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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 10th September 2019, 07:31 AM   #1
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Elizabeth Warren Ancestry Thread Part 2

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I've already explained why it's relevant to voters. These issues tie together in people's minds, even if there isn't a formal logical connection.
Your claim was about Warren's position on the matter. I'm still waiting for you to support that.

Mod InfoThis is a continuation from here
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Old 10th September 2019, 07:42 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
And? Where's the repeated pattern of essays and applications in which she describes the injustices she faced growing up as an American Indian and how her unique heritage can be an asset to such and such an opportunity? Whether literally checking a box or completing a blank, who cares?

Thirty years ago a young woman took some liberties in her paperwork that in hindsight are unseemly –– maybe even sleazy. She evidently derived no benefit from this but she most likely did so at least in part thinking that it might open some doors for her. She has apologized and is working to make amends with the only people who should have taken offense to this: the Cherokee. (Maybe also the Delaware.)

She messed up –– no question. The part that bugs me is folks making the mountain out of this molehill, and providing her no quarter to make amends.

Can we just pause for a second and, on the Grifter Scale, plot this transgression of Warren's relative to, I don't know, the 30-year old closet skeletons that we might be able to find for an average US Senator or –– dare I say –– what Trump might have been up to in the last 30 HOURS?
Look, I accept her explanations. It's the made-up ones I don't accept. She didn't just tick off a box on a form that implied that you were to list your various ancestry claims. She wrote out "American Indian" in a field for "Race:"

"Hey, we were all into doing that kind of thing back there and I was kinda proud of the Native American strain in my lineage!" I'd be fine with that. Her comment at one point that she thought she'd have better opportunities to get to hang with some N.A. attorneys also works for me.

You were going to a lot of trouble to parse the whole thing in terms of analogies to your own mixed heritage. I'm there... I'm both Jewish and Sicilian - second generation of both. But it has no bearing on this.

I'm a Warren supporter if it comes down to the leading three (Biden, Warren, Sanders) and do not support the fake narrative that she was trying to exploit affirmative action. As crimes go, her little transgression is minor. I don't think we need to embroider the living bejeebus out of it, though.
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Old 10th September 2019, 12:01 PM   #3
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I think Warren's past claims are most problematic because of how race has been made the central issue of what is a vast political divide in this country.

In a vacuum, writing words on a piece of paper hurts no one.

But you can't be the party of "white people are inherently evil and only prosper at the expense of minorities" and then nominate a white lady who (so the argument goes) apparently, explicitly and cynically exploited a system of mandated diversity for her own personal gain. It's appears to be hypocrisy.

Also, this is why distilling every political argument down to "racism" or "sexism" is so dangerous. If the litmus test is always "did this person ever do or say anything that could be construed as racist at any point in history" then most of the people are going to fail that test.

See; Franken, Al.

In other words, if you live by the sword, you should expect to die by it.

PS. Personally, from a policy standpoint, Im almost in lockstep with Warren and I think she would make a fantastic president. But I think she is maybe the worst opponent for Trump because of this issue and the time in which we're living.
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Old 10th September 2019, 12:12 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat
I'm not sure why you have such confidence. I don't think it's at all warranted.
http://volokh.com/2012/05/04/elizabe...school-hiring/
Despite the snide tone, he doesn't quote anyone who contradicts this sentence from her Wiki page:

Quote:
A 2018 Boston Globe investigation found "clear evidence, in documents and interviews, that her claim to Native American ethnicity was never considered by the Harvard Law faculty, which voted resoundingly to hire her, or by those who hired her to four prior positions at other law schools".[124]
He is aghast, but finds no actual evidence to support his dismay. Poor fellow.
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Old 10th September 2019, 12:54 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Despite the snide tone, he doesn't quote anyone who contradicts this sentence from her Wiki page:



He is aghast, but finds no actual evidence to support his dismay. Poor fellow.

That's a dead link in Zig's quote, probably because you copy-pasted Zigs post rather then quoting it, so you picked up the abbreviated text of the link and not the whole hyperlink.

Was it this one?

http://volokh.com/2012/05/04/elizabe...school-hiring/
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Old 10th September 2019, 01:14 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That's a dead link in Zig's quote, probably because you copy-pasted Zigs post rather then quoting it, so you picked up the abbreviated text of the link and not the whole hyperlink.

Was it this one?

http://volokh.com/2012/05/04/elizabe...school-hiring/
Thank you!

I did as you say since the old thread was closed and I couldn't quote it into this thread. I should have known better.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:00 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
a white lady who (so the argument goes) apparently, explicitly and cynically exploited a system of mandated diversity for her own personal gain.
Did she?
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:07 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
Did she?
I don't have a firm opinion. I think her actions were certainly questionable (I guess that's what we're doing here) and are now a definite liability.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:37 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
PS. Personally, from a policy standpoint, Im almost in lockstep with Warren and I think she would make a fantastic president. But I think she is maybe the worst opponent for Trump because of this issue and the time in which we're living.
See, I've yet to encounter even one single person who says they won't vote for Warren in the general because of this issue.

Not one.

Just a lot of people predicting that maybe other people won't.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:01 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
See, I've yet to encounter even one single person who says they won't vote for Warren in the general because of this issue.

Not one.

Just a lot of people predicting that maybe other people won't.
The question is not who to support in the general, but who to support in the primaries. Who will make the best candidate? I don't think the answer is entirely clear yet.
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Old 12th September 2019, 01:53 AM   #11
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The Ancestry Issue is very much like the Email Server - not anything of substance, but if illuminated the right way, it looks bad.

Most importantly, it is completely irrelevant as a means to judge the qualification for the job of President.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:51 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The Ancestry Issue is very much like the Email Server - not anything of substance, but if illuminated the right way, it looks bad.

Most importantly, it is completely irrelevant as a means to judge the qualification for the job of President.
The misrepresentations happened so long ago that you're probably right. Still, it's an indicator of a weak personality, and her present day handling of the topic hasn't helped.

Whoever faces Trump needs to be able to look into the eye of the beast without blinking. Think Frodo and Sauron.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:51 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The Ancestry Issue is very much like the Email Server - not anything of substance, but if illuminated the right way, it looks bad.

Most importantly, it is completely irrelevant as a means to judge the qualification for the job of President.
I disagree. I find her lack of skepticism about claims made by family members very relevant. I value skepticism as a quality of job performance.

I think it is even worse that she would readily believe something that produces no benefit.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:57 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Whoever faces Trump needs to be able to look into the eye of the beast without blinking. Think Frodo and Sauron.
I don't think Sauron could look into Trump's eyes and not blink.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:15 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't think Sauron could look into Trump's eyes and not blink.

Trump is a powerful negotiator. He knows how to leverage bargaining assets, create bargaining assets out of nothing, and ask for the order.

If Warren and Trump get on a debate stage, he has her all set up to fall into the Nagging-Mother-In-Law trap. Uggh I'm already picturing it.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:23 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Trump is a powerful negotiator.


You must be joking. He SUCKS as a negociator. What he does is bully people, often backed by nothing but the threat of lawsuits.
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:24 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Trump is a powerful negotiator. He knows how to leverage bargaining assets, create bargaining assets out of nothing, and ask for the order.
States facts not in evidence. Did you learn that at Trump University?
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:47 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The Ancestry Issue is very much like the Email Server - not anything of substance, but if illuminated the right way, it looks bad.

Most importantly, it is completely irrelevant as a means to judge the qualification for the job of President.
"Illegal e-mail servers" aren't a boogeyman among the Liberals the way "Cultural appropriation" is.

Again this whole thing is a nothing burger from every possible angle... if we didn't live in a world where the same people keep wanting to talk about white people wearing dreadlocks or teaching belly dancing classes.

The reason I'm such an outlier in most political discussions is because I don't care about gotcha/whataboutism/"how do you like it when the shoe is on the other foot" arguments that make up... well all within a rounding error of our political discourse these days but that's not the same thing as burying my head in the sand and pretending that's not what this is and talk around it.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:09 AM   #19
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Regardless, she still is yelling at me like my Mother In Law.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:10 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Regardless, she still is yelling at me like my Mother In Law.
Well all the more reason to vote for your drunken racist molesting uncle I guess.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:12 AM   #21
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Did Warren do a stupid thing? Yes. Was it the stupidest thing ever? No. Was it so stupid that by itself it renders her incapable of being a good president? No. Is it worth talking about still? No.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:15 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well all the more reason to vote for your drunken racist molesting uncle I guess.
This is the part I have trouble getting over. No matter how many problems or annoyances you can come up with for a possible Democratic candidate, at the end of the day, your alternative is always Donald Trump, your drunken racist molesting uncle who leaves before paying his share of the bill.

But, I mean, Trump (presumably) has a penis, so that makes it okay, I guess.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:34 AM   #23
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I wish more people could grasp that "I'm gonna vote for Candidate X" and "I'm a total fanboy for Candidate X and think they can do no wrong" aren't the same thing.

Barring some sort of factor that I'm literally unable to even imagine a reasonable hypothetical for happening between now and then, I'm gonna vote for whatever Democratic Candidate is nominated to run against Trump.

That does not mean I'll have zero issues with them or throw my support behind everything they do and say.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:40 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I wish more people could grasp that "I'm gonna vote for Candidate X" and "I'm a total fanboy for Candidate X and think they can do no wrong" aren't the same thing.

Barring some sort of factor that I'm literally unable to even imagine a reasonable hypothetical for happening between now and then, I'm gonna vote for whatever Democratic Candidate is nominated to run against Trump.

That does not mean I'll have zero issues with them or throw my support behind everything they do and say.
Indeed. If Biden gets the nomination even I will reluctantly vote for him. I'll even wear a "Biden 20/20" eyepatch to support him. Possibly with fake bloodstains.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:48 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well all the more reason to vote for your drunken racist molesting uncle I guess.
Cannot tell if you're casting shade on the Republican or the Democratic frontrunner, but I'm guessing the latter since POTUS (allegedly) doesn't drink.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think it is even worse that she would readily believe something that produces no benefit.
The benefit to Warren was explained quite succinctly upthread.
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Old 12th September 2019, 06:49 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Trump (presumably) has a penis
First-hand accounts alledge that he has a mushroom, instead.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:37 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Still, it's an indicator of a weak personality, and her present day handling of the topic hasn't helped.

Whoever faces Trump needs to be able to look into the eye of the beast without blinking. Think Frodo and Sauron.
I'm going to have to disagree on both these points. Warren did the same thing that millions of Americans do - believing a family story. And when you expand that beyond claims of Native ancestry, probably almost everyone does something similar. I certainly know I believe some family traditions that can't be verified (because certain kinds of anecdotes rarely can be). I don't think there's anything in believing family histories that inherently indicates a weak personality. I guess you could fault her for being so conspicuously credible of the claims, but, again, that kind of behavior in general is so common, I'm not going to fault her for it; and I'm a person with recent, strong ties to a culture that results in frequent "hey, I'm that, too - well, like, a quarter or an eighth or something"-type comments from people that get annoying. But I don't hold it against anyone because I learned a long time ago that's just what America is like - people here like holding onto distant claims of identity. If I had to consider every family story or claim of ethnicity someone has told me a sign of personal weakness, I don't know if I could respect anybody

And I actually see her response as fairly strong so far. She was called out for being clueless and handling criticism poorly, apologized, and is publicly trying to make amends and do a better job. That shows a lot of maturity that's, IMO, a good counter to Trump's refusal to admit to even small mistakes. Doing things like using a marker to "correct" a map and make it seem like you were right all along is a sign of a weak personality to me, owning up to your mistakes isn't. Could she have done a better job? Maybe, it's hard to say what exactly the right response to any smear campaign is. Will the GOP try to make it into a big deal? Yes, and there is some ammo there (although, as I said in the previous thread, it might be dangerous territory because so many Americans, especially southerners, claim NA ancestry, too), just like with the emails thing, but at least the people with the biggest stake in Warren's claims have accepted her apology and generally tend to approve of her now.

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Old 12th September 2019, 09:56 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Did Warren do a stupid thing? Yes. Was it the stupidest thing ever? No. Was it so stupid that by itself it renders her incapable of being a good president? No. Is it worth talking about still? No.
I can’t tell, are you talking about her once being a Republican?
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:59 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
I can’t tell, are you talking about her once being a Republican?
That she switched parties, and the reason behind it, is one of her best selling points.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:03 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
That she switched parties, and the reason behind it, is one of her best selling points.
That she claimed to be a Native American and a Republican at the same time should have led her to deeper thoughts about her won identity.

Also, can we treat this like alcoholism: Yeah, she did that stuff back when she was in the GOP, but she's been clean for decades now.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:19 AM   #31
varwoche
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
I'm going to have to disagree on both these points. Warren did the same thing that millions of Americans do - believing a family story.
I don't fault her for that aspect. The problem is, even per the family story, she was fractional. Self-identifying based on a small fraction is dishonest.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:29 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I don't fault her for that aspect. The problem is, even per the family story, she was fractional. Self-identifying based on a small fraction is dishonest.
I think it would be dishonest only to the extent that she believed it would be literally read that way by some person who had an interest and that her intent was to fool that party.

If you go to the website of a company that sells alcohol, you'll find that they ask you to enter your age to be allowed admittance. And for some godforsaken reason, they tend to use drop down menus instead of a typed entry. So you have to go through a slightly awkward process to find your birth year.

I assure you, I am over 21. In fact, I'm turning 40 this coming year.

And yet, on at least two occaisions on entering one of these websites, I have merely scrolled down to the first year that would be over 21 and submitted that age.

Have I presented something which is not true? Absolutely. Have I been dishonest? No. Because I didn't intend to mislead or cheat anyone. That's both the dictionary definition and the meaning of the word you'd need to use to have it be worthy of moral reproachment.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:53 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I don't fault her for that aspect. The problem is, even per the family story, she was fractional. Self-identifying based on a small fraction is dishonest.
Foolish, perhaps. But dishonest?
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:53 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I think it would be dishonest only to the extent that she believed it would be literally read that way by some person who had an interest and that her intent was to fool that party.

If you go to the website of a company that sells alcohol, you'll find that they ask you to enter your age to be allowed admittance. And for some godforsaken reason, they tend to use drop down menus instead of a typed entry. So you have to go through a slightly awkward process to find your birth year.

I assure you, I am over 21. In fact, I'm turning 40 this coming year.

And yet, on at least two occaisions on entering one of these websites, I have merely scrolled down to the first year that would be over 21 and submitted that age.

Have I presented something which is not true? Absolutely. Have I been dishonest? No. Because I didn't intend to mislead or cheat anyone. That's both the dictionary definition and the meaning of the word you'd need to use to have it be worthy of moral reproachment.
You encounter dropdowns like that because of a universal programming rule: any field you allow the user to free text input will let a constant stream of garbage data into your database.
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:01 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You encounter dropdowns like that because of a universal programming rule: any field you allow the user to free text input will let a constant stream of garbage data into your database.
Unless you do good error checking and have murder-drones pre-programmed to seek out and remove problematic users.
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:19 AM   #36
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Since there's no actual verification of the age and it's all on the honor system is should just be a "Are you Over 21, Yes or No" box. What's the point of making any system to input actual age in that kind of context?
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:24 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I don't fault her for that aspect. The problem is, even per the family story, she was fractional. Self-identifying based on a small fraction is dishonest.


To the extent that we can categorize "race" (I think there should be more boxes to check here in the U.S.).
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:45 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Since there's no actual verification of the age and it's all on the honor system is should just be a "Are you Over 21, Yes or No" box. What's the point of making any system to input actual age in that kind of context?
Because many children are too ignorant to do the subtraction necessary to figure out what years are more than 20 years ago.
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:46 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Since there's no actual verification of the age and it's all on the honor system is should just be a "Are you Over 21, Yes or No" box. What's the point of making any system to input actual age in that kind of context?

To catch the young kids that can't math it out.
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Old 12th September 2019, 01:50 PM   #40
varwoche
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I think it would be dishonest only to the extent that she believed it would be literally read that way by some person who had an interest and that her intent was to fool that party.
I can't read her mind, retrospectively or otherwise, when she wrote her race down as "American Indian". All I know is she wasn't truthful, knowingly.

Quote:
... And yet, on at least two occaisions on entering one of these websites, I have merely scrolled down to the first year that would be over 21 and submitted that age.

Have I presented something which is not true? Absolutely. Have I been dishonest? No. Because I didn't intend to mislead or cheat anyone. That's both the dictionary definition and the meaning of the word you'd need to use to have it be worthy of moral reproachment.
I find this comparison unconvincing for two reasons: (1) For all practical purposes, you didn't misrepresent yourself. You were legally qualified to make the purchase. Whereas Warren misrepresented herself. (2) That's a far more casual scenario.

By the way, your concept of the dictionary definition of "dishonest" is wrong, in the sense of too many qualifiers.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Foolish, perhaps. But dishonest?
Clearly.
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Last edited by varwoche; 12th September 2019 at 01:53 PM.
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