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Old 11th September 2019, 01:44 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Who is John Galt?
Why don't you look him up? He's a fictional Ayn Rand character best known for making a 20ish page speech on extreme libertarianism "objectivism" and individualism.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:18 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Why don't you look him up? He's a fictional Ayn Rand character best known for making a 20ish page speech on extreme libertarianism "objectivism" and individualism.



What makes you think I didn't know who John Galt was?
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:19 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post


What makes you think I didn't know who John Galt was?
WTF, you asked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Who is John Galt?
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:22 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
WTF, you asked.
"Who is John Galt" is a bit of a catch phrase both within the book and among Rand's admirers. Cabbage was quoting the phrase, not asking the question.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:54 PM   #85
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:06 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Who is John Galt?
A is A.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:09 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Why don't you look him up? He's a fictional Ayn Rand character best known for making a 20ish page speech on extreme libertarianism "objectivism" and individualism.

Wow, you win the "reference went right over your head" award for the week.
Even if you have never read the novel (and I can undertint why) you should know from the general knowledge fund, that "Who Is John Galt" is the big catchphrase of the novel, one which has seeped into general culture.

And it's more like a 100 Pagish speech in the novel,
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:21 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You wouldn't call anything anything.
I wouldn't go that far.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:38 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I wouldn't go that far.
I have no opinion on that.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:46 PM   #90
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I didn't see this posted yet, but FYI Uber and Lyft have announced that they will not change the status of their drivers, because they don't meet the criteria outlined in the new law.

Specifically:
Quote:
West argued that since “drivers’ work is outside the usual course of Uber’s business,” which he defined as “serving as a technology platform for several different types of digital marketplaces,” drivers should not be considered employees.


ETA: NYT link: [Confusion and Defiance Follow California’s New Contractor Law]
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Last edited by blutoski; 11th September 2019 at 04:48 PM. Reason: added nyt link
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:48 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
"Who is John Galt" is a bit of a catch phrase both within the book and among Rand's admirers. Cabbage was quoting the phrase, not asking the question.
Oh. Whatever.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:54 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Wow, you win the "reference went right over your head" award for the week.
Even if you have never read the novel (and I can undertint why) you should know from the general knowledge fund, that "Who Is John Galt" is the big catchphrase of the novel, one which has seeped into general culture.

And it's more like a 100 Pagish speech in the novel,
I have the book, actually, a first edition I got from a library book sale for $1 because no one noticed it was valuable. And no I've never read it. I've read Ayn Rand's biography and I have no interest in her books.

Why should I know some trivia you think should be universal knowledge?
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:09 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Why don't you look him up? He's a fictional Ayn Rand character best known for making a 20ish page speech on extreme libertarianism "objectivism" and individualism.
Forty-five. In small print. I counted.
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Old 12th September 2019, 02:35 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
We are an ITIL organization. The problem is that ITIL is only supposed to be a framework from which you make rational decisions as to what applies to your organize and how best to implement to fit your needs. IBM treats it like a checklist, and because that same list is fed to non-technical auditors they happily report “everything is great”.
Hmm I had to deal with IBM corporate audit once. Accountants reviewing IT Security with a book they didn't understand, wouldn't show to us but insisted we had to follow every detail in it. I was a pentester so had my own copy. It was a good manual full of principles "do something like...", "one way to achieve this target is...". So we phoned the author, had a nice chat and got an email back from him to pass to the auditors saying he was updating the manual to incorporate our practices.
Quote:

When? IBM began shedding technical capability as far back as 2006 and if it were my decision there isn’t much I would trust them with at this point. I know of several places they are outright blacklisted because the only thing they are good at anymore is explaining why all the problems they create are someone else’s fault.
1984-1999. I was then an IBM customer from 1999 to around 2005 via HSBC. I had to escalate a problem because the supposed expert would continually mistake my problem for other peoples. I kept asking her to assign it to a specific 3rd level queue FAO an ex-colleague and she refused until our salesman went way over her head. Solved next day.
I was on an internal IBM course in 1990(?) with a couple of AS/400 (iSeries now) engineers who told me about how they had a long-running problem and continually told by support they were the only ones who had it. In desperation at a AS400 conference one stood up and asked the group if they could help with this problem only they had. There was a roar of "bastards" from around the room. Many other customers had this problem.
Even in my time there was an endemic problem that IBM staff, managers, labs, plants and divisions spent more time competing with each other than with the real competition.
I learned ITIL at HSBC and they are largely very good at it with one big problem. The people running the Incident and Problem processes don't have much IT knowledge and for example are unable to explain why they have problem categories of application, software, and program and the differences between them. They sent me on a 2 week residential course for the ITIL Service Manager qualification which was frankly way overkill for my job but they took ITIL that seriously. I failed the exam by 1 mark as I have a hand injury that makes it painful to write for too long. My team used to close complex problems with a root cause of "console harness".
Rambled on a bit. Sorry.
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Old 12th September 2019, 02:39 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Wow, you win the "reference went right over your head" award for the week.
Even if you have never read the novel (and I can undertint why) you should know from the general knowledge fund, that "Who Is John Galt" is the big catchphrase of the novel, one which has seeped into general culture.

And it's more like a 100 Pagish speech in the novel,
I've read the book with lots of high-speed skimming but I was not aware that phrase had seeped into general culture.
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Old 12th September 2019, 02:40 AM   #96
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Disgusting.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:22 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Wow, you win the "reference went right over your head" award for the week.
Even if you have never read the novel (and I can undertint why) you should know from the general knowledge fund, that "Who Is John Galt" is the big catchphrase of the novel, one which has seeped into general culture.

And it's more like a 100 Pagish speech in the novel,
I must be from a different general knowledge fund.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:32 AM   #98
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The Australian government solved this contractor/employee problem years ago.

They didn't mind employees being classified as contractors and losing worker rights. However, the prospect of these "contractors" then being eligible for business tax breaks had the government seeing red.

So they came up with a law which says that if 80% or more of your annual income came from one source then no matter who the source was, no matter what your duties were and no matter what entity you imposed between yourself and the source (trust, company etc) you were classified as an "employee" for tax purposes. That robbed employees of the incentive to become contractors.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:33 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Forty-five. In small print. I counted.
But it felt like much, much more.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:51 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Wow, you win the "reference went right over your head" award for the week.
Even if you have never read the novel (and I can undertint why) you should know from the general knowledge fund, that "Who Is John Galt" is the big catchphrase of the novel, one which has seeped into general culture.

And it's more like a 100 Pagish speech in the novel,
I live in general culture and I've never heard of John Galt or that catch phrase, even though I have heard of Ayn Rand. The reference went over my head too.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:12 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Alternatively, if we had legit universal healthcare not tied to employment then we wouldn't need to worry so much about the classification difference. Then employers could hire more readily and employees could change jobs more securely. Losing a job wouldn't be such a direct threat to ones actual life.
It is strange that universal health care has so many strictly free-market -Capitalism arguments in favor of it, yet is derided by the American party that claims to worship at the free-market’s feet.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:34 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The Australian government solved this contractor/employee problem years ago.

They didn't mind employees being classified as contractors and losing worker rights. However, the prospect of these "contractors" then being eligible for business tax breaks had the government seeing red.

So they came up with a law which says that if 80% or more of your annual income came from one source then no matter who the source was, no matter what your duties were and no matter what entity you imposed between yourself and the source (trust, company etc) you were classified as an "employee" for tax purposes. That robbed employees of the incentive to become contractors.
That makes great sense. But what is the time frame? I took on some jobs that were as long as a 3 month stint, not long enough to be 80% but other contracts are longer.

And then I can see companies like Microsoft limiting contractor time frames to just under whatever the law defined.


You bring up a good point, benefits in this case are a 2 way street.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:37 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I live in general culture and I've never heard of John Galt or that catch phrase, even though I have heard of Ayn Rand. The reference went over my head too.
I appreciate everyone's support.

Thanks.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:38 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
It is strange that universal health care has so many strictly free-market -Capitalism arguments in favor of it, yet is derided by the American party that claims to worship at the free-market’s feet.
It's one of those problems when you want to change something so entrenched in a society.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:39 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I wouldn't go that far.
Bob would refuse to call nothing nothing.

By which I mean that he would acknowledge nothing but have a non-opinion about it while admonishing another poster for non-recognition of the other nothing’s which mean just as much as the unacknowleged nothing in non-question.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:59 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That makes great sense. But what is the time frame? I took on some jobs that were as long as a 3 month stint, not long enough to be 80% but other contracts are longer.

And then I can see companies like Microsoft limiting contractor time frames to just under whatever the law defined.


You bring up a good point, benefits in this case are a 2 way street.
The time frame is during a financial year (which in Australia runs from 1 July to 30 June the following year). Each time a new financial year starts, the counting starts again. It happened to me one year when the company I was a director for had only one client. I had to reduce the company net profit to zero and put it all on my personal tax return as "attributed income".

I'm not sure that this law would help workers in the land of "at will" employment. The employer would just as likely say, "I don't care how the tax man treats you, either be a contractor or go elsewhere".
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:09 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I have the book, actually, a first edition I got from a library book sale for $1 because no one noticed it was valuable. And no I've never read it. I've read Ayn Rand's biography and I have no interest in her books.

Why should I know some trivia you think should be universal knowledge?
In general you should have encountered Rand in high school, where her books were commonly assigned reading, at least back in the horse and buggy days when I was getting my secondary education. That said, I would suspect far more people have read Anthem than the Fountainhead and more have read the Fountainhead than Atlas Shrugged, and almost nobody has read her non-fiction books.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:30 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
In general you should have encountered Rand in high school, where her books were commonly assigned reading, at least back in the horse and buggy days when I was getting my secondary education. That said, I would suspect far more people have read Anthem than the Fountainhead and more have read the Fountainhead than Atlas Shrugged, and almost nobody has read her non-fiction books.
Oh for pity's sake. Assigned reading in high school?

Where did you grow up? I don't know of any school where Rand was required reading. I'd get the Cliff Notes if someone had made me read Atlas Shrugged.

IMO, I learned a lot more about Rand and her Objectivism reading her biography.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:43 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh for pity's sake. Assigned reading in high school?

Where did you grow up? I don't know of any school where Rand was required reading. I'd get the Cliff Notes if someone had made me read Atlas Shrugged.

IMO, I learned a lot more about Rand and her Objectivism reading her biography.

I'd never heard of Rand at all until I "met" RandFan here. Even then I thought his name was in reference to James Randi until maybe 5 years ago. I also learned that RandFan doesn't really look like John Candy either. Silly me.

Never heard of John Galt or the thing we are all supposed to know about him or whatever. But then I skipped a lot of high school.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:15 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I'd never heard of Rand at all until I "met" RandFan here. Even then I thought his name was in reference to James Randi until maybe 5 years ago. I also learned that RandFan doesn't really look like John Candy either. Silly me.

Never heard of John Galt or the thing we are all supposed to know about him or whatever. But then I skipped a lot of high school.
Her relatives supported her when she immigrated from Russia as a teen, helped her through college, then when she moved to Hollywood and got rich she didn't pay them back one dime.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:31 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Her relatives supported her when she immigrated from Russia as a teen, helped her through college, then when she moved to Hollywood and got rich she didn't pay them back one dime.
No wonder she's a hero of the right.
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:20 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh for pity's sake. Assigned reading in high school? .
What? You mean your English teachers in public school were NOT anarcho-capitalists hellbent on destroying the state?

Where did YOU go to school? Vladimir Lenin High?
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Old 13th September 2019, 03:51 AM   #113
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When I was in high school in the 90s Rand wasn't required reading but her cult famously offered scholarships for essays on her work. This was pursued seriously by two kinds of person: the nerds who believed they were special and better than everyone else, and the nerds who thought a thousand bucks would actually make a dent in their tuition. Both stances were risible but the people holding them lacked a sense of humor about it.
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Old 13th September 2019, 03:52 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Her relatives supported her when she immigrated from Russia as a teen, helped her through college, then when she moved to Hollywood and got rich she didn't pay them back one dime.
She also raged against Social Security but took it herself.
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Old 13th September 2019, 05:08 AM   #115
newyorkguy
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I didn't see this posted yet, but FYI Uber and Lyft have announced that they will not change the status of their drivers, because they don't meet the criteria outlined in the new law.

Specifically:
Quote:
West argued that since “drivers’ work is outside the usual course of Uber’s business,” which he defined as “serving as a technology platform for several different types of digital marketplaces,” drivers should not be considered employees.
...
Finally, an on-topic post to respond to. (I didn't see that coming.)

Although I don't agree with the stated reason -- to claim that Uber is not in the car-for-hire business seems ridiculous -- I do agree with their reluctance to consider drivers paid employees. Like many taxi businesses today, the 'drivers' are owner-operators. They have to have their own car and they're responsible for insurance, maintenance and repairs. Quite a bit different than the typical employee situation.

Back in the 1980s I was a part-owner of a small radio-dispatched private taxi fleet. We hired drivers using what was then the standard agreement. Fares were split 50/50 with the driver and the drivers paid the gas. The company operated the phone service, with phone operators and dispatchers. The company was responsible for providing, maintaining and repairing the cars. There were no benefits, no healthcare plan, no paid time off.

As the cost of a new car rose, so did insurance premiums as well as maintenance and repairs. Turning a profit became very difficult. Repairs, the cost of replacement parts, did us in. At the time, many of the fleets, the ones that remained in business, were turning to owner-operators as a way to survive, to get out from under the repair costs. Instead, we sold out. If Uber or Lyft are forced to transition owner-drivers to employees -- presumably Uber and Lyft would then have to furnish and maintain the vehicles -- I doubt they will stay in business for very long. The numbers almost never work.

Last edited by newyorkguy; 13th September 2019 at 05:25 AM.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:34 AM   #116
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The numbers don't work now - uber and lyft are both hemorraging money, even with pushing all costs onto the drivers. If they can't exploit their drivers they'll die overnight, hence "we don't have drivers, what's a driver, I've never seen one, we just make this innocent app."
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:38 AM   #117
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//Devil's advocate, devil's advocate.//

Uber's argument is gonna be that the business arraignment is between the driver and the person who needs the ride, they just facilitate that business arraignment.

I have a widget I'm looking to sell. You are looking for a widget to buy. eBay (or Craiglist or whatever) facilitates that business arraignment.

Does that mean I'm an employee of eBay because I used their platform to sell you my widget?

Uber can argue they are just an eBay analog where the only product being sold is "I need a ride."

What's the difference from a point that can be argued legally?
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:42 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
//Devil's advocate, devil's advocate.//

Uber's argument is gonna be that the business arraignment is between the driver and the person who needs the ride, they just facilitate that business arraignment.

I have a widget I'm looking to sell. You are looking for a widget to buy. eBay (or Craiglist or whatever) facilitates that business arraignment.

Does that mean I'm an employee of eBay because I used their platform to sell you my widget?

Uber can argue they are just an eBay analog where the only product being sold is "I need a ride."

What's the difference from a point that can be argued legally?
Pimps have tried that defense for centuries. I don't believe it's ever worked.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:42 AM   #119
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The thing is, Uber/Lyft should be a license to print money.

"You have a car and some free time. He needs a ride. We have an app that lets you find each other and handles the financial transaction. All we ask is a small piece of your action, whenever you use our app to find someone who needs a ride."

Once the principal development is done, Uber's end of the business could probably be handled by a dozen software developers to maintain and improve the code, and a dozen support and admin staff.

"Use our app to hire your car, and share your proceeds with us" shouldn't be a question of contractors, or employees, or anything like that. And yet here we are.
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:47 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Pimps have tried that defense for centuries. I don't believe it's ever worked.
Selling sex is (somehow but that's a whole other topic) illegal. Giving someone a lift in your vehicle for money is not.

What this is all gonna build to is some sort of legal precedent set about all monetary transactions outside of organized businesses. Does the simple act of providing the means of a transaction to third parties make them your employee, and if so that's a big can of worms.

Without, somehow, making "Hey Bill my car's in the shop, can you give me a lift to work tomorrow I'll pay you" illegal you can't make... the same thing just with an app in the middle to connect people illegal, at least not easily.
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