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Tags depression , psychiatry

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Old 2nd September 2016, 12:38 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What? No I didn't.

Just gotta ask - are you actually reading the entirety of my posts, or are you stopping as soon as you see something you think you disagree with?
No, the problem is that you cherry-picked one quote that seemed to support you, then doubled up with the wimpy addendum.

Harvard is quite clear:

Quote:
They found that the people who exercised regularly after completing the study, regardless of which treatment they were on originally, were less likely to relapse into depression.
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Old 2nd September 2016, 12:57 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
of course. Itīs easier to drug yourself than to face your traumas, than to face who you are, than to face what you donīt want to face.
sounds incredibly condescending there. have you ever suffered a major mental health issue?
suggest you walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

I wouldn't, be alive today without psychiatry and counselling.
I wish I could have had help as a child.
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Old 2nd September 2016, 01:52 PM   #283
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I was thinking of cognitive behavioral therapy, which is demonstrated to be effective.
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Old 2nd September 2016, 06:43 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post
well, I was not even thinking of GROUP therapy. I was think of psychoanalysis.
In your experience or opinion, what exactly do you think psychoanalysis involves?
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Old 2nd September 2016, 07:04 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post



You're holding a mentally ill person as the best resource for mental illness?

Whoa.



Damn good idea - multiply the subjectivity of a patient by getting the subjective uninformed opinion of their family.

Gotcha.

Or even better, follow the evidence that shows time and time again that the best results at treating depression are exercise-based programs.

1

2

3

4
I rarely ever share details about my childhood but I feel that I need to now. There are many genetic components that affect mental health, there is no cure for paranoid schizophrenia. My mother was a paranoid schizophrenic/anorexic. She exercised every day of her life but it did not prevent her recurrent "spells". Thorazine was the only thing that kept her in some kind of reasonable shape if you could get her to take it, non compliance was always a real issue.

So let me tell you about what growing up with a schizo mother was like: I could never depend on her to pick me up from school. If I ended up walking home I was always uneasy about what I might walk into, so I made my younger sister and brother wait outside until I scoped things out. There were times when I would find her catatonic, other times when she was manic and "redecorating" which essentially meant tearing the house apart. She always thought that burglars were spying on us and had the house boobie trapped. Needless to say, it was not a safe environment. I learned from an early age how to be somewhat self sufficient. If it hadn't been for my Dad and the neighbor lady who lived next door to us I'm not certain what would have happened.

Tragedy struck, Dad died when I was 10. Luckily we had family that could take us in. My mother relinquished her parental rights but no one in the family was prepared to take all three of us. The neighbor lady and her husband decided to assume custodial care of all three of us so we could stay together. Mother remained in our home so we still had contact and as the years went by her hospitalizations became more frequent and she eventually just never regained any sense of normalcy. The last time I saw her was when I was 20. She left the house and never returned. Five years later her body was found in a rural area one state over, she had died of exposure. We aren't sure what her life had been like in that 5 year period but the best we could tell from tracing back her path, she appeared to have been homeless most of that time.

Now you tell me again how exercise was supposed to fix that....

There are varying degrees of depression, not all depression is situational. There are also genetic components for depression. For those that have situational depression or dysthymia, yes exercise is probably all that is needed. But rarely will a physician depend on exercise alone as a treatment because of the risk of suicide. The point of medication for depression is so that other things like counseling and exercise will be more affective. The same set of genetic markers influence a person's predisposition for autism/schizophrenia/anorexia/ as well as certain types of depression. Environment, such as certain viral exposures, nurture versus nature, have everything to do with how susceptible one might be to any of these conditions. There is no cure for any of them, only treatment for the symptoms, exercise alone is not the treatment of choice.
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Old 2nd September 2016, 09:29 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Now you tell me again how exercise was supposed to fix that....
I don't think I've mentioned schizophrenia.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
There are varying degrees of depression, not all depression is situational. There are also genetic components for depression. For those that have situational depression or dysthymia, yes exercise is probably all that is needed.
I'd be prepared to go out on a limb and guess that a majority - probably a substantial majority - of cases of depression are situational.
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Old 3rd September 2016, 05:05 AM   #287
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The topic was the ongoing failure of psychiatry.If you only wanted to discuss depression then the topic should be specific. I don't see psychiatry as a failure because before it was developed as a field of medicine people were considered to be demon possessed. After the middle ages there were some nuns and priests that began to recognize mental illness as just that, an illness, but there was no treatment. People would lock the insane up in institutions which were not much better than what happened to my mother who wandered off and eventually died of exposure.

Psychiatry isn't perfect and there is only so much that can be done with medication and therapies but it is vastly better than what it was even in the 1960's-1980's. Depression can be the beginning of more severe forms of mental illness with the diagnosis arriving after many years of treatment, most often not affective, such as relying on exercise alone to supposedly "cure" the person. You never "cure" the person, once you fall victim of even situational depression, that is an environmental factor that will forever leave you vulnerable for developing more severe forms of mental illness if you have a genetic predisposition.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1940091/
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Old 3rd September 2016, 12:44 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The topic was the ongoing failure of psychiatry.If you only wanted to discuss depression then the topic should be specific.
Sorry, I think we're talking at cross-purposes - the thread is indeed about all or any psychiatric issues. I was noting that I hadn't made any comment about schizophrenia & exercise.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't see psychiatry as a failure because before it was developed as a field of medicine people were considered to be demon possessed. After the middle ages there were some nuns and priests that began to recognize mental illness as just that, an illness, but there was no treatment. People would lock the insane up in institutions which were not much better than what happened to my mother who wandered off and eventually died of exposure.
There are quite a few parts of the world where Bedlam still exists, and as shown by evidence from at least USA & NZ in the thread, some of our institutions aren't actually that much better.

It's part of why I think it is failing and has failed.

My sister was banged up in a loony bin for a few months when she was 18. I was only 4 at the time so remember nothing of that, but 53 years later she's every bit as looney tunes as she was when they put her in.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Psychiatry isn't perfect and there is only so much that can be done with medication and therapies but it is vastly better than what it was even in the 1960's-1980's.
That's where I have serious doubts.

The only vast difference I can see in mental health between 1970 and 2010 is the volume and percentage of people with mental illness.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
You never "cure" the person, once you fall victim of even situational depression, that is an environmental factor that will forever leave you vulnerable for developing more severe forms of mental illness if you have a genetic predisposition.
You don't cure people with HIV or cancer, either. Stopping it is enough.
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Old 3rd September 2016, 01:51 PM   #289
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You can't stop it, you can only ameliorate the symptoms. Relying on exercise alone is not sufficient if there is a genetic predisposition. That's why your sister is still looney and my mother is dead. As I said, developing depression has a genetic component to it and depression is also a risk factor for developing more serious types of mental illnesses.
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Old 3rd September 2016, 07:58 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
That's why your sister is still looney ...
I don't know that her issue had anything to do with depression.
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Old 4th September 2016, 07:44 AM   #291
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Neither do I since "looney" is used as a catch phrase to refer to anything from being eccentric to severe mental illness.
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Old 6th September 2016, 05:17 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
I was thinking of cognitive behavioral therapy, which is demonstrated to be effective.
But it doesn't have the panache of classic quackary like Freudian psychology. We can really raise the bar on that and go full Youngian.
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Old 6th September 2016, 09:27 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
You can't stop it, you can only ameliorate the symptoms. Relying on exercise alone is not sufficient if there is a genetic predisposition. That's why your sister is still looney and my mother is dead. As I said, developing depression has a genetic component to it and depression is also a risk factor for developing more serious types of mental illnesses.
In my case even with regular exercise and CBT, the best I could do was tread water and avert disaster
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Old 7th September 2016, 12:09 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
No, the problem is that you cherry-picked one quote that seemed to support you, then doubled up with the wimpy addendum.

Harvard is quite clear:
How are you NOT engaging in cherry picking with that quote, especially when my quote is from the EXACT same source?
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Old 7th September 2016, 12:19 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The same set of genetic markers influence a person's predisposition for autism/schizophrenia/anorexia/ as well as certain types of depression.
I'm curious about this. My family has several cases of bipolar disorder, does that fall under the heading of depression that shares genetic markers with autism? I ask, because we also have several cases of autism spectrum, albeit very mild. My grandfather is 99% autism spectrum (never diagnosed), and my grandmother was bipolar. Of their children, 2 are bipolar (my aunts), 1 is autism spectrum (my mother). Of the next generation, my aunt's son has Aspergers, as do I, and my sister is bipolar. My sister's son has Aspergers... her daughter seems normal so far ... But my brother in law's mother and sister are both bipolar, and one of his sister's sons has fairly extreme autism.

I always figured it was just "takes after grandpa" or "takes after grandma"... but if the two are genetically linked that would make a lot of sense. Luckily, both the bipolar disorder and the autism spectrum characteristics are mostly mild. My sister is the only one with symptoms extreme enough to need real medical management. For the rest of us, being aware of our conditions and tendencies is *usually* sufficient.
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Old 7th September 2016, 12:53 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm curious about this. My family has several cases of bipolar disorder, does that fall under the heading of depression that shares genetic markers with autism? I ask, because we also have several cases of autism spectrum, albeit very mild. My grandfather is 99% autism spectrum (never diagnosed), and my grandmother was bipolar. Of their children, 2 are bipolar (my aunts), 1 is autism spectrum (my mother). Of the next generation, my aunt's son has Aspergers, as do I, and my sister is bipolar. My sister's son has Aspergers... her daughter seems normal so far ... But my brother in law's mother and sister are both bipolar, and one of his sister's sons has fairly extreme autism.

I always figured it was just "takes after grandpa" or "takes after grandma"... but if the two are genetically linked that would make a lot of sense. Luckily, both the bipolar disorder and the autism spectrum characteristics are mostly mild. My sister is the only one with symptoms extreme enough to need real medical management. For the rest of us, being aware of our conditions and tendencies is *usually* sufficient.
There appear to be some common genetic loci for these disorders ;

https://genomemedicine.biomedcentral.../10.1186/gm102
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Old 7th September 2016, 01:18 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
There appear to be some common genetic loci for these disorders ;

https://genomemedicine.biomedcentral.../10.1186/gm102
That's going to piss off all the people who screeched that autism isn't psychiatry's problem way back in the thread.
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Old 7th September 2016, 03:17 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm curious about this. My family has several cases of bipolar disorder, does that fall under the heading of depression that shares genetic markers with autism? I ask, because we also have several cases of autism spectrum, albeit very mild. My grandfather is 99% autism spectrum (never diagnosed), and my grandmother was bipolar. Of their children, 2 are bipolar (my aunts), 1 is autism spectrum (my mother). Of the next generation, my aunt's son has Aspergers, as do I, and my sister is bipolar. My sister's son has Aspergers... her daughter seems normal so far ... But my brother in law's mother and sister are both bipolar, and one of his sister's sons has fairly extreme autism.

I always figured it was just "takes after grandpa" or "takes after grandma"... but if the two are genetically linked that would make a lot of sense. Luckily, both the bipolar disorder and the autism spectrum characteristics are mostly mild. My sister is the only one with symptoms extreme enough to need real medical management. For the rest of us, being aware of our conditions and tendencies is *usually* sufficient.
Yes, according to research they are linked and severity varies according to what you've inherited and what you've been exposed to in life.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/news/science...ic-roots.shtml

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/309963.php

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/e...a-genetic-code

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...ticlekey=41428
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Old 7th September 2016, 03:32 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's going to piss off all the people who screeched that autism isn't psychiatry's problem way back in the thread.
Seems a fantasy, The Atheist, because the posts "way back in the thread" are about autism being psychiatry's problem, e.g. in alleviating the symptoms.
In the real world, autism is thought to have multiple causes and thus needs treating by multiple medical fields including psychiatry.
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Old 7th September 2016, 03:36 PM   #300
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Autism might not be psychiatry's problem. I would think Asperger's would be more of a neurological difference not necessarily requiring medication. Profound autism might be a different story as far as what discipline overlaps with treating the symptoms.

I'm not a big fan of treating ADHD with medication if restructuring a kid's school experience can solve the problem but that too depends on how severe the ADHD is and how bad it affects the kid's functioning.
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Old 7th September 2016, 03:51 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Seems a fantasy, The Atheist, because the posts "way back in the thread" are about autism being psychiatry's problem, e.g. in alleviating the symptoms.
In the real world, autism is thought to have multiple causes and thus needs treating by multiple medical fields including psychiatry.
I think it was more that he was conflating a specific patient's management with a specialty's progress in treatment. eg: Joe the cancer patient falls down the stairs, therefore oncology is a failure. Welllll, no.
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Old 7th September 2016, 04:43 PM   #302
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You can blame hybridization with Neanderthals and Denisovans for some of these genetic predispositions. We inherited and kept several genetic mutations from these lines that eventually evolved into modern humans.

The mutations that cause these conditions were turned off in Neanderthal and Denisovans but modern humans got the "turned on" version right around 80-60,000 years ago, about the time we started painting on the walls of caves.

The very thing that makes us the creative and successful modern humans that we are today are the very things that create these genetic predispositions for certain types of mental illnesses. This is why the traits have not been weeded out through evolutionary inheritance, at least not yet.Who isn't familiar with the stereotypical "Mad Scientist" or "Temperamental Artist"? It seems that creativity is connected with these less desirable traits.

I also believe it is one of the reasons religions evolved. We were able to conceive the abstract and find a way to represent that to the point that it became a part of our modern human psyche.
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Old 7th September 2016, 11:54 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Seems a fantasy, The Atheist, because the posts "way back in the thread" are about autism being psychiatry's problem,...
Ahem.

As usual, your view of the evidence is more than a little lacking:

Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Autism is NEUROLOGICAL disorder with multiple manifestations and functional differences.
It can NOT be treated by psychiatry.
To be fair, it was hidden away right on the front page.
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Old 8th September 2016, 08:50 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
You can blame hybridization with Neanderthals and Denisovans for some of these genetic predispositions. We inherited and kept several genetic mutations from these lines that eventually evolved into modern humans.

The mutations that cause these conditions were turned off in Neanderthal and Denisovans but modern humans got the "turned on" version right around 80-60,000 years ago, about the time we started painting on the walls of caves.

The very thing that makes us the creative and successful modern humans that we are today are the very things that create these genetic predispositions for certain types of mental illnesses. This is why the traits have not been weeded out through evolutionary inheritance, at least not yet.Who isn't familiar with the stereotypical "Mad Scientist" or "Temperamental Artist"? It seems that creativity is connected with these less desirable traits.

I also believe it is one of the reasons religions evolved. We were able to conceive the abstract and find a way to represent that to the point that it became a part of our modern human psyche.
That makes sense to me. The ability to think abstractly is incredibly fundamental to our success as a species - it's particularly important to scientific advances, as mathematics is entirely abstract. But that ability to abstract requires (imo) an ability to set aside clear-cut reality and specificity... which means that the line between fantasy and reality has to be blurred in a temporary and bounded fashion. Temporary suspension of disbelief and all that .
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Old 8th September 2016, 08:52 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Autism is NEUROLOGICAL disorder with multiple manifestations and functional differences.
It can NOT be treated by psychiatry. Some manifestations can be reduced in a pallative fashion.

Autism is not a mental illness
Bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and a host of others are neurological disorders too, aren't they?

Where does one draw the line between neurological disorders and mental illness? Is there even a line? What leads one to be treated by a neurologist as opposed to a psychiatrist?
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Old 8th September 2016, 09:14 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Seems a fantasy, The Atheist, because the posts "way back in the thread" are about autism being psychiatry's problem, e.g. in alleviating the symptoms.
In the real world, autism is thought to have multiple causes and thus needs treating by multiple medical fields including psychiatry.
I doubt there was much screeching, autism is a neurological event, not a mental illness and as you stated its effects in certain individuals can be reduced by medication.
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Old 8th September 2016, 01:55 PM   #307
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
As usual, your view of the evidence is more than a little lacking:
I wrote:
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Seems a fantasy, The Atheist, because the posts "way back in the thread" are about autism being psychiatry's problem, e.g. in alleviating the symptoms.
In the real world, autism is thought to have multiple causes and thus needs treating by multiple medical fields including psychiatry.
And you lie by quote mining a post from Dancing David
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Autism is NEUROLOGICAL disorder with multiple manifestations and functional differences.
It can NOT be treated by psychiatry. Some manifestations can be reduced in a pallative fashion.

Autism is not a mental illness
(what you cut emphasized)

The treatment of autism includes psychiatry, e.g. Red Flags: When to take your child with autism to a psychiatrist
Quote:
The treatment of autism is best served using a multidisciplinary approach. The components of the team may consist of learning specialists, developmental pediatricians, child neurologists, speech pathologists, occupational therapists, and child and adolescent psychiatrists. Again, the child and adolescent psychiatrist will diagnose and treat any psychiatric issues that the child with autism exhibits and continue to provide supportive care and medication management.
Talking about a "view of the evidence":
  1. 10 June 2016 The Atheist: Can you understand that this paper ("The Benefits of Exercise for the Clinically Depressed" ) does not state that exercise is better than drugs?
  2. 30 August 2016 The Atheist: "Effects of Exercise Training on Older Patients With Major Depression" = equally effective.
  3. 30 August 2016 The Atheist:"Is Exercise a Viable Treatment for Depression?" = to a comparable extent.
  4. 30 August 2016 The Atheist: "The Benefits of Exercise for the Clinically Depressed" = potentially powerful adjunct to existing treatments (as pointed out a couple of months ago!).
  5. 30 August 2016 The Atheist: "Exercise Treatment for Major Depression: Maintenance of Therapeutic Benefit at 10 Months" ( a 16 year old paper) = comparable across the three treatment conditions at 4 months, possible smaller relapse rate for those in the exercise group at 10 months
  6. 1 September 2016 The Atheist: Your assertion is about depression in general - not low, moderate or severe depression.
  7. 1 September 2016 The Atheist: "Exercise and Depression" destroys your assertion.
  8. 1 September 2016 The Atheist: Advice to take exercise + eat well + sleep well to make a difference to mental health is not stating that exercise is better than drugs!

Last edited by Reality Check; 8th September 2016 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 8th September 2016, 05:45 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and a host of others are neurological disorders too, aren't they?

Where does one draw the line between neurological disorders and mental illness? Is there even a line? What leads one to be treated by a neurologist as opposed to a psychiatrist?

Since there isn't any one mutation that dictates the potential for developing these types of mental illnesses it may remain a psychiatric problem where medication treats the symptoms. Much more research would need to be done because the same loci of genes is responsible for other neurological assets that make us "normal" , assuming there is such a thing, or at least what an average modern human is today.
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Last edited by Jodie; 8th September 2016 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 8th September 2016, 11:58 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
And you lie by quote mining a post from Dancing David


The post is as unequivocal as it could be. I repeat:

Quote:
Autism is NEUROLOGICAL disorder with multiple manifestations and functional differences.
It can NOT be treated by psychiatry.
What else it says is irrelevant.

Your posts now hold the record for being the mot egregiously dishonest ever made on the forum: congratulations.
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Old 9th September 2016, 09:37 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Since there isn't any one mutation that dictates the potential for developing these types of mental illnesses it may remain a psychiatric problem where medication treats the symptoms. Much more research would need to be done because the same loci of genes is responsible for other neurological assets that make us "normal" , assuming there is such a thing, or at least what an average modern human is today.
I think I need a more basic question to alleviate my ignorance. What's the difference (in layman's terms) between a neurological disorder and a mental disorder? I'm not implying that they're the same - I just don't know what the distinction is.
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Old 9th September 2016, 11:10 AM   #311
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Hi,
That is a tough one Emily!

In general mental disorders are considered to be the product of trauma, transient events and mental illness.
Neurological disorders are usually considered to be separate categories i.e epilepsy, autism, parkinson's and things like neuropathy

Now there are assumptions of possible causality in the way these are classified going back in history. A mental disorder can be induced or behavioral and they have multiple possible causation. Neurological disorders are considered to be generally traumatic or developmental or a dysfunction in nerve system functioning.

Autism was originally classed with what we now call developmental disorders and was considered a number of things retardation, mutism and sometimes just severe retardation.

I think there is a historical division that comes about from the medical profession and how the treatments evolved.

But there is considerable overlap, especially in the treatment of neuropathy, where antidepressants and seizure/mood stabilizers are effective. Or in the treatment of some bipolar disorders (mental disorder/illness) where again anti seizure medicines seem to have good effect.


"A mental disorder (also called a mental illness,[1] or psychiatric disorder) is a diagnosis, most often by a psychiatrist, of a behavioral or mental pattern that may cause suffering or a poor ability to function in life. Such features may be persistent, relapsing and remitting, or occur as a single episode. Many disorders have been described, with signs and symptoms that vary widely between specific disorders.[2][3]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder

"A neurological disorder is any disorder of the body nervous system. Structural, biochemical or electrical abnormalities in the brain, spinal cord or other nerves can result in a range of symptoms. Examples of symptoms include paralysis, muscle weakness, poor coordination, loss of sensation, seizures, confusion, pain and altered levels of consciousness. There are many recognized neurological disorders, some relatively common, but many rare. They may be assessed by neurological examination, and studied and treated within the specialities of neurology and clinical neuropsychology."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurological_disorder
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Old 9th September 2016, 11:26 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I think I need a more basic question to alleviate my ignorance. What's the difference (in layman's terms) between a neurological disorder and a mental disorder? I'm not implying that they're the same - I just don't know what the distinction is.
I don't think there's a concrete (scientific) distinction, which is one reason that the DSMV changed to using gradients of impact rather than discrete categories within axes.

The conventional categories are: psychiatric, neurodevelopmental, medical, neurological, and there are others.

The problem is that most behavioral issues are a mix. People focus on a category they think works out, sometimes for personal reasons. eg: to avoid stigma.
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Old 9th September 2016, 12:32 PM   #313
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Thank you both
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Old 11th September 2016, 01:47 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I repeat:
I repeat - The post by Dancing David is in full without a lie by quote mining
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Autism is NEUROLOGICAL disorder with multiple manifestations and functional differences.
It can NOT be treated by psychiatry. Some manifestations can be reduced in a pallative fashion.

Autism is not a mental illness
My reply was about the treatment which can include psychiatrists. P.S. I agree with the fact that autism is not a mental disorder - it is a neurodevelopmental disorder with psychiatric symptoms that can be treated by psychiatrists. However autism is in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition published by the American Psychiatric Association.
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Seems a fantasy, The Atheist, because the posts "way back in the thread" are about autism being psychiatry's problem, e.g. in alleviating the symptoms.
In the real world, autism is thought to have multiple causes and thus needs treating by multiple medical fields including psychiatry.
I then pointed out that in the real world the treatment of autism includes child and adolescent psychiatrists, e.g. Red Flags: When to take your child with autism to a psychiatrist
Autism is the problem of
  • learning specialists,
  • developmental pediatricians,
  • child neurologists,
  • speech pathologists,
  • occupational therapists, and
  • child and adolescent psychiatrists
  1. 10 June 2016 The Atheist: Can you understand that this paper ("The Benefits of Exercise for the Clinically Depressed" ) does not state that exercise is better than drugs?
  2. 30 August 2016 The Atheist: "Effects of Exercise Training on Older Patients With Major Depression" = equally effective.
  3. 30 August 2016 The Atheist:"Is Exercise a Viable Treatment for Depression?" = to a comparable extent.
  4. 30 August 2016 The Atheist: "The Benefits of Exercise for the Clinically Depressed" = potentially powerful adjunct to existing treatments (as pointed out a couple of months ago!).
  5. 30 August 2016 The Atheist: "Exercise Treatment for Major Depression: Maintenance of Therapeutic Benefit at 10 Months" ( a 16 year old paper) = comparable across the three treatment conditions at 4 months, possible smaller relapse rate for those in the exercise group at 10 months
  6. 1 September 2016 The Atheist: Your assertion is about depression in general - not low, moderate or severe depression.
  7. 1 September 2016 The Atheist: "Exercise and Depression" destroys your assertion.
  8. 1 September 2016 The Atheist: Advice to take exercise + eat well + sleep well to make a difference to mental health is not stating that exercise is better than drugs!
  9. 9 September 2016 The Atheist: A lie by quote mining Dancing David to remove what I replied to!

Last edited by Reality Check; 11th September 2016 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 11th September 2016, 01:51 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
I repeat - The post by Dancing David is in full without a lie by quote mining
Sorry, but even your shill-like posts can't escape the facts, but it is interesting how much time you spend on such a minor issue.

It's plain to me that either money or self-interest is driving your obscurantist posts. Fortunately, thanks to the awful formatting I can't imagine anyone ever reading them. There's more red herring posted by you in this thread than a fleet of Icelandic fishing boats could handle.
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Old 11th September 2016, 06:24 PM   #316
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Thumbs down The Atheist: A "either money or self-interest" fantasy does not excuse quote mining

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Sorry, but even your shill-like posts can't escape the facts,
The facts are your failed attempts to mislead people about science:
  1. 10 June 2016 The Atheist: Can you understand that this paper ("The Benefits of Exercise for the Clinically Depressed" ) does not state that exercise is better than drugs?
  2. 30 August 2016 The Atheist: "Effects of Exercise Training on Older Patients With Major Depression" = equally effective.
  3. 30 August 2016 The Atheist:"Is Exercise a Viable Treatment for Depression?" = to a comparable extent.
  4. 30 August 2016 The Atheist: "The Benefits of Exercise for the Clinically Depressed" = potentially powerful adjunct to existing treatments (as pointed out a couple of months ago!).
  5. 30 August 2016 The Atheist: "Exercise Treatment for Major Depression: Maintenance of Therapeutic Benefit at 10 Months" ( a 16 year old paper) = comparable across the three treatment conditions at 4 months, possible smaller relapse rate for those in the exercise group at 10 months
  6. 1 September 2016 The Atheist: Your assertion is about depression in general - not low, moderate or severe depression.
  7. 1 September 2016 The Atheist: "Exercise and Depression" destroys your assertion.
  8. 1 September 2016 The Atheist: Advice to take exercise + eat well + sleep well to make a difference to mental health is not stating that exercise is better than drugs!
  9. 9 September 2016 The Atheist: A lie by quote mining Dancing David to remove what I replied to !
12 September 2016 The Atheist: A "either money or self-interest" fantasy (Shill gambit?) does not excuse quote mining.
I have no connection with psychiatry. I was a solid state physicist. I now work in IT. My scientific background is what makes it easier for me to detect attempts to mislead people because I read sources.

Last edited by Reality Check; 11th September 2016 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 11th September 2016, 06:43 PM   #317
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while some of the benefits of the use of pharma products for people suffering for "mental illness", there are many psychiatrists and intellectuals who are not convinced that "mental illness" is an illness with an organic basis, say, same as pneumonia or cancer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj7GmeSAxXo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind
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Old 11th September 2016, 06:56 PM   #318
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
while some of the benefits of the use of pharma products for people suffering for "mental illness", there are many psychiatrists and intellectuals who are not convinced that "mental illness" is an illness with an organic basis, say, same as pneumonia or cancer
Argument by YouTube video is not advised in a science thread, SashatheMagnificent, because they are not scientific literature.

What you have is a personal opinion of a Dr Thomas Szasz (based on his personal meaning of the word "disease") and an unhelpful Wikipedia link.

Mental illness is not considered an "illness with an organic basis, say, same as pneumonia or cancer". Causes of mental disorders explains this more fully. I suspect that some psychiatrists and intellectuals do not think that mental disorders are mostly a result of biological dysfunction. However there are some that are definitely a result of biological dysfunction, e.g. Alzheimer's disease. A generalization or expectation would be that all mental disorders are biological in origin. But mental function is also influenced by experience and learning.

Last edited by Reality Check; 11th September 2016 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 12th September 2016, 11:26 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
I have no connection with psychiatry.
Anonymous claims are easy to make.

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More hilarious fail: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-s...nt-study-finds
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Old 12th September 2016, 11:49 AM   #320
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Let's play "Bait the Shill"!

1 Pick notoriously anti-psychiatry organisations... No, not Scientology, organisations like The Guardian, Bloomberg, Nature, New Scientist and the Florida Citizens Commission on Human Rights.

Richard Friedman:

Quote:
Despite a vast investment in basic neuroscience research and its rich intellectual promise, we have little to show for it on the treatment front.
Nature:

Quote:
The DSM dresses up symptoms as diseases that are not real and then claims to have named and described the true varieties of our suffering.
Bloomberg:

Quote:
The profession of psychiatry didn’t have a place for a patient like Derek Ward in the months before he brutally murdered his mother and then killed himself.

...dozens of doctors said they either didn’t take his insurance or wouldn’t see patients with Derek’s complex condition.
One of the most damning things I've ever read. Wouldn't even see him...

Hard luck, mum & dad!

Guardian:

Quote:
I am sick of seeing friends who are seriously mentally distressed neglected and damaged by mainstream psychiatry. I am fed up hearing about people being detained, locked up and forced to take damaging medication before anyone has found out why they are distressed.
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