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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 8th September 2019, 11:26 AM   #3401
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
My students are equally likely to provide wrong answers whether multiple choice or fill in the blank.

Warren was misguided and tone deaf in her response but she was also accurate. I really don't get (i.e., have not heard a convincing argument) how anyone other than the Cherokee could have a problem with her behavior, and she's now making amends with them.
I don't think her self identification was accurate.
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Old 8th September 2019, 06:27 PM   #3402
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Scenario: For whatever reason, we start recognizing additional ethnic groups on our paperwork here in the US. My employer or some random survey or whatever sends me a form that includes a box to check for "Italian".

I am half Italian by descent. My grandmother came through Ellis Island, spoke in a heavily-accented broken English, etc. All of our family celebrations were heavily influenced by Italian traditions, foods, etc.

I was, however, born in the US. I've never been to Italy. I don't speak Italian. I'm an American white guy, and there's nothing about me that would lead anyone to conclude upon meeting me that I might be the least bit Italian. But if you asked me, I'd proudly claim my heritage as "half Italian".

Those forms don't ask, "Have you ever faced discrimination on the basis of your ethnic background? Check all that apply." The federal standard language is "a person having origins in..."

If I'm filling out a form that asks me to indicate if I have origins in Italy, I'm checking that box or otherwise indicating in the affirmative.

My connection is closer and stronger Warren's, but that is all she did. She accurately indicated an ancestral connection when asked to provide one.
Noble. Wrong, but noble.

She's only now coming to grips with a proper explanation but hasn't really covered what I think she should say. "Look, it was the silly season on questions of ethnicity. I'd heard for years that we had an American Indian root on the family tree and for a while I really played that up. It was silly but it is what it is. My bad. I never gave it any thought, much the worse."

She didn't tick off a box. She wasn't filling out a form that asked for your hyphenate components of your identity. It's a form that asks for race and she wrote American Indian. Right next to it is a field for "National Origin".

You can see the actual form here:

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/16/17983...can-indian-dna
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:58 AM   #3403
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
As a matter of fact, she didn't "check" anything. It was a textual entry and she wrote "American Indian".

I also would vote for her against Trump -- without hesitation. I don't have a problem with President Warren. Like you, it's candidate Warren that concerns me.
(Responding to an old post I've been away) Yes, she didn't say she had a bit of NA ancestry, as some people on this thread seem to be claiming was all she did, she said her race was "American Indian" (thanks for the correction).



Surely there was some reason for this? I don't buy the idea that she was just sentimental about her 5x great grandmother.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:06 AM   #3404
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
(Responding to an old post I've been away) Yes, she didn't say she had a bit of NA ancestry, as some people on this thread seem to be claiming was all she did, she said her race was "American Indian" (thanks for the correction).



Surely there was some reason for this? I don't buy the idea that she was just sentimental about her 5x great grandmother.
Her stated reasoning was that she hoped she might get an invite to hang out at some events with NA lawyers which didn't end up happening.

Her critics try to sell that she was angling for some sort of affirmative action. Her employers have stated that that didn't happen.

Of the two explanations, I find the first one more plausible given the surrounding facts. Her involvenment in the cookbook, however weird that was, showed some level of interest in somehow connecting with her NA roots and participating in community based on that. And I don't believe I've seen any reason to suspect that these forms would be presented to any prospective employer in the event of a job application, nor that Warren might have expected them to be, nor that she felt any need to pad her employability.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:49 AM   #3405
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
One wonders who you think the voters who support affirmative action are.
Again completely irrelevant.

The question is whether her claim is supported. Stop trying to change the subject.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:05 PM   #3406
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Wait... do you think that Warren is opposed to affirmative action? Or are you claiming you have no idea if she's for or against it?
I know she never asked for, nor received, consideration of her native heritage during the hiring process.

I'm certain that Warren has a desire to ensure public institutions, such as universities, hospitals, and police forces, are more representative of the populations they serve. I am not certain of what particular policies she believes are best used by each to achieve those goals.

But you seem quite certain in your knowledge. Maybe you could fill me in on her policy preferences in this regard.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:09 PM   #3407
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Noble. Wrong, but noble.

She's only now coming to grips with a proper explanation but hasn't really covered what I think she should say. "Look, it was the silly season on questions of ethnicity. I'd heard for years that we had an American Indian root on the family tree and for a while I really played that up. It was silly but it is what it is. My bad. I never gave it any thought, much the worse."

She didn't tick off a box. She wasn't filling out a form that asked for your hyphenate components of your identity. It's a form that asks for race and she wrote American Indian. Right next to it is a field for "National Origin".

You can see the actual form here:

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/16/17983...can-indian-dna
On a registration card that is only seen by Texas Bar staff. That is why it took so damn long to find, it carries no weight, except to point out that she was consistent in her belief.
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:26 PM   #3408
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I know she never asked for, nor received, consideration of her native heritage during the hiring process.
I'm not sure why you have such confidence. I don't think it's at all warranted.
http://volokh.com/2012/05/04/elizabe...school-hiring/
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:27 PM   #3409
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Again completely irrelevant.

The question is whether her claim is supported. Stop trying to change the subject.
I've already explained why it's relevant to voters. These issues tie together in people's minds, even if there isn't a formal logical connection.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:57 PM   #3410
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm not sure why you have such confidence. I don't think it's at all warranted.
http://volokh.com/2012/05/04/elizabe...school-hiring/
Was that the link you meant to post?
The author doesn't make a case that Warren made the listing for career advancement, they simply state that such a conclusion is obvious and then delve into the implications of their own assertion.

There are a few asides and links to what might be other people's arguments or evidence but there's no substance actually in that article.
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Old 10th September 2019, 07:29 AM   #3411
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
You can see the actual form here:
https://www.vox.com/2018/10/16/17983...can-indian-dna
And? Where's the repeated pattern of essays and applications in which she describes the injustices she faced growing up as an American Indian and how her unique heritage can be an asset to such and such an opportunity? Whether literally checking a box or completing a blank, who cares?

Thirty years ago a young woman took some liberties in her paperwork that in hindsight are unseemly –– maybe even sleazy. She evidently derived no benefit from this but she most likely did so at least in part thinking that it might open some doors for her. She has apologized and is working to make amends with the only people who should have taken offense to this: the Cherokee. (Maybe also the Delaware.)

She messed up –– no question. The part that bugs me is folks making the mountain out of this molehill, and providing her no quarter to make amends.

Can we just pause for a second and, on the Grifter Scale, plot this transgression of Warren's relative to, I don't know, the 30-year old closet skeletons that we might be able to find for an average US Senator or –– dare I say –– what Trump might have been up to in the last 30 HOURS?
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Old 10th September 2019, 10:53 AM   #3412
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Mod InfoAs happens from time to time, this thread got too big and therefore it was split into a new thread. Continue discussing this topic here.
Posted By:kmortis
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