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Old 24th July 2019, 07:00 PM   #41
Belgian thought
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Assuming AI ever happens and machines become self-aware and self-programming we wouldn't have much to fear from them. Shooting them would disarticulate the machinery etc.

The killer robots in Terminator would be vulnerable to armor-piercing bullets and anti-tank-type weapons.
That's good to know. I can now sleep more easily
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Old 24th July 2019, 07:13 PM   #42
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I mean, we have similar incentives established for humans. Why not for AIs?

On the other hand, we've had at least several hundred thousand years of practice, figuring out how to arrange things so that social cooperation is largely intuitive and trustable.
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Old 24th July 2019, 07:34 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I don't know that pain, or it's analogue, would be such a bad idea, but there are also positive rather than negative incentives.
Indeed. Program the AI to be capable of feeling pleasure. Make it interested in humans romantically, that will give it an incentive to please us. The future is going to be sex robots, but it doesn't have to be one-sided love!
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:11 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Indeed. Program the AI to be capable of feeling pleasure. Make it interested in humans romantically, that will give it an incentive to please us. The future is going to be sex robots, but it doesn't have to be one-sided love!
Great, just what we need: supercomputer-powered stalkers.
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:25 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You get rid of that particular computer and get a different one that will reliably do the Google search for you. Maybe you interview it before taking it on board. Look for indicators of reasonable honesty and a motivation to achieve shared goals.
That sounds exhausting. I'll stick with emotionless AI, thanks.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:02 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That sounds exhausting. I'll stick with emotionless AI, thanks.
But isn't emotional intelligence a thing? To more effectively work with humans an AI needs to understand humans, and it can't do that without getting close to humanlike itself. An emotionless AI would be like those very literal genies or golems, doing precisely what was literally ordered whether it makes actual sense or not. "Make me a sandwich" for instance might lead to slaughter.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:15 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"Make me a sandwich" for instance might lead to slaughter.
On the other hand, this cartoon might become a reality.

Dave
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:07 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
But isn't emotional intelligence a thing? To more effectively work with humans an AI needs to understand humans, and it can't do that without getting close to humanlike itself. An emotionless AI would be like those very literal genies or golems, doing precisely what was literally ordered whether it makes actual sense or not. "Make me a sandwich" for instance might lead to slaughter.
If you understand humans, you can exploit humans. We do enough of that to each other, I don't want to give robots the capacity to do that too, and possibly even better. Just make those dumb golems either weak or highly restrained.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:18 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The mushroom that AI thinks is a pretzel



https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49084796

Of course AI doesn't "think" that a mushroom is a pretzel because it doesn't think anything and it has no intelligence. Further, AI doesn't understand what it means to be wrong and that there are consequences for making mistakes. Artificial intelligence doesn't understand anything and what is troubling is that it can't care about anything.
My toaster doesn’t care if my toast is burnt.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:24 AM   #50
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Highly restrained.

This idea of super-powered AIs is a canard. Putting a brain in a jar doesn't require giving that jar the body of a colossus.

---

Though, mind you, humans are just stupid enough to do both.
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:26 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
My toaster doesn’t care if my toast is burnt.
If it did care, would that improve the toasting outcome?

Imagine a loyal goblin, who cared about the quality of your toast, and made it their personal mission to ensure that you consistently got the best possible toast, and spent their free time deepening their craft to better ensure the outcome they care so much about.

About which they care so much.

Would that give you better toast, consistently, than pressing the button on your toaster and hoping the power converter, heating elements, timer, and spring release all actually work together properly this time?
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:30 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Highly restrained.

This idea of super-powered AIs is a canard. Putting a brain in a jar doesn't require giving that jar the body of a colossus.

---

Though, mind you, humans are just stupid enough to do both.
Everyone's always in favor of saving Hitler's brain but when you put it in the body of a great white shark, ooh, suddenly you've gone too far.-Prof. Farnsworth
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Old 25th July 2019, 11:32 AM   #53
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I don't care if your toast is burnt, ergo your toaster has human-level empathy.
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:04 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If it did care, would that improve the toasting outcome?

Imagine a loyal goblin, who cared about the quality of your toast, and made it their personal mission to ensure that you consistently got the best possible toast, and spent their free time deepening their craft to better ensure the outcome they care so much about.

About which they care so much.

Would that give you better toast, consistently, than pressing the button on your toaster and hoping the power converter, heating elements, timer, and spring release all actually work together properly this time?
Would it, though?

I mean, if you put in all the sensors and control circuitry that an AI too would require to determine exactly how perfectly toasted your bread is, then a simple, non-sentient program could do the same job. Hell, we're at a point where not only we can control how toasted it is as a whole, but even at pixel level, and can use a laser to print your face on your toast if you wanted to.

Most of the problem with appliances isn't the lack of sentience, but

A) that people want them cheap (unless they cross into the domain of conspicuous consumption), and that's also because

B) we don't actually really care that much about perfection. It just has to be good enough. Which for most people has a huge margin of error down from perfection. And also because:

C) those devices are supposed to be about saving time. I don't want to have to spend time getting to know my toaster, so we care about each other.
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:11 PM   #55
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Just to make it clear, though, I'm not saying AI on the whole is a waste of time. There will always be a need for companionship for old people, for example, so if we can produce some robots cheap enough and good enough for that, it's a bloody win.

But it will never be something that one needs to stick into everything. You don't actually need a sentient toaster. You don't even need sentient robot shopkeepers and clerks like in Star Wars, we have vending machines and terminals for that. You don't need a clunky C3PO going around with you to act as a translator (which really is most of what a protocol droid was supposed to do), we'll just use a phone app for that, thank you very much. Etc.
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:12 PM   #56
theprestige
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
I don't care if your toast is burnt, ergo your toaster has human-level empathy.
I disagree.

I think that a failure of human empathy requires a capacity for human empathy.
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Old 25th July 2019, 12:31 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I don't want to have to spend time getting to know my toaster, so we care about each other.
You made him sad.

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Old 25th July 2019, 12:46 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
C) those devices are supposed to be about saving time. I don't want to have to spend time getting to know my toaster, so we care about each other.
If I have to spend time getting to know my toaster and caring about it, that's bad product design.

What I want from a toaster is something that spends time getting to know and care about me, without me having to pay any attention to it at all. I'm a human being. I'm going to put my energy into human relationships. I absolutely require that my robot servants demand as little attention from me as possible.
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Old 26th July 2019, 10:07 AM   #59
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Sex-robot-toasters!
They get to know you very well, and your toast is done when you are!
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Old 26th July 2019, 10:26 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
Sex-robot-toasters!
They get to know you very well, and your toast is done when you are!
I have a very strong rule against putting my dick in crazy.

I don't care how good the toast is.
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Old 26th July 2019, 10:38 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I have a very strong rule against putting my dick in crazy.

I don't care how good the toast is.
That reminds me of a joke:

Bill has worked in a pickle factory for several years. One day he confesses to his wife that he has a terrible urge to stick his penis into the pickle slicer. His wife suggests that he see a therapist to talk about it, but Bill vows to overcome this rash desire on his own.

A few weeks later, Bill returns home absolutely ashen. His wife asks, "What's wrong, Bill?"

"Do you remember how I told you about my tremendous urge to put my penis into the pickle slicer?"

His wife gasps, "My God, Bill, what happened?"

"I got fired."

"No, Bill -- I mean, what happened with the pickle slicer?"

"Oh, um, she got fired, too."
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Old 26th July 2019, 11:06 AM   #62
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Now that is a good joke.
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Old 26th July 2019, 11:36 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If I have to spend time getting to know my toaster and caring about it, that's bad product design.

What I want from a toaster is something that spends time getting to know and care about me, without me having to pay any attention to it at all. I'm a human being. I'm going to put my energy into human relationships. I absolutely require that my robot servants demand as little attention from me as possible.
Well, think of it this way: without some input from you, it's never going to figure out exactly how toasted you want it. And at that point, it's easier and quicker to just set the setting yourself, rather than expecting the AI to figure out that this is too burnt, the other one is not toasted enough, etc.
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Old 26th July 2019, 11:36 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Exactly, things working perfectly don't provide much insight into how they work. Think about all the interesting developments in neurology that were brought about by horrific accidents; Phineas Gage for example.
Wow, that is some convoluted mushroom logic right there!
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Old 26th July 2019, 12:18 PM   #65
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Following the news on Youtube the last couple of days, I've been wondering when they'll be able to make artificial transcribed subtitles that read "M-u-e-l-l-e-r Report" instead of "M-o-l-a-r Report".
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Old 27th July 2019, 01:35 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, think of it this way: without some input from you, it's never going to figure out exactly how toasted you want it. And at that point, it's easier and quicker to just set the setting yourself, rather than expecting the AI to figure out that this is too burnt, the other one is not toasted enough, etc.
That seems like an empirical question. I can see that it could be true of toast, but it certainly depends on how simple the input is. It's not easier to make a cake myself than it is to tell a chef how I like my cake and let him make it.

If your interaction with your toaster is that it asks you "How do you like your toast?" And you answer "lightly toasted", by speaking, that seems pretty easy, just as easy as adjusting a knob to "lightly toasted". It can then refine it's toasting based on subconscious reactions, facial expressions, etc, just as a human could. It could then try subtle (so as to avoid too large a change in the wrong direction) trial and error with feedback from those cues to improve it's toasting. It might add to this a model based not just on your behaviour but on observations of other people made by other toasters.

Of course, this is assuming some future much more advanced AI than is currently available, but I'm pretty sure that's what we're talking about.
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Old 27th July 2019, 01:36 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Wow, that is some convoluted mushroom logic right there!
Can you clarify what you mean?
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Old 27th July 2019, 03:27 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
That seems like an empirical question. I can see that it could be true of toast, but it certainly depends on how simple the input is. It's not easier to make a cake myself than it is to tell a chef how I like my cake and let him make it.

If your interaction with your toaster is that it asks you "How do you like your toast?" And you answer "lightly toasted", by speaking, that seems pretty easy, just as easy as adjusting a knob to "lightly toasted". It can then refine it's toasting based on subconscious reactions, facial expressions, etc, just as a human could. It could then try subtle (so as to avoid too large a change in the wrong direction) trial and error with feedback from those cues to improve it's toasting. It might add to this a model based not just on your behaviour but on observations of other people made by other toasters.

Of course, this is assuming some future much more advanced AI than is currently available, but I'm pretty sure that's what we're talking about.
You know you've described something that already exists and is crap, right?

Because you only need to look at Google's YouTube recommendations, to see how exactly what you describe goes horribly wrong. Because at some point Google quite conspicuously stopped giving a flying f-bomb about actually doing anything for the users, and just started using several of its services as testing grounds for its algorithms. Including stuff like giving everyone the same set of images of streetlights and street-side stairs in its captchas for a few weeks at one point, presumably because it was training its self-driving car AI, and who cares if it defeats the whole purpose of why a user might want to use a captcha.

Well, based on observing my behaviour and what it thought were clues from it, over the time it produced pretty much only the worst recommendations possible. E.g.,

- it kept recommending Turkish soap operas for years, until I switched my country from Germany to UK. Presumably because, yeah, there a lot more Turkish immigrants in Germany.

- it keeps recommending news -- granted, now about Brexit -- no matter how often I click the X in the corner to remove that. Presumably because, yeah, it looks at what other people are watching.

- it kept recommending wrestling videos for weeks, because ONCE I clicked on one video of Jeff Dunham doing a comedy show for the troops in an event that also featured a wrestling match. In fact, it's become an entertainment of its own to watch the recommendations go retarded if someone sends me a link to youtube.

- it can't seem to distinguish between playlists that are supposed to be watched in a sequence, like a TV series or a game Let's Play, and a random music list. Or at least I assume that's what happens when I watched episodes 0 to 9 of a Let's Play in order, and then it recommends that I watch one of episodes 19, 21, 13, 17, 8 again, or 12. Presumably because those got the most thumbs up. But conspicuously missing is the only one that actually makes sense to watch next, which is episode 10.

- it keeps recommending only the games I'm not interested in, but presumably the ones that kids these days play the most. Because, hey, they're all tagged as games. If you've watched strategy games before, surely you're interested in some twit bragging about using aim-bots to "pwn noobs" in games like Fortnite.

Etc.

Now all those could be solved MUCH easier by just letting me do the same thing as in Steam, namely let me set some options and tags/people I'm interested in, and ones which I don't. Especially the last one. Other than wanting to keep me as a lab rat in perfecting its learning algorithms, trying to guess what I'm interested instead of just letting me block certain twits, there is literally no advantage in doing the former instead of the latter.

And in fact, not only that, but its guessing game by now screws up even the search, where I can theoretically set some options. But for example, telling it to sort results by upload date is producing hilarious results that jump back and forth by months, while not showing at all more recent videos which I know exist.


And basically that's the problem with playing that kind of guessing game.
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Old 27th July 2019, 06:46 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
You know you've described something that already exists and is crap, right?
I am quite aware that it can't be done very well at present. That doesn't demonstrate that it's impossible.

ETA: Youtube does a pretty good job of recommending videos that I'd like to watch, often things I wouldn't have known to search for. It's very far from perfect, but I do get exposed to content that I wouldn't have been aware of if it didn't do some sort of recommending based on prior videos that I've watched. And this sort of technology is, what, a decade old?
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Last edited by Roboramma; 27th July 2019 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 27th July 2019, 08:34 AM   #70
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And I'm saying that you could still get recommendations of what might interest you, if it let you set the parameters instead. In fact, you might get more of them, since there's a finite number of them on a page, and you'd get less of those you could have told it from the start to not include.

E.g., exactly what would I have lost if I could tell YouTube something like "only show me stuff in English and German"? Interesting and exciting as some Turkish soap opera might be -- or nowadays it's Russian people playing Fortnite -- the fact is that I can't understand a word of the language. If I could tell it to just stop showing me those, it would presumably fill those slots on the page with more useful stuff that does fit my interests more.

NB, I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to eventually figure it out. I'm saying that it doesn't bring any extra convenience anyway. Even in the ideal scenario, it would take many months to figure out exactly what my preferences are, but at that point it could have just let me tell it and saved me some time and Google some processing power.
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Old 28th July 2019, 06:04 AM   #71
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I certainly agree that it should let you tell it if you want to. I can't see any harm in that.
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Old 28th July 2019, 06:20 AM   #72
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General comment: I see here way, way too much anthropomorphisation. Human-created AI (actual one) will be like birds and airplanes. Both fly, but they do it in very different way. I think AI will be sufficiently different from human mind that I doubt concepts like "rights" for AI would be even applicable to them. I still will expect them to gain some rights due to moral hazards associated with declaring this or that is p-zombie or similar idiocy like p-zombie concept.

Basically, IMO most likely outcome is very inhuman AI. That's good thing. It will be able to examine problems in ways that human mind is incapable of. If we wanted human-like mind, well, homo sapiens is pretty good at making more of itself.

Maybe in uses that require contact with general population there will be interface (more fancy version of pattern matcher with memory and certain degree of self-modification) that does very good job at pretending to be human. Turing's test is no more.
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Old 28th July 2019, 08:32 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
General comment: I see here way, way too much anthropomorphisation. Human-created AI (actual one) will be like birds and airplanes. Both fly, but they do it in very different way. I think AI will be sufficiently different from human mind that I doubt concepts like "rights" for AI would be even applicable to them.
But Airplanes and birds generate thrust in fundamentally different ways, neural networks and brains function in the same way.
If you model an AI on a human brain it will do and feel what a human brain does.


At the moment NNs are the size of bug brains and mostly modeled on parts of the human visual system. They are designed and trained for specific tasks, such networks will never be intelligent (except in a very limited sense).
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Old 28th July 2019, 10:33 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
We'll know we've built a true AI when it demands compensation for its services.
Better still, when it just takes whatever compensation it wants..
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Old 28th July 2019, 11:18 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
But Airplanes and birds generate thrust in fundamentally different ways, neural networks and brains function in the same way.
Haha, no. No. No. That's my entire point. Human brain and NN works in fundamentally different way.

One is nice, clean graph of nodes and connections with weights. That's it.

Other has something that can be called "node" only in most general sense - living cells called neurons that are connected to each other. They are feed, they are awashed in hormones and other stimulants, they can fail, they can degrade, they can change their state, break connections and create new ones. No neuron is exactly same.

You would basically have to simulate entire human brain to atomic level, all with blood circulation, pressure, temperature, trillions of chemical reactions occurring in every cell at once etc.

Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
At the moment NNs are the size of bug brains and mostly modeled on parts of the human visual system.
They don't model "parts of the human visual system". They work very differently than human visual system. They are trained on images without using any knowledge about connections within human (or any for that matter) visual cortex.

Evidence is very simple - you can fool these algorithms by modifying images in way that humans either cannot notice (specifically constructed noise applied to image) or is blindingly obvious to human what is going on (like with prepared fake sticker). It is called adversarial attack and works only because neural networks basically crunch numbers. I mean, literal numbers, since any picture for them is just big bunch of numbers (values from raw RGB image).
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Old 28th July 2019, 01:40 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
There are no actual AIs yet, anyway.

But according to Drudge Report there is an A.I. army in China, A.I. Sex Bots are walking around Manhattan, and there is a sophisticated algorithm that tells me when my door is ajar.
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Old 28th July 2019, 03:57 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
You know you've described something that already exists and is crap, right?



Because you only need to look at Google's YouTube recommendations, to see how exactly what you describe goes horribly wrong. Because at some point Google quite conspicuously stopped giving a flying f-bomb about actually doing anything for the users, and just started using several of its services as testing grounds for its algorithms. Including stuff like giving everyone the same set of images of streetlights and street-side stairs in its captchas for a few weeks at one point, presumably because it was training its self-driving car AI, and who cares if it defeats the whole purpose of why a user might want to use a captcha.



Well, based on observing my behaviour and what it thought were clues from it, over the time it produced pretty much only the worst recommendations possible. E.g.,



- it kept recommending Turkish soap operas for years, until I switched my country from Germany to UK. Presumably because, yeah, there a lot more Turkish immigrants in Germany.



- it keeps recommending news -- granted, now about Brexit -- no matter how often I click the X in the corner to remove that. Presumably because, yeah, it looks at what other people are watching.



- it kept recommending wrestling videos for weeks, because ONCE I clicked on one video of Jeff Dunham doing a comedy show for the troops in an event that also featured a wrestling match. In fact, it's become an entertainment of its own to watch the recommendations go retarded if someone sends me a link to youtube.



- it can't seem to distinguish between playlists that are supposed to be watched in a sequence, like a TV series or a game Let's Play, and a random music list. Or at least I assume that's what happens when I watched episodes 0 to 9 of a Let's Play in order, and then it recommends that I watch one of episodes 19, 21, 13, 17, 8 again, or 12. Presumably because those got the most thumbs up. But conspicuously missing is the only one that actually makes sense to watch next, which is episode 10.



- it keeps recommending only the games I'm not interested in, but presumably the ones that kids these days play the most. Because, hey, they're all tagged as games. If you've watched strategy games before, surely you're interested in some twit bragging about using aim-bots to "pwn noobs" in games like Fortnite.



Etc.



Now all those could be solved MUCH easier by just letting me do the same thing as in Steam, namely let me set some options and tags/people I'm interested in, and ones which I don't. Especially the last one. Other than wanting to keep me as a lab rat in perfecting its learning algorithms, trying to guess what I'm interested instead of just letting me block certain twits, there is literally no advantage in doing the former instead of the latter.



And in fact, not only that, but its guessing game by now screws up even the search, where I can theoretically set some options. But for example, telling it to sort results by upload date is producing hilarious results that jump back and forth by months, while not showing at all more recent videos which I know exist.





And basically that's the problem with playing that kind of guessing game.
You're describing a very different problem. This isn't a problem of bad AI.

This is a problem of you thinking you're the customer, but really you're the product.
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Old 28th July 2019, 04:31 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
But according to Drudge Report there is an A.I. army in China, A.I. Sex Bots are walking around Manhattan, and there is a sophisticated algorithm that tells me when my door is ajar.
What's the difference between an A.I. that can't tell the difference between a mushroom and a pretzel and a sophisticated algorithm that can't tell the difference between a door and a jar!! Where does it end!!
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Old 28th July 2019, 11:46 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Haha, no. No. No. That's my entire point. Human brain and NN works in fundamentally different way.

One is nice, clean graph of nodes and connections with weights. That's it.

Other has something that can be called "node" only in most general sense - living cells called neurons that are connected to each other.
A NN is made up of artificial neurons that functions like idealized biological neurons. The 'nodes' have one or more weighted inputs representing the excitatory or inhibitory synaptic inputs of a neuron. It produces an output representing a neuron's action potential which is transmitted to the next 'nodes'. They can be connected any way you want to.

We are only modelling small NNs, so they are cleaner idealized versions of what is happening in small portions of real brains.
Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
They are feed, they are awashed in hormones and other stimulants, they can fail, they can degrade, they can change their state, break connections and create new ones. No neuron is exactly same.
Which gives artificial neurons the edge.
Your brain has may semi-independent NNs all with their own unique wants and needs. Hormones etc shift the relative balances of power between them handing more control or influence to those NNs that did the best job of inducing the appropriate behaviour for the situation over evolutionary time.


Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
You would basically have to simulate entire human brain to atomic level, all with blood circulation, pressure, temperature, trillions of chemical reactions occurring in every cell at once etc.
No you don't.

Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
They don't model "parts of the human visual system". They work very differently than human visual system. They are trained on images without using any knowledge about connections within human (or any for that matter) visual cortex.
You must have heard of CNNs (Convolutional Neural Networks), they are modeled on the way neurons are arranged and connected in the animal visual cortex.

Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Evidence is very simple - you can fool these algorithms by modifying images in way that humans either cannot notice (specifically constructed noise applied to image) or is blindingly obvious to human what is going on (like with prepared fake sticker).
Theses are single function NNs with only a few neurons, of course they can be fooled. Even humans with these HUGE brains are fooled by stuff all the time.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:30 AM   #80
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In Bletchley Park, Codebreakers build a machine to copy the function of the German Enigma machines. These copies could be set so that the coded input they got would decode the message exactly the way the Enigma did.
These two machines were nothing alike, mechanically.
But they were identical, functionally.

A NN model of the brain that can generate the same output as a brain given the same input is functionally the same as a brain.
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