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Old 7th August 2012, 09:22 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
There are plenty of population I stars with masses below 0.8 Solar masses.
Ok, but then I have a tricky question: Do the population I stars with mass below 0.8 solar masses have lots of heavy elements, like the population I stars with masses above the solar mass?
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Old 7th August 2012, 09:24 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Ok, but then I have a tricky question: Do the population I stars with mass below 0.8 solar masses have lots of heavy elements, like the population I stars with masses above the solar mass?
Yes.

eta That's what makes them Population I.
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Old 7th August 2012, 09:25 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
Yes. A white dwarf or neutron star can have the same mass as a main sequence star, but a completely different composition.
How do they know the actual masses of the stars?
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Old 7th August 2012, 09:27 AM   #204
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Folks, AL is a lazy, dishonest troll. I bit-bucketed him a long time ago when it became clear he would never learn anything or even engage honestly. Don't feed the troll.
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Old 7th August 2012, 09:42 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
With the risk of making a complete fool of myself . . .
Too late.
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Old 7th August 2012, 09:46 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
There are plenty of population I stars with masses below 0.8 Solar masses.
Ha! You tried trick me!!!

"Population I star ... has mass greater than 0.08 the sun's mass" -- http://www.site.uottawa.ca:4321/astr...opulationIstar

EDIT: Oops! Sorry, my mistake, it says 0.08, I thought it said 0.8.

Last edited by Anders Lindman; 7th August 2012 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 7th August 2012, 09:55 AM   #207
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I found something I do NOT trust:

"In addition to these methods, we also have an excellent understanding of how stars work. Our models of stellar structure are excellent predictors of the properties and evolution of stars. As it turns out, the mass of a star determines its life history from day 1, for all times thereafter, not only when the star is on the Main Sequence. So actually, the position of a star on the H-R diagram is a good indicator of its mass, regardless of whether it's on the Main Sequence or not." -- http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/que...hp?number=262/

Because if the method for determining the age of stars is completely wrong, then determining their mass based on that cannot be relied upon.
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Old 7th August 2012, 09:56 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Folks, AL is a lazy, dishonest troll. I bit-bucketed him a long time ago when it became clear he would never learn anything or even engage honestly. Don't feed the troll.
But look at the up side we have Wollery making an all too rare appearance
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Old 7th August 2012, 09:59 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Because if the method for determining the age of stars is completely wrong, then determining their mass based on that cannot be relied upon.
But you have to present something that indicates our current system of dating the age of stars is wrong.
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Old 7th August 2012, 10:08 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
But you have to present something that indicates our current system of dating the age of stars is wrong.
"Elliptical galaxies have always been considered to have undergone one early star-forming period and thereafter to be devoid of star formation. ... These elliptical galaxies do shine with the diffuse, reddish glow normally associated with stars that are many thousand million years old. However, what is the underlying mix of stars that produces this elderly appearance? Could a significant number of much younger stars be 'hiding' among the older ones?" -- http://www.esa.int/esaCP/Pr_47_2002_p_EN.html
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Old 7th August 2012, 10:13 AM   #211
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"Important research at Tufts University in 2010 revealed that some of the most massive galaxies in the Universe may have formed billions of years earlier than the current models predicted." -- http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog...tense-gro.html
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Old 7th August 2012, 10:14 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
"Elliptical galaxies have always been considered to have undergone one early star-forming period and thereafter to be devoid of star formation. ... These elliptical galaxies do shine with the diffuse, reddish glow normally associated with stars that are many thousand million years old. However, what is the underlying mix of stars that produces this elderly appearance? Could a significant number of much younger stars be 'hiding' among the older ones?" -- http://www.esa.int/esaCP/Pr_47_2002_p_EN.html
And this has what to do with the age of stars?
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Old 7th August 2012, 10:15 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
"Important research at Tufts University in 2010 revealed that some of the most massive galaxies in the Universe may have formed billions of years earlier than the current models predicted." -- http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog...tense-gro.html
Again this has what to do with what? I hope you dont think that once a star forms it will burn for the entire history of the universe?
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Old 7th August 2012, 10:23 AM   #214
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- Established theory doesn't explain everything to my satisfaction even though my entire knowledge of the field is "I spent some time on Wikipedia."
- Therefore it is useless.
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Old 7th August 2012, 10:26 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
And this has what to do with the age of stars?
As I understand it, the indication of young stars in those galaxies is an anomaly inconsistent with the standard models.
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Old 7th August 2012, 10:35 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I should perhaps have been a bit clearer. How many professional scientists dare assume Einstein's relativity is wrong for example?
How many elementary school students have the intellectual courage to assume that 2 + 2 = 5?
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Old 7th August 2012, 10:43 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
As I understand it, the indication of young stars in those galaxies is an anomaly inconsistent with the standard models.
Of galaxy formation, not stellar formation. Two completely different issues
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Old 7th August 2012, 10:47 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
As I understand it...<snip>...
But you intentionally don't, on every subject.
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Old 7th August 2012, 10:47 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
My idea was that black holes can be formed out of all kinds of matter, including out of hydrogen and helium. Have I missed something that makes that impossible?
Apparently, you missed science class in high school.
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Old 7th August 2012, 11:15 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
Of galaxy formation, not stellar formation. Two completely different issues
The young stars should not be there in those galaxies according to the standard models. If the age of the stars in reality is different than what the standard models say, then there is perhaps no anomaly. The anomaly may be a result of a wrong determining of the age of the stars!
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Old 7th August 2012, 11:48 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
The young stars should not be there in those galaxies according to the standard models. If the age of the stars in reality is different than what the standard models say, then there is perhaps no anomaly. The anomaly may be a result of a wrong determining of the age of the stars!
No
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Old 7th August 2012, 11:50 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
The young stars should not be there in those galaxies according to the standard models. If the age of the stars in reality is different than what the standard models say, then there is perhaps no anomaly. The anomaly may be a result of a wrong determining of the age of the stars!
So either the entire scientific community is wrong, or YOU are.

Hmmm....

Well, since the only correct thing about any of your posts is the join date listed under your avatar, I'm going to go WAY out an a limb and say that it's you.
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Old 7th August 2012, 11:52 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Yes, invented by a person at CERN.
so you don't know the difference between the internet and the world wide web. Wow, I am blown away by your knowledge.
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Old 7th August 2012, 11:56 AM   #224
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uh... 6 pages guys?

Really?

If the sun were a black hole we'd all be dead.

Are you dead AL? No?

kthxbai
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Old 7th August 2012, 11:57 AM   #225
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Anders, is there a subject that you know a lot about? Please don't say "the internet".
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Old 7th August 2012, 11:58 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
The young stars should not be there in those galaxies according to the standard models. If the age of the stars in reality is different than what the standard models say, then there is perhaps no anomaly. The anomaly may be a result of a wrong determining of the age of the stars!
Let's put this in biological terms (apropriate since you're talking about ages). What you're saying is, essentially, that because there are members of a population that are younger than the age of the population itself, we have misjudged the age of the members of that population. This is patently rediculous--any population will NECESSARILY include younger members--any offspring will by definition be younger than the age of the population. In stars, this means that any star which formed after the galaxy formed is younger than the galaxy.

When you find a star OLDER than the galaxy, yeah, that'll be something we have to think about. But younger starts are to be expected.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:00 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
So either the entire scientific community is wrong, or YOU are.

Hmmm....

Well, since the only correct thing about any of your posts is the join date listed under your avatar, I'm going to go WAY out an a limb and say that it's you.
The scientific community admits its an anomaly!
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:01 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
No
So how would you explain the anomaly?
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:02 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Lamuella View Post
Anders, is there a subject that you know a lot about? Please don't say "the internet".
No.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:05 PM   #230
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I hadn't noticed this thread before. The answer is no.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:06 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
No.
well, thank you for being so honest.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:11 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
So how would you explain the anomaly?
What anomaly?
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:12 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Let's put this in biological terms (apropriate since you're talking about ages). What you're saying is, essentially, that because there are members of a population that are younger than the age of the population itself, we have misjudged the age of the members of that population. This is patently rediculous--any population will NECESSARILY include younger members--any offspring will by definition be younger than the age of the population. In stars, this means that any star which formed after the galaxy formed is younger than the galaxy.

When you find a star OLDER than the galaxy, yeah, that'll be something we have to think about. But younger starts are to be expected.
Would they really have called it a surprising discovery if young stars would have been expected?

Quote from the article: "However, when looking at the Universe as a whole, most of its stars are found in elliptical galaxies whose overall appearance has so far led us to believe that they, and their stars and as well, are old." -- http://www.esa.int/esaCP/Pr_47_2002_p_EN.html
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:13 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
What anomaly?
This anomaly: "However, when looking at the Universe as a whole, most of its stars are found in elliptical galaxies whose overall appearance has so far led us to believe that they, and their stars and as well, are old." -- http://www.esa.int/esaCP/Pr_47_2002_p_EN.html
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:15 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Lamuella View Post
well, thank you for being so honest.
More polite than honest. You asked me to not answer the Internet.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:18 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
How many elementary school students have the intellectual courage to assume that 2 + 2 = 5?
I'm guessing Anders did, and stuck with that assumption through his adult life.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:19 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
This anomaly: "However, when looking at the Universe as a whole, most of its stars are found in elliptical galaxies whose overall appearance has so far led us to believe that they, and their stars and as well, are old." -- http://www.esa.int/esaCP/Pr_47_2002_p_EN.html
Sorry I am still not seeing your point. Maybe if you could explain to me how eliptical galaxies form I might have a better chance of understanding what this has to do with faults in stella revolution models.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:21 PM   #238
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Anders, do you feel like you have learned something from this thread? Or would you rather say that what you called a risk in the opening post has actually happened?
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:26 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Would they really have called it a surprising discovery if young stars would have been expected?

Quote from the article: "However, when looking at the Universe as a whole, most of its stars are found in elliptical galaxies whose overall appearance has so far led us to believe that they, and their stars and as well, are old." -- http://www.esa.int/esaCP/Pr_47_2002_p_EN.html
Sure. I've stated a number of times that I've found younger animals than I expected to find. If I see a population of old critters and I find a juvenile I'm mildly surprised. But it certainly doesn't invalidate anything--stars CAN form new stars (the nebula formed by stars dying can collaps to form new ones).

The term "cherry picking" also comes to mind...
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:32 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
Sorry I am still not seeing your point. Maybe if you could explain to me how eliptical galaxies form I might have a better chance of understanding what this has to do with faults in stella revolution models.
"Elliptical galaxies are characterized by several properties that make them distinct from other classes of galaxy. They are basically huge squished balls of old stars, starved of star-making gases." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptical_galaxy

Old stars, and starved of material to make new stars = young stars in eliptical galaxies is an anomaly.
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