the sentencing commission? Also, the revised sentencing from the DOJ does not mention the aggravating factors that the original sentencing recommendation lists.

It stinks of Trump/Barr intervention because it makes no legal sense at all to revise the sentencing recommendations.
Hey, just because he posted a picture of the judge in crosshairs shouldn't be held against him.
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Old 12th February 2020, 01:01 PM   #2739
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If the sentence recommendation is disproportionate to the crime, then why would it need to go any higher than the charging attorneys' immediate supervisors to get changed? Those immediate supervisors should change it, if it's a bad recommendation. So even supposing Trump is willing to order Barr to do it and Barr is willing to follow that order, that still wouldn't mean it actually happened that way.

Do you have an argument for why the sentence recommendation was typical for the convicted crime?
No it wasn't. But the judge can do what they want within a range.
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Old 12th February 2020, 01:06 PM   #2740
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Well, no. First off, it is a conspiracy theory, because it requires the complicity of the whole chain of command in lying about what happened. Whatever you think of Trump and Barr, that is... unlikely.
For scale, is that more or less unlikely than 52 Republican Senators being complicit in covering up Presidential high crimes and misdemeanors?
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Old 12th February 2020, 01:13 PM   #2741
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
After moments of consideration, I propose a new rule of thumb, akin to Godwin's Law: The Law of Trump's Accusation Farts



"Whenever Trump makes an accusation against some one, he is also guilty of that same thing. In other words, he who smelt it has also dealt it."



The only known exception is that Trump was never born in Kenya.



I'm open to feedback/modifications.
Our was he? Let's demand proof he wasn't.
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Old 12th February 2020, 01:15 PM   #2742
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

Fake News @CNN and MSDNC have not surprisingly refused to talk about my record setting number of voters in New Hampshire (and in Iowa). That’s why they are poorly rated Fake News! I will win both states in November.

Congratulations to Attorney General Bill Barr for taking charge of a case that was totally out of control and perhaps should not have even been brought. Evidence now clearly shows that the Mueller Scam was improperly brought & tainted. Even Bob Mueller lied to Congress!

Two months in jail for a Swamp Creature, yet 9 years recommended for Roger Stone (who was not even working for the Trump Campaign). Gee, that sounds very fair! Rogue prosecutors maybe? The Swamp! @foxandfriends @TuckerCarlson

@dagenmcdowell, “Every Democrat is running to raise taxes. She (Pocahontas) lied about her ethnicity, that was her problem.” @MariaBartiromo
So true Dagen!
I would like to see him have Mueller charged for lying to Congress.
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Old 12th February 2020, 01:40 PM   #2743
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not sure that's a good idea. It might make the Democrats look desperate.

In any event, now the focus should be on the election, and making sure that it's won by a good enough margin that Trump can't convince those on the fence that it was illegitimate and break US democracy.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, I'm saying exactly what I said.
Ok. Perhaps I am wrong.

You are saying that there are people who will believe POTUS’s claim of voter fraud if the election is very close, but will not believe his claims of voter fraud if there is a landslide. And you are assuming that there are enough of these people that they could make a difference in what happens in the immediate aftermath of a Dem win.

How many people fall into this category?
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Old 12th February 2020, 01:51 PM   #2744
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I see we are in step 1 of the formula of Trump defense. It won't be too long until we are at the point where Trumpanzees will say "well, he did it, but that's okay"...
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...782855680?s=20

Trump Tweets: Congratulations to Attorney General Bill Barr for taking charge of a case that was totally out of control and perhaps should not have even been brought. Evidence now clearly shows that the Mueller Scam was improperly brought & tainted. Even Bob Mueller lied to Congress!


I see this tweet has already been quoted. Is it still just a conspiracy theory? Is it time to admit Trump did it and then defend the action now?
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Old 12th February 2020, 01:51 PM   #2745
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Then what should we do?
You keep on screaming for Americans to do something, but don't tell us what, from a pragmatic point of view, we can do.
Oh well.
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Old 12th February 2020, 01:56 PM   #2746
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Well, at least we know Stubby McBonespurs has his priorities right...

Badgers? Badgers? We don't need no stinkin' Badgers!

From: https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...badgers-2020-2
When Reince Priebus was the White House chief of staff, President Donald Trump repeatedly asked him whether badgers, the state animal of Priebus' home state of Wisconsin, are "mean to people," how they "work," and how aggressive they can get. That's according to "Sinking in the Swamp: How Trump's Minions and Misfits Poisoned Washington," a new book by the Daily Beast reporters Lachlan Markay and Asawin Suebsaeng....Trump would often "waste Priebus's time" during briefings about foreign and domestic policy by pelting him with questions about badgers...

Well, at least Trump didn't propose building a wall around Wisconsin to keep all the badgers in. (Although since they voted for Trump in 2016, I guess it wouldn't be that big of a loss.)

You know, if it were any other president, you would think this is a joke article. But with Trump, it does sound extremely plausible.
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Old 12th February 2020, 02:18 PM   #2747
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, at least Trump didn't propose building a wall around Wisconsin to keep all the badgers in. (Although since they voted for Trump in 2016, I guess it wouldn't be that big of a loss.)
Harsh, but fair
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Old 12th February 2020, 02:31 PM   #2748
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If the sentence recommendation is disproportionate to the crime, then why would it need to go any higher than the charging attorneys' immediate supervisors to get changed?
Lets talk about this case, not hypotheticals.


Quote:
Those immediate supervisors should change it, if it's a bad recommendation.
No doubt. In this particular case the chain of command is Trump-Barr-Timothy Shea (acting US attorney in DC). Shea is a former aide of Barr, put in place recently by the very same Barr.

Quote:
So even supposing Trump is willing to order Barr to do it and Barr is willing to follow that order, that still wouldn't mean it actually happened that way.
But it did, didn't it? Your man Trump has been praising Barr for taking control of the case. He's not shy about it. Why are you?

Quote:
Do you have an argument for why the sentence recommendation was typical for the convicted crime?
The sentence recommendation was in regard to this particular case, and was regarded as appropriate by the prosecutors. They are clearly in a position to judge what the typical sentence for witness interference and obstruction of justice is. Being lawyers they'll have the necessary books to hand.
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Old 12th February 2020, 02:57 PM   #2749
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As a layperson, I do not have the faintest idea of what is "fair" for this kind of trial. Rationally, all I can do is trust in Trump.
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Old 12th February 2020, 03:41 PM   #2750
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
You could convict him on the first day after the Senate flipped m
You would need two thirds to do that, and I doubt the Senate would flip that much.....
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Old 12th February 2020, 04:57 PM   #2751
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I would like to see him have Mueller charged for lying to Congress.
So would he.
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Old 12th February 2020, 05:01 PM   #2752
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Trump Tweeted

Lots of endorsements for candidates who all love your great law enforcement officers, the military, 'Vets' the wall and who will protect your second amendment.
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Old 12th February 2020, 05:05 PM   #2753
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Trump Tweets

Ending surprise medical billing moving ahead in Congress! Thanks to Ways & Means and Education/Labor Committees for your work on Bills to protect patients and end medical bill ripoffs! Work with Energy & Commerce, HELP committees to send BIPARTISAN bill to my desk!
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Old 12th February 2020, 05:17 PM   #2754
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You would need two thirds to do that, and I doubt the Senate would flip that much.....
This is true. However, we might get a real impeachment trial in the Senate, one where witnesses and evidence are allowed.
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Old 12th February 2020, 05:41 PM   #2755
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I noted Trump's attack on Romney's Mormon religion.
Wonder if Trump did that partially to cement his support from the Christian Fundies, who do not like the Mormons very much for theological reasons....
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Old 12th February 2020, 06:02 PM   #2756
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I noted Trump's attack on Romney's Mormon religion.
Wonder if Trump did that partially to cement his support from the Christian Fundies, who do not like the Mormons very much for theological reasons....
They don't like Catholics very much either, but Trumps got to be careful there because of the makeup of th Supreme Court.
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Old 12th February 2020, 06:38 PM   #2757
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you have an argument for why the sentence recommendation was typical for the convicted crime?
Yes:

Quote:
The filing notes that this recommendation is “consistent with the applicable advisory Guidelines.”
Link
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Old 12th February 2020, 06:44 PM   #2758
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The idea that 7-9 years in prison is extreme for someone convicted of such serious crimes as Stone does not hold up. I have seen no justification for the DOJ's claim that 7-9 years would be "extreme and excessive and grossly disproportionate to Stone’s offenses."

Quote:
Federal sentencing guidelines recommended a range of 87 to 108 months in prison for Stone, according to the prosecutors’ filing.
Quote:
However, as much as 62 months of that recommended sentence comes from an enhancement under federal guidelines related to witness tampering.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/10/roge...utors-say.html

Stone was convicted of witness tampering by trying to intimidate Randy Credico into backing up his lies, including threats to kill Credico's dog.

The max sentence for lying to Congress, which Stone did five times, is 5 years in prison for each count.

Quote:
He faces up to 20 years in prison on the tampering count and up to five years in prison for each of the other charges.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...ctment-mueller
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Old 12th February 2020, 06:47 PM   #2759
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I noted Trump's attack on Romney's Mormon religion.
Wonder if Trump did that partially to cement his support from the Christian Fundies, who do not like the Mormons very much for theological reasons....
I wonder if that might cause trump problems in Utah. He did win the state in 2016, but with less than 50% of the vote. (Granted it was a 3 way split, with an independent candidate from Utah doing quite well, but it shows Utah voters are willing to deviate from the Republicans.

Could attacking the Mormon religion put Utah in play? Probably not, but nice to think about.

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Old 12th February 2020, 06:50 PM   #2760
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The idea that 7-9 years in prison is extreme for someone convicted of such serious crimes as Stone does not hold up. I have seen no justification for the DOJ's claim that 7-9 years would be "extreme and excessive and grossly disproportionate to Stone’s offenses."




https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/10/roge...utors-say.html

Stone was convicted of witness tampering by trying to intimidate Randy Credico into backing up his lies, including threats to kill Credico's dog.

The max sentence for lying to Congress, which Stone did five times, is 5 years in prison for each count.


https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...ctment-mueller
Plus don't forget, prior to the trial he violated a gag order (and posted an image of the judge with crosshairs behind her).

That illustrates that stone was unrepentant and disrespectful of the whole legal process.

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