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Old 8th August 2012, 03:00 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
That's not a prediction. That's just stupid.
Anders claims nuclear weapons are a hoax. But that, as he says, belongs in a different forum.
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Old 8th August 2012, 03:02 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I will not go into conspiracy theory stuff, but just ask yourself how successful the fusion reactors have been.
Exactly as successful as predicted by current theories. No current reactor was designed to reach or exceed the break even point. Every major fusion experiment worked to its specifications, which, again, were developed on the basis of our current theories regarding fusion, plasma behaviour and so on.

Come on, Anders, it is time to end this gracefully.
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Old 8th August 2012, 03:14 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Say hello to my double black hole energy generator: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYP6MYU-Igk
Eek! That's actually a pretty good model. Here is why: Let's say we start with a sphere of hydrogen in space. When the mass reaches a large enough value, a start of a collapse happens at some point on the surface. This causes a reduction of the volume around that position on the surface. That in turn leads to the gravitational pull on the exact opposite side of the sphere increasing, causing the collapse to be polar with opposite sides. The center of the sphere has zero gravity and this leads to two 'lumps' forming and turning the sphere into a peanut-shaped double-bubble formation. As the collapse continues it accelerates within these two bubble formations, leading to two separate and opposite and equally sized black holes to form. And, no, there is no fusion happening.

That's the energy generator of stars. In a quasar, the double black holes have collapsed into a single black hole, leading to the energy being emitted in particle beams instead of the spherical blaze the spinning double black holes generate.
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Old 8th August 2012, 03:14 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
LOL @ "at the moment".

I think the seagull approach pretty much sums up all your threads whatever their topic: skim over making lots of noise, crap over everything and leave.
Nominated for the lack of "pith" in your pith.
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Old 8th August 2012, 03:25 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
That would depend on the theory of fusion being correct. My prediction is that the theory of fusion is false.

"prediction"?!?!?!? Post-diction, fail. OK, now you've got an impossible row to hoe. Thank you for that.

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ETA:

Oh, and In case you're wondering why I linked a movie some of the bomb tests you see here (at the end of the movie) are of hydrogen bomb tests.


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Old 8th August 2012, 03:32 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
"prediction"?!?!?!? Post-diction, fail. OK, now you've got an impossible row to hoe. Thank you for that.

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Thank you for posting a scene from one of the biggest propaganda hit-pieces in history. I have two words for this: Stanley Kubrick.

Ok, ok, I can't resist: The Dr. Strangelove movie was devised to give the clueless masses the impression that atom bombs are real. Enough conspiracy theories from me for now. Ha ha.
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Old 8th August 2012, 03:49 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Thank you for posting a scene from one of the biggest propaganda hit-pieces in history. I have two words for this: Stanley Kubrick.

Ok, ok, I can't resist: The Dr. Strangelove movie was devised to give the clueless masses the impression that atom bombs are real. Enough conspiracy theories from me for now. Ha ha.
Dang nab it, you gots me there, unfortunately reality is the best (and worst) propaganda. Can't beat them special effects in that movie.
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Old 8th August 2012, 04:04 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
If I were satisfied with the standard models, then I would not come up with something as radical as this hypothesis. I'm not satisfied with the current standard models.
Maybe you'd be more satisfied with current standard models if you took the time to learn them.

But are you dissatisfied with all current standard models, or just specific kinds?

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
If Einstein's relativity would be consistent with the other theories in physics it would be less of a problem. The problem is that it isn't. Take the horrendous superstring/M-theories for example. Another case of 'epicycle theories'.

Again you cry "epicycles theories". Seems a strange way to look at it to me.

The problem with epicycles was that they were simply added to the existing geocentric model of the solar system to correct for inaccuracies, making the system increasingly cumbersome and complicated.

But with superstring and M-theory the idea is to replace the existing models in order to simplify all of physics into a handful of equations, making physics more elegant and less complicated.

Pretty much the exact opposite of the epicycle kludge.

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Yes, I suggest that even heavier elements can be extracted from the vacuum.
Based on what? Do you have a self-consistent model of physics from which you derive this conclusion, or are you simply making stuff up because you want it to work that way?

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
At the moment the thing I will do is to make a bold prediction that it will turn out that stars with the same mass will have essentially identical spectra and be of equal size.
What is your basis for this prediction? Can you show us the theory and the math behind it? Or are you just guessing based on your own personal biases?

Because if it's just based on your personal opinion, it's pretty much worthless as a scientific prediction.

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Say hello to my double black hole energy generator: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYP6MYU-Igk
So wait... you're claiming the sun contains two rapidly-spinning black holes in orbit with each-other through a dense fog of particles?

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
My hypothesis is that when enough hydrogen has lumped together and accumulated enough mass it will always collapse into a black hole. (Maybe some helium can be needed but I will start with only hydrogen.)
Don't bother, current physics predicts that if you get enough mass of anything together it will collapse into a black hole.

ETA: Strange though that you're willing to believe that with enough pressure/gravity large numbers of atoms can be compressed so that they merge together into a single black hole, while at the same time you refuse to believe that two atoms can't be compressed together to form a single larger atom.
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Old 8th August 2012, 04:46 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
So wait... you're claiming the sun contains two rapidly-spinning black holes in orbit with each-other through a dense fog of particles?
Yes! Check out this again: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=363

It's a serious model. The spin of the black holes isn't explained in that post, but I have saved that for later.
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Old 8th August 2012, 05:11 AM   #370
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It's no model at all. You provide neither data nor a theoretical framework.

<Ahnold-mode>Yur ekwashions. Gif zem to me.</Ahnold-mode>
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Old 8th August 2012, 05:19 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
If I were satisfied with the standard models, then I would not come up with something as radical as this hypothesis. I'm not satisfied with the current standard models.
Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I'm not an expert on physics.
No comment necessary
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Old 8th August 2012, 05:52 AM   #372
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Yeah, nice summary dlorde!
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Old 8th August 2012, 06:05 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by GeneMachine View Post
It's no model at all. You provide neither data nor a theoretical framework.

<Ahnold-mode>Yur ekwashions. Gif zem to me.</Ahnold-mode>
Yes, the equations are necessary. They should be fairly simple to extract for experts.

The peanut shape and formation into two black holes was easy to follow without equations I take it. The next step is, how to get the spin and rotation?

If we assume that the two black holes are stationary in relation to each other regarding distance and rotational movements, and if it's also assumed that both black holes have magnetic fields pointing in the same direction. Then they will start to rotate in relation to each other so that the opposite magnetic poles will match. If there was no momentum, then they would rotate 90 degrees (180 degrees relative to each other) and then stop, but since there is a huge momentum involved they will continue to rotate and if they rotate past another 90 degrees each they will begin another round, this time a bit faster, and in this way they start to rotate faster and faster until they reach some kind of maximum angular velocity.

Then how to explain the rotation around the other axis? Think of a single propeller airplane taking off. The plane will move to one side unless compensated for by steering it in a straight direction. This means that the spinning black holes will start turning around each other on the other axis perpendicular to their spin. The result is like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYP6MYU-Igk
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Old 8th August 2012, 06:10 AM   #374
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Edited by kmortis:  Removed personal comments

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Old 8th August 2012, 06:12 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
With the risk of making a complete fool of myself, I'm wondering if the sun could be a black hole? I did some searches on the web but all I could find was questions about if the sun will become a black hole.

The so-called Hawking radiation predicts that black holes radiate energy. If the sun is a black hole, how much energy would it generate, given that the mass of the sun is much larger than predicted by the standard models?

The mass of the sun as a black hole can be calculated from its diameter.
This struck a memory of reading somewhere that Sol's mass would have to be crushed down to the same size as the Earth (or smaller, can't recall) to become a black hole and that the Earth's mass would have to be crushed into a thimble to do same.
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Old 8th August 2012, 06:13 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I will not go into conspiracy theory stuff, but just ask yourself how successful the fusion reactors have been.
The thing about fusion is that it works great when you have enough mass to produce temperatures and pressures that would incinerate the Earth. This presents a problem when we try to create those conditions in order to power our sports cars.
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Old 8th August 2012, 06:14 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Yes! Check out this again: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=363

It's a serious model. The spin of the black holes isn't explained in that post, but I have saved that for later.
Yes, but that post makes no sense...

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Let's say we start with a sphere of hydrogen in space. When the mass reaches a large enough value, a start of a collapse happens at some point on the surface.
You're saying that matter collapses into a black-hole starting from the outside? But the outside has the least gravity, least density and least pressure. Why would it happen that way?

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
This causes a reduction of the volume around that position on the surface. That in turn leads to the gravitational pull on the exact opposite side of the sphere increasing, causing the collapse to be polar with opposite sides.
What?

The "reduction in volume" would cause an increase in gravity everywhere in the sphere of hydrogen, but the increase would be weakest at the exact opposite side, and strongest around the area where it started.

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
The center of the sphere has zero gravity
No, the center of the sphere is exposed to the strongest gravitational forces. They're just balanced out equally in all directions.

And you never explain where the enormous angular momentum required to place the two black-holes in orbit is supposed to come from.

Your hypothesis is completely based on ignorance.

ETA: Since the sphere of hydrogen that formed the sun in your hypothesis must have been larger than the current size of the sun, the surface gravity of that sphere must have been lower than the surface gravity of the sun.

Did you know that the gravity on the surface of the sun is only 28G? Not much at all. For comparison, a piston in a car engine can accelerate at over 3000G. (Link)
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Old 8th August 2012, 06:19 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
Your hypothesis is completely based on ignorance.
I think it's based on the desire to screw with us.
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Old 8th August 2012, 06:21 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
If we assume that the two black holes are stationary in relation to each other regarding distance and rotational movements, and if it's also assumed that both black holes have magnetic fields pointing in the same direction.
Why stop there? Why not assume that it is not two black holes, but two super-dense house cats? I mean, as long as you're making stuff up, you might as well make up something interesting.
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Old 8th August 2012, 06:22 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Yes, the equations are necessary. They should be fairly simple to extract for experts.

The peanut shape and formation into two black holes was easy to follow without equations I take it. The next step is, how to get the spin and rotation?
Anders, the equations of motion of two black holes are not the interesting or relevant part. If you really want to present a model that can be discussed in any meaningful way, we need equations that can reproduce the observable facts about the universe, inter alia, the spectral properties of stars, the temperature-mass-relation of stars, the known facts about stellar evolution, stellar neutrino flux and so on.

You can't just challenge an established theory in science by assertions. A meaningful challenge consists of

a) observational data which is in conflict with the established theory and/or
b) an alternative theoretical framework which has at least the same explanatory power as the current theory.
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Old 8th August 2012, 07:36 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
If I were satisfied with the standard models, then I would not come up with something as radical as this hypothesis. I'm not satisfied with the current standard models.
You don't even understand the current standard models.
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Old 8th August 2012, 07:51 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
You don't even understand the current standard models.
Like Anders, I am also dissatisfied with things I don't understand. Fortunately, this is America, and I can shoot things that dissatisfy me.
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Old 8th August 2012, 08:16 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Eek! That's actually a pretty good model. Here is why: Let's say we start with a sphere of hydrogen in space. When the mass reaches a large enough value, a start of a collapse happens at some point on the surface. This causes a reduction of the volume around that position on the surface. That in turn leads to the gravitational pull on the exact opposite side of the sphere increasing, causing the collapse to be polar with opposite sides. The center of the sphere has zero gravity and this leads to two 'lumps' forming and turning the sphere into a peanut-shaped double-bubble formation. As the collapse continues it accelerates within these two bubble formations, leading to two separate and opposite and equally sized black holes to form. And, no, there is no fusion happening.
You have no understanding of physics whatsoever. There are at least five basic errors in this single paragraph, but let me start with the simplest: Why would the collapse of this mass happen at its surface?
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Old 8th August 2012, 08:27 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I will not go into conspiracy theory stuff, but just ask yourself how successful the fusion reactors have been.
Exactly as predicted by theory. The theory says it will be really hard to build a useful fusion reactor. It is really hard.

The theory says it is really easy to build a toy fusion reactor. And school kids do it these days.

You are talking the most appalling, uninformed, utterly conceited drivel.

Good day, sir.
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Old 8th August 2012, 08:37 AM   #385
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Time to invoke Rennie's Law again: if you think you can disprove a significant cornerstone of science with a youtube video, you didn't understand the science.

I'm wondering if this whole thing is an attempt by a group of prankster biologists to show physicists what dealing with a creationist is like.
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Old 8th August 2012, 09:02 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
This struck a memory of reading somewhere that Sol's mass would have to be crushed down to the same size as the Earth (or smaller, can't recall) to become a black hole and that the Earth's mass would have to be crushed into a thimble to do same.
The black hole in the sun would be about 6 km in diameter (or if two rotating black holes as I wrote about previously then the diameter for each black hole would be even smaller).
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Old 8th August 2012, 09:04 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Black hole or not, I think the sun may be powered by the extraction of particles out of the vacuum. That's actually a new idea I got during this thread!
Maybe you should let people who know what they're talking about have the ideas.
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Old 8th August 2012, 09:05 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
Why stop there? Why not assume that it is not two black holes, but two super-dense house cats? I mean, as long as you're making stuff up, you might as well make up something interesting.
Because I describe why two black holes would form: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=363
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Old 8th August 2012, 09:06 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
The black hole in the sun would be about 6 km in diameter (or if two rotating black holes as I wrote about previously then the diameter for each black hole would be even smaller).
If the sun were a black hole, what would we see with, flashlights?

It's like saying the ocean is a drain.
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Old 8th August 2012, 09:15 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
If the sun were a black hole, what would we see with, flashlights?
Yep.

But otherwise we'd be fine.
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Old 8th August 2012, 09:18 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Brian-M View Post
You're saying that matter collapses into a black-hole starting from the outside? But the outside has the least gravity, least density and least pressure. Why would it happen that way?
Originally Posted by Lamuella View Post
You have no understanding of physics whatsoever. There are at least five basic errors in this single paragraph, but let me start with the simplest: Why would the collapse of this mass happen at its surface?
Where on the sphere of hydrogen would the effects of gravity be the largest? On the surface! But ok, I may have been a bit too hasty in my assumption. At what point in the sphere would the pressure be greatest? That's of course the correct question to ask.

The greatest pressure would not be at the center, because the effect of gravity would be zero there. And the pressure would not be greatest at the surface as I wrote since although the effect of gravity would be greatest there, the pressure would be greater further down into the sphere.

The point of largest pressure can be calculated with a finite element computer model if the calculations cannot be done analytically, but the point would be somewhere between the surface and the center of the sphere. So the model with a peanut shaped double-bubble formation is still valid, meaning two rotating black holes would form.
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Old 8th August 2012, 09:19 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Lamuella View Post
Time to invoke Rennie's Law again: if you think you can disprove a significant cornerstone of science with a youtube video, you didn't understand the science.

I'm wondering if this whole thing is an attempt by a group of prankster biologists to show physicists what dealing with a creationist is like.

Nah. AL's internet persona is to pretend to believe absolutely all of the wacky, completely laughably wrong on-its-face crapola the internet can provide. The more people respond, the better.
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As usual, he doesn't understand the relevant sciences, can't Google for the right thing, and appears to rely on the notion that a word salad liberally sprinkled with Google Croutons will make his argument seem coherent. -JayUtah
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Old 8th August 2012, 09:23 AM   #393
GeneMachine
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Yeah, Red, looks like it. It was fun in the beginning, but I guess I am out of here for good now. This thread has run its course.
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Old 8th August 2012, 09:32 AM   #394
Anders Lindman
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
If the sun were a black hole, what would we see with, flashlights?

It's like saying the ocean is a drain.
A quasar is powered by a black hole. That's one of the most bright and energy-emitting objects in the universe. Excuse the somewhat childish illustration again of two rotating black holes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYP6MYU-Igk

Imagine each rotating black hole as a small version of a quasar: http://preview.turbosquid.com/Previe...2cbeLarger.jpg

The energy produced by the two spinning black holes would be enormous and the blazing output of energy would form a perfect sphere, such as a star like our sun.

The particles 'fueling' the black holes are extracted out of the vacuum around them, turning virtual particles into real particles, mostly light particles like photons and neutrinos but also heavier elements to a lesser degree.
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Old 8th August 2012, 09:37 AM   #395
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The quasar is not what's producing the light though. Something's falling into it, and that is what produces the light. By definition, light having fallen into a black hole never escapes, which is why it's black, and we can't directly see it; we can only see evidence of it.
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Old 8th August 2012, 09:44 AM   #396
Anders Lindman
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Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost View Post
The quasar is not what's producing the light though. Something's falling into it, and that is what produces the light. By definition, light having fallen into a black hole never escapes, which is why it's black, and we can't directly see it; we can only see evidence of it.
What's falling into the black hole is particles. My hypothesis is that those particles, at least in the case of a (double) black hole for a star, are extracted from the vacuum.

I have posted this many times already, but just so you don't have to read the whole thread:

"Quantum physics: Shaking photons out of the vacuum - The dynamical Casimir effect the generation of photons out of the quantum vacuum induced by an accelerated body has been experimentally demonstrated using a superconducting circuit that simulates a moving mirror." -- http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...l/479303a.html
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Old 8th August 2012, 10:19 AM   #397
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If this object is creating energy out of the vacuum, why would it ever turn off? Why aren't they still around spouting energy?
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Old 8th August 2012, 10:20 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Where on the sphere of hydrogen would the effects of gravity be the largest? On the surface! But ok, I may have been a bit too hasty in my assumption. At what point in the sphere would the pressure be greatest? That's of course the correct question to ask.

The greatest pressure would not be at the center, because the effect of gravity would be zero there. And the pressure would not be greatest at the surface as I wrote since although the effect of gravity would be greatest there, the pressure would be greater further down into the sphere.

The point of largest pressure can be calculated with a finite element computer model if the calculations cannot be done analytically, but the point would be somewhere between the surface and the center of the sphere. So the model with a peanut shaped double-bubble formation is still valid, meaning two rotating black holes would form.
You're really bad at this. Really bad. Everything you just wrote is wrong, and wrong in ways that any degree of physics education at all would fix.
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Old 8th August 2012, 10:37 AM   #399
Anders Lindman
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Originally Posted by BowlOfRed View Post
If this object is creating energy out of the vacuum, why would it ever turn off? Why aren't they still around spouting energy?
Black holes can both grow by accruing mass, from nearby 'stuff' or perhaps also from the vacuum as I propose, and black holes can also lose mass through Hawking radiation.
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Old 8th August 2012, 10:41 AM   #400
Anders Lindman
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Originally Posted by Lamuella View Post
You're really bad at this. Really bad. Everything you just wrote is wrong, and wrong in ways that any degree of physics education at all would fix.
If you say I'm wrong here, you are in effect saying that the highest pressure would be at the center, but is that really the case?

Imagine an elevator going through the entire Earth, through the middle of the core, then, when the elevator reaches the center of Earth the people in it will experience zero gravity.

The highest pressure would be somewhere between the surface and the center of the sphere.
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