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Old 7th August 2012, 12:32 PM   #241
Lamuella
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
More polite than honest. You asked me to not answer the Internet.
because demonstrably you don't know much about the Internet as you confused it with the World Wide Web.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:36 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by scratchy View Post
Anders, do you feel like you have learned something from this thread? Or would you rather say that what you called a risk in the opening post has actually happened?
Those two choices are not necessarily contradicting, so I can't answer that.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:39 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Lamuella View Post
because demonstrably you don't know much about the Internet as you confused it with the World Wide Web.
The World Wide Web runs on the Internet. What's confusing about that?
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:40 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
"Elliptical galaxies are characterized by several properties that make them distinct from other classes of galaxy. They are basically huge squished balls of old stars, starved of star-making gases." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptical_galaxy

Old stars, and starved of material to make new stars = young stars in eliptical galaxies is an anomaly.
Not so much. Galaxies can merge and get new injections of gas to make new stars.

Not what was expected, but not a devastating blow for any model or theory, just a bit of a curiosity.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:42 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Sure. I've stated a number of times that I've found younger animals than I expected to find. If I see a population of old critters and I find a juvenile I'm mildly surprised. But it certainly doesn't invalidate anything--stars CAN form new stars (the nebula formed by stars dying can collaps to form new ones).

The term "cherry picking" also comes to mind...
"Elliptical galaxies have always been considered to have undergone one early star-forming period and thereafter to be devoid of star formation. However, the combination of the best and largest telescopes in space and on the ground has now clearly shown that there is more than meets the eye." -- http://www.esa.int/esaCP/Pr_47_2002_p_EN.html

I would call that more than mere cherry picking.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:44 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by wollery View Post
Not so much. Galaxies can merge and get new injections of gas to make new stars.

Not what was expected, but not a devastating blow for any model or theory, just a bit of a curiosity.
But if the galaxy was a result of merged galaxies, would it be elliptical?
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:46 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
"Elliptical galaxies have always been considered to have undergone one early star-forming period and thereafter to be devoid of star formation. However, the combination of the best and largest telescopes in space and on the ground has now clearly shown that there is more than meets the eye." -- http://www.esa.int/esaCP/Pr_47_2002_p_EN.html

I would call that more than mere cherry picking.
So those gatekeeper scientists...you know, the ones who are hiding the truth from us...where were they when this article made the stunning revelation that scientific knowlege is incomplete and not infallible?
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:49 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Those two choices are not necessarily contradicting, so I can't answer that.
I see no reason why that should make you unable to answer. Not knowing the answer would, though. But im not going to rub your nose in it, i was just a bit curious after reading the thread.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:49 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
So those gatekeeper scientists...you know, the ones who are hiding the truth from us...where were they when this article made the stunning revelation that scientific knowlege is incomplete and not infallible?
They only protect the key areas, like the cause of cosmological redshift for example, and Einstein's relativity.
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Old 7th August 2012, 12:58 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
The World Wide Web runs on the Internet. What's confusing about that?
What is this I don't even...

No. Just.... no.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:02 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
"Elliptical galaxies have always been considered to have undergone one early star-forming period and thereafter to be devoid of star formation. However, the combination of the best and largest telescopes in space and on the ground has now clearly shown that there is more than meets the eye." -- http://www.esa.int/esaCP/Pr_47_2002_p_EN.html

I would call that more than mere cherry picking.
You don't actually know what "cherry picking" means, do you?

Quote:
They only protect the key areas, like the cause of cosmological redshift for example, and Einstein's relativity.
If you're going to continue this line of discussion, provide the evidence. Otherwise, please cut out the libel and appologize to the scientists you have attacked.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:05 PM   #252
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The idea of the sun as a black hole is not my idea, I think Nassim Haramein has mentioned it, but then again he says that basically everything is a black hole, protons, and even humans and planet Earth! (If I remember it correctly.)

Nassim Haramein has interesting ideas, but also rather far-out ideas, such as:

Nassim Haramein 'Giant UFO and Black Hole Sun' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbOUtM2zdIY

So this thread is pretty mainstream compared to that!
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:08 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
If you're going to continue this line of discussion, provide the evidence. Otherwise, please cut out the libel and appologize to the scientists you have attacked.
The conspiracy stuff doesn't belong to this thread so I will focus on the science in this thread.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:09 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
The idea of the sun as a black hole is not my idea, I think Nassim Haramein has mentioned it, but then again he says that basically everything is a black hole, protons, and even humans and planet Earth!
Okay really? I mean really?

If everything is something then the qualifyer in question becomes totally meaningless. This is just silly words games (Yet again we're back to this). Playing with the language trying to create some big "Eureka" moment in a way that can't possibly actually give us more information about how the universe works.

Okay so everything is a black hole. What information does that give us?
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:10 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
The conspiracy stuff doesn't belong to this thread so I will focus on the science in this thread.
You made the accusation. Either back it up, or appologize. This would be as simple as either linking to some references proving that scientists are engaging in a (pointless and self-defeating) cover-up, or typing the words "I'm sorry, I was wrong". You can even copy and paste exactly those words if you wish.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:11 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
The conspiracy stuff doesn't belong to this thread so I will focus on the science in this thread.
May I then ask you to please provide any explanation as to how all of our known physics could be wrong without a giant conspiracy of all phycisists? You made that extraordinary claim.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:13 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Okay so everything is a black hole. What information does that give us?
I don't think he has said everything is a black hole. But the proton for example:

Nassim Haramein: The Schwarzschild Proton http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az7Kl_pL7fw
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:14 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by GeneMachine View Post
May I then ask you to please provide any explanation as to how all of our known physics could be wrong without a giant conspiracy of all phycisists? You made that extraordinary claim.
Hmm... A conspiracy is probably needed. So it was probably good that it was mentioned in this thread, but from now on I will skip all conspiracy stuff.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:15 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by GeneMachine View Post
May I then ask you to please provide any explanation as to how all of our known physics could be wrong without a giant conspiracy of all phycisists? You made that extraordinary claim.

AL doesn't DO explanation or evidence. He's a not particularly entertaining troll, who pretends to believe all sorts of crazy stuff because he knows the folks will respond.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:16 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by TheRedWorm View Post
AL doesn't DO explanation or evidence. He's a not particularly entertaining troll, who pretends to believe all sorts of crazy stuff because he knows the folks will respond.
I must be new here...
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:24 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
The World Wide Web runs on the Internet. What's confusing about that?
It's like claiming you know all about Frankenstein and then thinking that's the name of the monster. It betrays ignorance.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:25 PM   #262
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Uh oh...

If the sun isn't a star but a black hole, but there are no black holes, are we just our own imagination?
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:33 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
They only protect the key areas, like the cause of cosmological redshift for example, and Einstein's relativity.
What are their names?
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:33 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
More polite than honest. You asked me to not answer the Internet.
Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
.. how the sun works cannot even be explained by the standard theories in physics! See for example:

"Coronal heating problem

Why is the Sun's Corona (atmosphere layer) so much hotter than the Sun's surface? Why is the magnetic reconnection effect many orders of magnitude faster than predicted by standard models?" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ems_in_physics
For someone who claims the internet as their specialist subject, you could learn how to use a search engine: Tiny Flares Responsible for Outsized Heat of Sun's Atmosphere

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
... I will focus on the science in this thread.
No; from your posts here, it's clear you neither know nor understand the science.

There's little doubt you're in pole position for the Dunning-Kruger gold medal of 2012.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:34 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Hmm... A conspiracy is probably needed. So it was probably good that it was mentioned in this thread, but from now on I will skip all conspiracy stuff.
Translation: "Henceforth I will only make up sciency-sounding stuff."
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:34 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Uh oh...

If the sun isn't a star but a black hole, but there are no black holes, are we just our own imagination?
Black hole or not, I think the sun may be powered by the extraction of particles out of the vacuum. That's actually a new idea I got during this thread! First I had an idea about Hawking radiation but that turned out to be a way too tiny amount of energy radiation (and the wrong kind of spectrum).
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:36 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
With the risk of making a complete fool of myself, I'm wondering if the sun could be a black hole? I did some searches on the web but all I could find was questions about if the sun will become a black hole.

The so-called Hawking radiation predicts that black holes radiate energy. If the sun is a black hole, how much energy would it generate, given that the mass of the sun is much larger than predicted by the standard models?

The mass of the sun as a black hole can be calculated from its diameter.
WTF? Bollox! No! Does it LOOK like one?! From every observation we've made, it's a big ball of gas/plasma. If you view it with a special filtered telescope, you can see the surface made of roiling gas and plasma, glowing from the heat. Heck, even observation of sun spots and similar irregularities, which can be done with nothing more than a pinhole camera, is a clue. You can also see the gas streaming out -- how does that happen with a BH?! Except for the Hawking radiation, BH's don't _emit_ stuff. Rather, they pull it _in_.

How much energy would it generate as a black hole? I guess you're referring to the Hawking radiation. In that case, very, very little. In fact, the more massive the BH, the less energy generated..

And if it were big enough the horizon was the radius of the sun's surface, it'd have gobbled up our planet easily as the gravity would have been so much stronger due to the vastly higher mass. Even going fast enough to orbit, it'd likely get shredded by the tidal force to form a ring.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:37 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
.. Nassim Haramein ... says that basically everything is a black hole, protons, and even humans and planet Earth!
Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I don't think he has said everything is a black hole.
One of these contradicts the other. Are we surprised? No.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:37 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by GeneMachine View Post
I must be new here...
Relatively (welcome, BTW ), but to be completely fair, AL usually haunts the CT section.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:38 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
For someone who claims the internet as their specialist subject, you could learn how to use a search engine: Tiny Flares Responsible for Outsized Heat of Sun's Atmosphere
That's weird. The coronal heat problem is listed as one of the unsolved problems in physics. If someone has solved the problem that's a HUGE discovery. Why hasn't the Wikipedia article been changed? The NASA article is from 2009!

ETA: Wait a minute, your claim is too strong. Here is why the Wikipedia article hasn't been changed:

"The problem of coronal heating is still unsolved, although many steps ahead have been done in this direction and other evidences of nanoflares have been found in the solar corona." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanoflares

Last edited by Anders Lindman; 7th August 2012 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:39 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Black hole or not, I think the sun may be powered by the extraction of particles out of the vacuum. That's actually a new idea I got during this thread! First I had an idea about Hawking radiation but that turned out to be a way too tiny amount of energy radiation (and the wrong kind of spectrum).
Hey, the Sun's a ZPM!!!
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:42 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Uh oh...

If the sun isn't a star but a black hole, but there are no black holes, are we just our own imagination?
The average population of black holes is zero. Any black hole you see is the figment of a deranged imagination.

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman
Why hasn't the Wikipedia article been changed?
Is there a smiley for bashing one's head against a wall? Because this comment deserves that.

Quote:
I think the sun may be powered by the extraction of particles out of the vacuum.
Why? What evidence do you have? And when are you either going to support your assertion that scientists are committing fraud or appologize for it?
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:43 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
One of these contradicts the other. Are we surprised? No.
Notice the word 'basically'. I'm surprised that you didn't detect that.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:45 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Why? What evidence do you have?
I posted an article about extraction of photons out of the vacuum earlier. That's a start at least.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:46 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
But black holes can generate energy out the vacuum of space:

"Physical insight into the process may be gained by imagining that particle-antiparticle radiation is emitted from just beyond the event horizon. This radiation does not come directly from the black hole itself, but rather is a result of virtual particles being "boosted" by the black hole's gravitation into becoming real particles." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation
There's a formula given there to calculate the power of the radiation.

It goes, for mass = Sun's mass, a Hawking power of about 9.0 x 10^-29 W. That is ~1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times weaker than a 100 W light bulb. The Sun emits power 4,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000x that of this Hawking power figure. And if we took the horizon radius = the Sun's radius, we'd have to multiply those figures by about 10 billion and divide the Hawking power figure by the same amount.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:48 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by mike3 View Post
There's a formula given there to calculate the power of the radiation.

It goes, for mass = Sun's mass, a Hawking power of about 9.0 x 10^-29 W. That is ~1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times weaker than a 100 W light bulb. The Sun emits power 4,200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000x that of this Hawking power figure. And if we took the horizon radius = the Sun's radius, we'd have to multiply those figures by about 10 billion and divide the Hawking power figure by the same amount.
I have already dropped the Hawking radiation idea.
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Old 7th August 2012, 01:57 PM   #277
dlorde
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
ETA: Wait a minute, your claim is too strong.
My claim was that you neither know nor understand the science.

That you dash to wikipedia at the first suggestion of contrary evidence only confirms it.
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Old 7th August 2012, 02:01 PM   #278
Anders Lindman
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
My claim was that you neither know nor understand the science.

That you dash to wikipedia at the first suggestion of contrary evidence only confirms it.
"Things have changed. Although the details of the answer are not completely known, it does seem that the solution is near." -- http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/sc...l1/corona.html

That the solution seems near is not the same as that the problem has been solved. Your claim was too big.
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Old 7th August 2012, 02:02 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Notice the word 'basically'. I'm surprised that you didn't detect that.
Oh, right - of course there's significant difference between 'basically everything' and 'everything' -because when you say 'basically' you mean 'not' ?
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Old 7th August 2012, 02:02 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
That the solution seems near is not the same as that the problem has been solved. Your claim was too big.
Sorry, but that's rich coming from a guy spouting barely-supported assertions and flagrant libel. When you make broad, sweeping accusations against entire communities without evidence you don't get to complain about the quality of evidence your opponents present.
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