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Tags depression , psychiatry

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Old 4th August 2019, 02:37 PM   #561
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
...usual insults snipped...
Calling lithium a cure is outrageous. A successful treatment for many when dosed continuously, but not even close to a cure
...even more insults snipped !...
You need to actually read what you reply to.
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Psychiatry has many cures as in treatments that control conditions, e.g. lithium for bipolar disorder
Lithium is a "cure as in treatments that control conditions" as I wrote.
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Old 4th August 2019, 02:50 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The thread has lots of pages and lots of detail why it's a failure..
Which is extremely wrong. The thread has what you imagine to be failures and that anyone who reads your sources sees are not failures of psychiatry.

This thread started on 8 June 2016 with mispleading us about the case of Ashley Peacock being a failure of psychiatry. Ashley was not "held in a small cell in solitary confinement for 5 years". Ashley was in isolation with only 90 minutes a day outside of his room because the mental health unit did not have the resources to handle a patient with an increasing frequency of psychotic episodes. That was a failure of the health system, not psychiatry.

The errors just kept on coming!
10 June 2016 The Atheist: A paper showing continued testing of drugs used in psychiatry is not a failure of psychiatry
10 June 2016 The Atheist: A paper not about exercise is not about exercise!
10 June 2016 The Atheist: Can you understand that this paper does not state that exercise is better than drugs?
14 June 2016 The Atheist: How many drug companies misreported suicide attempts and suicidal thoughts events in the paper that the news article you cited reported on?
17 June 2016: If sales revenues = usage, the numbers show that only a few % more people take Aspirin™ Cardio rather than Aspirin™. This is evidence against The Atheist's "most' (90% or 75% or "main" or whatever goal posts he moves to next) assertion.
17 June 2016: The sales revenue from aspirin for heart health were slightly less than for general health in 2013.
29 August 2016 The Atheist: Can you understand that your news article does not mention babies?
29 August 2016 The Atheist: Can you understand that the study never studied babies?
29 August 2016 The Atheist: Can you understand that pediatricians and GPs are not psychiatrists?
29 August 2016 The Atheist: What is your evidence to back up your assertion about "babies" being prescribed antipsychotics being a fail?
30 August 2016 The Atheist: "Effects of Exercise Training on Older Patients With Major Depression" = equally effective.
30 August 2016 The Atheist: "Is Exercise a Viable Treatment for Depression?" = to a comparable extent.
30 August 2016 The Atheist: "The Benefits of Exercise for the Clinically Depressed" = potentially powerful adjunct to existing treatments (as pointed out a couple of months ago!).
30 August 2016 The Atheist: "Exercise Treatment for Major Depression: Maintenance of Therapeutic Benefit at 10 Months" ( a 16 year old paper) = comparable across the three treatment conditions at 4 months, possible smaller relapse rate for those in the exercise group at 10 months
etc.

Last edited by Reality Check; 4th August 2019 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 5th August 2019, 08:14 PM   #563
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Between the misdirection, obfuscation and outright lies, your posting is indistinguishable from a shill.
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Old 12th August 2019, 08:26 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Between the misdirection, obfuscation and outright lies, your posting is indistinguishable from a shill.
Insults do not hide the fact that this thread is has a record of 3 years of what you imagine to be failures that are not failures of psychiatry and not supported by your sources and errors about those sources.
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Old 26th August 2019, 12:07 PM   #565
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More abject fail: https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/...-records-began
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Old 26th August 2019, 02:52 PM   #566
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Thumbs down More misleading "The Ongoing Failure of Pyschiatry" news

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
27 August 2019 The Atheist: More misleading "The Ongoing Failure of Pyschiatry" news (increasing suicide rates in NZ).
Suicide rates highest since records began
The story is not increasing suicide rates among psychiatric patients. It is increasing suicide rates in the general population due to many factors
Quote:
"The reasons people make this decision are numerous and depend on many factors: their early life experiences at home and at school, their employment status, their mental health, their economic and health status, their sense of belonging, their sense of purpose, their world view and more," the Coroner said.
This is a political failure in not financing appropriate mental heath programs enough. There are suicide prevention initiatives taking place.

No surprise here. That basically happened in the first post of the thread!
8 June 2016 The Atheist misleads us about the case of Ashley Peacock (a failure of mental health resources) being a failure of psychiatry.

Last edited by Reality Check; 26th August 2019 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 26th August 2019, 11:23 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The story is not increasing suicide rates among psychiatric patients. It is increasing suicide rates in the general population due to many factors
There is so much fail in that statement I'll just repeat it and let it speak for itself.

A perfect shill paragraph.
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Old 27th August 2019, 07:09 AM   #568
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How is a high rate of suicide among people where x large percentage of them are not seeing a psychiatrist, a failure of psychiatry? RC is correct that the article is about the whole population, so it’d only suggest failure of psychiatry if everybody saw psychiatrists.

Last edited by Lithrael; 27th August 2019 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 27th August 2019, 09:18 AM   #569
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Has anybody mentioned the replication crisis in psychology?
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Old 27th August 2019, 09:21 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
There is so much fail in that statement I'll just repeat it and let it speak for itself.
Shouldn't more fail mean more counter-arguments? That's bizarre.
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Old 27th August 2019, 12:22 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
How is a high rate of suicide among people where x large percentage of them are not seeing a psychiatrist, a failure of psychiatry?
Holy carp, I can't believe I have to spell it out, but it's fairly simple.

Mental health is the preserve of the psychiatric industry.

If they're missing a large number of people with suicidal tendencies, then they've clearly been looking the wrong way, just as the dumb pigs were looking the wrong way and allowed a bloke to top 51 muslins. The problem isn't new - suicide rates in NZ have been terrible for decades and the psychiatric industry is responsible for finding the answer, just as kidney specialists would be answerable for unexplained rises in kidney disease.

They've been doing their usual time-wasting handing out placebo Prozac tablets instead of doing their damned homework and are responsible for the increase.
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Old 27th August 2019, 12:26 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Shouldn't more fail mean more counter-arguments? That's bizarre.
I have this tendency to expect people at a forum like this to be able to work out simple 1+1 questions, but since I was wrong, I've now done so.

Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Has anybody mentioned the replication crisis in psychology?
No, so go ahead.

I presume this is the starting point?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replic...#In_psychology

Quote:
psychology and social psychology in particular, has found itself at the center of several scandals involving outright fraudulent research
Looks entirely relevant, and the page is all yours...
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Old 27th August 2019, 01:47 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
...
Usual insults ignoring the reality that everyone in the world is not under psychiatric care !
Suicides in the general population are not caused by a failure of psychiatry. Suicides in the general population are caused by many factors as stated in the article he cited ! Suicide rates go up in economic recessions! Suicide rates go up when suicide prevention programs decrease! etc.
27 August 2019 The Atheist: More misleading "The Ongoing Failure of Pyschiatry" news (increasing suicide rates in NZ).

Misinforming the forum or ignorance about what he cites is what this thread is about starting with the first post.
8 June 2016 The Atheist misleads us about the case of Ashley Peacock (a failure of mental health resources) being a failure of psychiatry.

Last edited by Reality Check; 27th August 2019 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:11 PM   #574
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Exclamation Mental health is the preserve of the psychiatric industry" ignorance

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Mental health is the preserve of the psychiatric industry.
28 August 2019 The Atheist: "Mental health is the preserve of the psychiatric industry" ignorance.

Psychiatry is the treatment of people with mental health issues. Psychiatrists treat people who report to them or are sent to them with mental health issues. Some of those are people with suicidal tendencies. It is these people that psychiatrists can help.

The mental health of the general population is mainly the preserve of governments who have the budget to implement suicide prevention programs. See Working to prevent suicide Ministry of Health NZ.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If they're missing a large number of people with suicidal tendencies....
28 August 2019 The Atheist: Still cannot understand that the story is not increasing suicide rates among psychiatric patients.

Suicide rates highest since records began is a coroner reporting that provisional NZ suicide rates reported to the coroner's office are the highest since records began !

I emphasize the provisional nature of the numbers because there is an increase of 17 deaths from the last year. The resolution of active cases may change that.
Quote:
New Zealand's suicide rate has hit the highest level since records began, with 668 deaths in the year to June.

That's 17 deaths more than last year - a rate of 13.93 per 100,000 people, compared to 13.67 per 100,000 in 2018.

The annual provisional suicide statistics were released today by Chief Coroner Judge Deborah Marshall, who offered her condolences to the families and friends of those who had died.
...
The provisional statistics include active cases that are still before the Coroner who will determine whether they were suicides.
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Old 27th August 2019, 02:28 PM   #575
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Has anybody mentioned the replication crisis in psychology?
That is a well known issue in many sciences, especially psychology. A main principle in science is that repeating a study should get the same results. However we find that repeating some studies does not get exactly the same results. The effects can be less than reported or even zero. That does not make the documented ongoing successes of psychiatry go away. The thread topic is psychiatry and the replication issues with some psychology studies are almost irrelevant. Psychiatry does have a basis in psychology but the main psychiatry treatments are drug based. These have been replicated again and again!

Replication crisis. For example, medicine is not a "ongoing failure" because "only 11% of the pre-clinical cancer studies could be replicated", etc.

Last edited by Reality Check; 27th August 2019 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:07 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Holy carp, I can't believe I have to spell it out, but it's fairly simple.

Mental health is the preserve of the psychiatric industry.

If they're missing a large number of people with suicidal tendencies, then they've clearly been looking the wrong way, just as the dumb pigs were looking the wrong way and allowed a bloke to top 51 muslins.
Really? This view would never have occurred to me. Itís as foreign a concept as blaming dentists for the poor dental health of a population that doesnít have the money, time, or inclination to go see dentists.
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Old 27th August 2019, 03:45 PM   #577
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Really? This view would never have occurred to me. Itís as foreign a concept as blaming dentists for the poor dental health of a population that doesnít have the money, time, or inclination to go see dentists.
That is a good analogy showing how The Atheist is not understanding the story he is citing, Lithrael.
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Old 27th August 2019, 04:01 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
If they're missing a large number of people with suicidal tendencies, then they've clearly been looking the wrong way, just as the dumb pigs were looking the wrong way and allowed a bloke to top 51 muslins.
Yet another error from The Atheist: No "pigs" were looking the wrong way to miss the planning for the Christchurch mosque shootings. The New Zealand police ("pigs") are not the main agency that look for possible terrorist activity. That is the role of security agencies who occasionally use police and other governmental resources.

We do not know yet why this attack slipped thru the security net. Maybe resource limitations that lead to concentrating on the obvious threats from the usual terrorists. Maybe a mistaken idea that white supremacists were not the threat.
Royal Commission of Inquiry announced following the Christchurch terror attacks
Quote:
The key agencies taking part in the inquiry would include the New Zealand SIS, GCSB, NZ Police, Customs, Immigration and any other relevant Government agencies or departments.
Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) is the agency that monitors communication and should have picked up the white supremacist internet rants and threats.
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Old 27th August 2019, 04:12 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The problem isn't new - suicide rates in NZ have been terrible for decades and the psychiatric industry is responsible for finding the answer, just as kidney specialists would be answerable for unexplained rises in kidney disease.
Yet more errors by The Atheist with the usual "psychiatric industry" ignorance - psychiatry is a profession.

Suicide rates in NZ have been terrible for decades and mental health professionals have been telling the NZ government and NZ people that for those decades !
Psychiatrists have found answers for suicidal tendencies and apply when they can.
The rise in suicides is not unexplained - it is basically explained in what he cited!
Suicide rates highest since records began
  1. "their early life experiences at home and at school,
  2. their employment status,
  3. their mental health,
  4. their economic and health status,
  5. their sense of belonging,
  6. their sense of purpose,
  7. their world view and more,"
    the Coroner said.
Mental heath is only 1 of 7 listed factors in suicide.
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Old 27th August 2019, 05:21 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
That is a well known issue in many sciences, especially psychology. A main principle in science is that repeating a study should get the same results. However we find that repeating some studies does not get exactly the same results. The effects can be less than reported or even zero. That does not make the documented ongoing successes of psychiatry go away. The thread topic is psychiatry and the replication issues with some psychology studies are almost irrelevant. Psychiatry does have a basis in psychology but the main psychiatry treatments are drug based. These have been replicated again and again!

Replication crisis. For example, medicine is not a "ongoing failure" because "only 11% of the pre-clinical cancer studies could be replicated", etc.
Psychiatry is deeply rooted in psychology. and most often both are recommended for individuals with mental health ailments. You cannot fairly marginalize the intimate link between them.

Speaking in generalities: There have been many different collaborations consisting of qualified scientist who set out to replicate 50 to 100 experiments. These experiments are pulled from peer-reviewed journals and claim very meaningful results that influence all aspects of psychology. TED talks and book sales ensue. The average success rate of these collaborators for duplication varies between 40 to 60%. You may feel comfortable dismissing this, I am not.

I'm not concerned with research that results in a failure to prove a hypothesis. I'm concerned with research that is published and accepted, which is a false-positive result.

With all of that said, I believe that we are better off with this area of quasi-scientific inquiry than without it.
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Old 27th August 2019, 06:59 PM   #581
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Psychiatry is deeply rooted in psychology. and most often both are recommended for individuals with mental health ailments. You cannot fairly marginalize the intimate link between them.
I am not marginalizing the connection as I wrote: Psychiatry does have a basis in psychology. If you want, replace "basis" with "foundation" or "deep roots". Psychiatry also has drugs and studies of these drugs have replicated over and over again.

I am not dismissing that the replication of psychology studies has a rather low success rate (in my opinion from a physics background) - see replication crisis. What I am saying is that I have seen no evidence that this relates to any failures of psychiatry which is the subject of this thread. Or for that matter any failures of psychology.

BTW: replication crisis just lists 2 studies that set out to replicate 49 studies finding that 27 could be successfully replicated. However there may be other studies. A major study of published replications found 78.9% to be successful. So over all a 50 to 80% successful replication rate looks reasonable. Still too low for me in my personal opinion.
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Old 28th August 2019, 10:54 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Really? This view would never have occurred to me. Itís as foreign a concept as blaming dentists for the poor dental health of a population that doesnít have the money, time, or inclination to go see dentists.
Foreign? That's exactly how the dentistry industry works.

We have a nicely analogous situation in NZ, where some areas of deprived families have terrible dental health. Who leads the charge at introducing new programs, additional funding, and even legislative changes?

The dentists.
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Old 28th August 2019, 01:59 PM   #583
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Exclamation An "exactly how the dentistry industry works" fantasy

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Foreign? That's exactly how the dentistry industry works.
29 August 2019 The Atheist: An "exactly how the dentistry industry works" fantasy

The analogy was: It’s as foreign a concept as blaming dentists for the poor dental health of a population that doesn’t have the money, time, or inclination to go see dentists

Dentists are not blamed for the dental heath of people who do not have the money to go to dentists..
Dentists are not blamed for the dental heath of people who do not have the time to go to dentists.
Dentists are not blamed for the dental heath of people who do not have the inclination to go to dentists.
NZ does not force people to go to dentists. There are people that just do not want to visit dentists . Thus dentists are not responsible for people that do not visit dentists.

Ditto for mental health:
NZ does not force people to go to psychiatrists. There are people that just do not want to visit psychiatrists. Thus psychiatrists are not responsible for people that do not visit psychiatrists. If people commits suicide for non-mental health reasons and have not visited psychiatrists, that is not anything to do with psychiatrists. What psychiatrists do is advocate better access for suicide (from any reason) prevention programs.

Dentists advocating better access to dental care is a good thing! It is government health agencies which lead the charge of introducing new programs, additional funding, and even legislative changes to extend dental access as advised by health professionals including dental associations.

Last edited by Reality Check; 28th August 2019 at 02:09 PM.
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