ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 3rd September 2019, 01:47 PM   #1
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,040
war wreckage and environmentalism

Watching German tv today a news magazine featured an environmentalist group trying to get 2nd world war sunken ships cleaned up.

Medical waste, fuel tanks still with fuel and a slew of other wartime residues. This was around the waters shared between Poland and Germany but the China Sea to the north of Oz is another area with enough underwater wreckage to consider.

How is this handled wherever you are? War graves to be left as is, environmental disaster to be cleaned up ( preferably with any other entity picking up the bill ) or?

In Mexico it's salvaged for metals. Old warships to out of service old equiptment of any sort is scrapped, but near none is wartime grave., usually more recent.
8enotto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2019, 01:54 PM   #2
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,098
Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Watching German tv today a news magazine featured an environmentalist group trying to get 2nd world war sunken ships cleaned up.

Medical waste, fuel tanks still with fuel and a slew of other wartime residues. This was around the waters shared between Poland and Germany but the China Sea to the north of Oz is another area with enough underwater wreckage to consider.

How is this handled wherever you are? War graves to be left as is, environmental disaster to be cleaned up ( preferably with any other entity picking up the bill ) or?

In Mexico it's salvaged for metals. Old warships to out of service old equiptment of any sort is scrapped, but near none is wartime grave., usually more recent.
The wreckage of the battleship Arizona in Pearl Harbor still leaks oil, just a few drops making their way to the surface every few minutes. Veterans and others see this as a sort of symbolic thing, almost like some shrines have eternal flames - the oil leaking to the surface shows that the memory is still alive, that the war is not ancient history.

In the past there has been concern that as the wreckage continues to rust away, a storm even or other sort of disturbance could rupture some of the oil tanks in the wreckage and release all of the oil at once. Not good either.

I think they eventually found a middle ground of mapping the wreck to figure out where the oil tanks on the ship were, and draining most of the them while leaving enough to allow some dripping to the surface to continue.


ETA: Found a link, I was half wrong. The Arizona still leaks oil, but they have not removed any. There may still be as much as a half a million gallons left.

Studying the Effects of the Black Tears of USS Arizona
Quote:
Part of the issue comes from the oil that has been leaking out of the ship since the attack – the Tears of USS Arizona. The National Park Service estimates that there is still approximately a half-million gallons left onboard. The leak has been slow, but has proven to be detrimental both to the remains of USS Arizona and the surrounding environment.

Last edited by crescent; 3rd September 2019 at 02:29 PM.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2019, 01:58 PM   #3
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 22,579
The big issue is that many of these wrecks, including Arizona, are considered graves. This is relatively new, of course, wrecks in the North Sea from the battle of Jutland were heavily salvaged between the wars.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2019, 02:54 PM   #4
Axxman300
Illuminator
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 3,958
Rogue salvage teams are already stealing sunken ships for scrap:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng...ww2-shipwrecks

Quote:
The Guardian revealed last year that the wrecks of some of Britain’s most celebrated warships had been illegally salvaged, leading to uproar among veterans and archaeologists, who accused the UK government of not moving fast enough to protect underwater graves.

Three ships – HMS Exeter, HMS Encounter, and HMS Electra – contained the bodies of more than 150 sailors. All sank during operations in the Java Sea in 1942, one of the costliest sea skirmishes for the Allies during the war.

In 2014, the wrecks of the HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales and the graves for more than 800 Royal Navy sailors were found to have been damaged by scavengers.
Interesting times...
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2019, 03:57 PM   #5
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 44,962
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Rogue salvage teams are already stealing sunken ships for scrap:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng...ww2-shipwrecks



Interesting times...
Nothing new. Remember the looting of the Titanic?

Thing about the USS Arizona is draining the oil tank might be one hell of a job given the shape the tank might be in.

Of course I could argue that the cost of any salvage/repair to the Arizona should be sent to the Japanese Govenrment….
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.

Last edited by dudalb; 3rd September 2019 at 04:01 PM.
dudalb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd September 2019, 04:02 PM   #6
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,040
A lot of sticky issues it seems. Criminal scrapping in Asiatic waters especially the international waters is making quite a few angry. War vets to environmental groups all have their own reasons.

Who pays should a wreck be cleaned up seems even harder to resolve. A couple off the Mexico coast everyone wants the scrap price, nobody wants to pay to move them to a cutting dock.
8enotto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2019, 01:44 AM   #7
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,597
Maybe a move to a more appropriate section of the forum?
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

Last edited by P.J. Denyer; 4th September 2019 at 01:46 AM.
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2019, 10:12 AM   #8
Mikemcc
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 1,793
Some have had some steel salvaged for use in medical instrumentation and specialist radiation monitoring systems. The steel hasn't been subjeted to the same level of contamination from the various nuclear blasts.
Mikemcc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2019, 12:32 PM   #9
Drewbot
Philosopher
 
Drewbot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 7,145
I'm not so much worried about fuel, as that will eventually degrade.

What I'd hate is for a scrapper to uncork some lethal chemical accidentally.

I'm thinking of Mustard Gas (chemical weapons) or in the case of this U-boat, a bunch of degrading bottles of mercury.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/norway...n-toxic-cargo/
__________________
"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker
"I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325
Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic
Drewbot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2019, 01:47 PM   #10
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,040
There has been a relative silence over the responsibilty if clean up thing. A US ship is sunk by the Japanese off the coast of China.

It sets there 75 odd years leaking fuel and whatever, common scenario.

But it is a war grave and is now discovered to be carrying a toxin on the point of being released by decay.

Who has ownership, whom should pay the costs, should it be disturbed at all? Are the memories of the dead more important than the future damages?

Some are out of reach economically. Waters too deep or in storm area seas, ice shelves most if the year, whatever.
Even when the Kursk was partially raised they left all the nuclear stuff down there and raised the rest. Didn't want to deal with that mess.
8enotto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2019, 09:01 PM   #11
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,127
Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
It sets there 75 odd years leaking fuel and whatever, common scenario.

But it is a war grave and is now discovered to be carrying a toxin on the point of being released by decay.
I say leave it there as a memorial to the stupidity of war.

And if it releases some deadly toxin every now and then - better that people get a nasty reminder, than forget and think it will be different this time...
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2019, 11:09 PM   #12
Ranb
Philosopher
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 9,881
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I say leave it there as a memorial to the stupidity of war.

And if it releases some deadly toxin every now and then - better that people get a nasty reminder, than forget and think it will be different this time...
Some people live there, nearly all of them not born when the ship sank. Your words are rather bold for someone who is not living next to the wreck.

Ranb
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2019, 12:30 AM   #13
Aber
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,459
Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
Some have had some steel salvaged for use in medical instrumentation and specialist radiation monitoring systems. The steel hasn't been subjeted to the same level of contamination from the various nuclear blasts.
I think that relates to the German High Seas Fleet which scuttled itself at Scapa Flow after the end of WW1, so not war graves.
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2019, 12:32 AM   #14
Aber
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,459
Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
But it is a war grave and is now discovered to be carrying a toxin on the point of being released by decay.

Who has ownership, whom should pay the costs, should it be disturbed at all? Are the memories of the dead more important than the future damages?
Want to guess how many poison gas artillery shells were dumped in the ocean after the end of WW1 - pollution from ships is trivial by comparison.
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th September 2019, 09:56 AM   #15
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,040
I am well aware of military policy on disposal of materials. After every war something went into the oceans. Most of which really wasn't going to be beneficial to wherever it ended up.

Personal ideal is that is something that shouldn't have happened. Reality is it is done and now we must accept its our problem, or that of future generations.

Some ' goes away ' with time and decay leaving minimal damages. Others become dangerous as decay advances. These are the big lumps under the rug.
8enotto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2019, 01:24 AM   #16
BillC
Bazooka Joe
 
BillC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,827
HMS Royal Oak was sunk at anchor in Scapa Flow on 14 October 1939, in the first few weeks of the Second World War. 834 of her crew lost their lives, many of these being Boy Sailors under the age of 16. Only a handful of bodies were ever recovered.

Some gun barrels and other valuable items were recovered, but the wreck was largely left in peace. The Navy considered raising the wreck from the shallow waters (the upturned keel is only 5m below the surface), but this caused a public outcry and the plans were shelved.

However, in the 1990s, the wreck's physical condition deteriorated, and oil began to leak into the water of Scapa Flow. Notwithstanding the ship's status as a protected war grave, it was important that the oil be removed. For the most part, this has been done, and a watching brief is now held over the state of the wreck. A mass disturbance of the wreck, whether artificial or natural, could be catastrophic since the ship contains hundreds of tonnes of unexploded ordnance.

There seems little likelihood of the status quo changing in the short term, unless there's a drastic increase in the decay of the remains.
BillC is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2019, 01:29 AM   #17
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,912
There are still parts of France severely contaminated from WW1, over a century ago.
More.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2019, 08:13 AM   #18
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,098
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Want to guess how many poison gas artillery shells were dumped in the ocean after the end of WW1 - pollution from ships is trivial by comparison.
Some of that poison gas - mustard gas at least, can be neutralized in contact with water. I think the by products can be problematic in a closed system because they are acidic, but dilution in the ocean can deal with that.

The mercury mentioned above might be more problematic. That's a lot of mercury, the stuff pretty much never becomes less toxic.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:51 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.