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Old 21st August 2019, 12:23 PM   #41
theprestige
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
My bad for expecting a legit, adult answer.
It would help if you posed a legit, adult question. Something like, "why don't they bother putting detailed nutrition labels on frozen vegetables?"
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:24 PM   #42
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Raw vegetables (fresh or frozen) are not required by the FDA to have nutritional labelling, probably because there is little difference between sources of the vegetables.

The FDA provides charts that stores selling raw vegetables can display:

https://www.fda.gov/food/food-labeli...ables-and-fish
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Old 21st August 2019, 12:58 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
No, because they have these things called labels on the package that tell you this information. "duh" indeed.



Wow - how sad that I actually needed to explain that.





Just when you gave me hope with that statement.....you added this:





It's all over this thing called "the internet" FYI.



My bad for expecting a legit, adult answer. I forgot how much this place has morphied into KiddieLand. giggle.


Youíre welcome.
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Old 21st August 2019, 03:25 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I actually looked at a label before writing my first reply and realized frozen vegetables don't have the same labeling as other foods. I'm starting to get depressed at the number of times I regret joining a thread intending to help someone.

I suppose that makes sense in a way.

Other foods that are preparations have a number of ingredients in different proportions. The nutritional value would not be obvious so must be spelled out.

You should not need to put nutritional information on the frozen vegetable because it is just vegetable - just happens to be frozen. I mean you don't expect to see a nutritional information sticker on a fresh cabbage do you?

I guess it is assumed the average guy is learned enough to know that freezing does not rob nutritional value from the product.
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Old 21st August 2019, 04:13 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I guess it is assumed the average guy is learned enough to know that freezing does not rob nutritional value from the product.
Oh yeah? Explain why my ice has no nutritional value then, Mr SmartyPants!
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Old 21st August 2019, 04:20 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Oh yeah? Explain why my ice has no nutritional value then, Mr SmartyPants!

Ice actually has negative nutritional value. Do you know how many calories you have to expend to melt it in your mouth?


This might break the thread.
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Old 21st August 2019, 04:51 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by bigred View Post
I forgot how much this place has morphied into KiddieLand.

You started it!!
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Old 21st August 2019, 04:51 PM   #48
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I shop at morrisons. Their frozen carrots

Per 100g, as boiled :

Energy : 118kJ (28kcal)
Fat : 0.4g (of which saturates, 0.1g)
Carbohydrate : 4.4g (of which sugars, 4.2g)
Fibre : 2.3g

Whilst their fresh carrots :

Per 100g :

Energy : 175kJ
Fat : 0.3g (of which saturates 0.1g)
Carbohydrate : 7.9g (of which sugars, 7.4g)
Fibre : 2.4g

A few differences, but the second one doesn't say whether it's 'as sold' or 'as boiled', so is that the difference? In any case it certainly doesn't seem to be the case that the frozen ones have no nutritional value.
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Old 21st August 2019, 06:52 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
A few differences, but the second one doesn't say whether it's 'as sold' or 'as boiled', so is that the difference? In any case it certainly doesn't seem to be the case that the frozen ones have no nutritional value.

You can actually boil some (fresh or frozen) vegetables to death with effectively many of the nutrients leeching out into the water and being tipped out. My personal preference is to steam or stir fry vegetables but if I am in a hurry I will shallow boil them to the instant that the water just starts to bubble, and then serve. (Frozen) peas, beans of all varieties, brocolli, and baby carrots cooked this way retain a crispness and flavour, and probably at least some nutritional value that vanishes if you leave them in water boiling for even two - three minutes.



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Old 21st August 2019, 07:19 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
I shop at morrisons. Their frozen carrots
Ditto with most frozen (all ?) veg in Australian stores - nutrition labels are on the packaging.

Frozen
Per 100g, as boiled :

Energy : 128kJ (31kcal)
Fat : <1.0g (of which saturates, <1.0g)
Carbohydrate : 4.1g (of which sugars, 3.7g)
Fibre : 3.3g

Whilst their fresh carrots (prepackaged) :

Per 100g :

Energy : 138kJ
Fat : 0.1g (of which saturates 0.0g)
Carbohydrate : 5.0g (of which sugars, 5.0g)

(no label : Further nutritional information may be displayed on back of pack.")

Interestingly tinned baby carrots are practically the same - 134kJ.
So it looks like certain veg tinned or frozen are just as good as fresh.

An interesting argument for frozen over fresh is that frozen saves on food waste.
For example, you hardly ever throw out an unfinished bag of frozen veg, whereas fresh food waste numbers are absolutely appalling
According to an Oz food "rescuer";
  • Almost half of all fruit and vegetables produced are wasted (that’s 3.7 trillion apples).
  • 8% of greenhouse gases heating the planet are caused by food waste.[6]
  • If food waste was a country, it would be the third biggest emitter of greenhouse gases after USA and China.
  • Eliminating global food waste would save 4.4 million tonnes of C02 a year, the equivalent of taking one in four cars off the road.
  • Throwing away one burger wastes the same amount of water as a 90-minute shower.
  • Over 5 million tonnes of food ends up as landfill, enough to fill 9,000 Olympic sized swimming pools.
  • One in five shopping bags end up in the bin = $3,800 worth of groceries per household each year.
  • 35% of the average household bin is food waste.
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Last edited by EHocking; 21st August 2019 at 07:24 PM. Reason: quoting
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:32 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
(Frozen) peas, beans of all varieties, brocolli, and baby carrots cooked this way retain a crispness and flavour, and probably at least some nutritional value that vanishes if you leave them in water boiling for even two - three minutes.

If by "vanishes" you mean anywhere near 100%, that is an old wives tale. Nothing close to that percentage of "nutritional value" is "vanishing" in a two to three minute boil.

The most at risk vitamins, ones that are water soluble like C and most of the Bs, will take several minutes to leech into the water but they then level off at around 50% loss.

And here's the kicker, they don't break down ("vanish"), so if you just use the water you will retain the vast majority of the "nutritional value". (A microwave, OTOH, can actually break down many types of nutrients, but still only in certain percentages. It is exceptionally hard for something to actually "vanish" anywhere near 100%.

In fact, some nutrients, like Omega 3s, are preserved by boiling. Those would be lost to a frying pan.
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Old 21st August 2019, 08:42 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
If by "vanishes" you mean anywhere near 100%, that is an old wives tale. Nothing close to that percentage of "nutritional value" is "vanishing" in a two to three minute boil.

The most at risk vitamins, ones that are water soluble like C and most of the Bs, will take several minutes to leech into the water but they then level off at around 50% loss.

And here's the kicker, they don't break down ("vanish"), so if you just use the water you will retain the vast majority of the "nutritional value". (A microwave, OTOH, can actually break down many types of nutrients, but still only in certain percentages. It is exceptionally hard for something to actually "vanish" anywhere near 100%.

In fact, some nutrients, like Omega 3s, are preserved by boiling. Those would be lost to a frying pan.
I realise the qualifications in you statement, but I think the assertion about microwaves breaking down nutrients is, well, inaccurate at best.

Any heating can affect nutrient retention in foods.
Minimising the heating time is key to reducing this affect.
Since microwaving can be faster, minimising heating time, it may in fact be the better method.

WebMD and Harvard Health certainly disagree with you, e.g.,

WebMd
But if youíre concerned about getting the most nutrition out of your eats, microwaving is a safe bet. In fact, it's near the top of the list for nutritionally sound food-preparation methods. If you use your microwave with a small amount of water to essentially steam food from the inside, youíll retain more vitamins and minerals than with almost any other cooking method.
Harvard
Some nutrients break down when they're exposed to heat, whether it is from a microwave or a regular oven. Vitamin C is perhaps the clearest example. But because microwave cooking times are shorter, cooking with a microwave does a better job of preserving vitamin C and other nutrients that break down when heated.

As far as vegetables go, cooking them in water robs them of some of their nutritional value because the nutrients leach out into the cooking water. For example, boiled broccoli loses glucosinolate, the sulfur-containing compound that may give the vegetable its cancer-fighting properties (as well as the taste that many find distinctive and some find disgusting). Is steaming vegetables ó even microwave steaming ó better? In some respects, yes. For example, steamed broccoli holds on to more glucosinolate than boiled or fried broccoli.
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Old 21st August 2019, 09:04 PM   #53
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Never mind.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 03:33 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Ditto with most frozen (all ?) veg in Australian stores - nutrition labels are on the packaging.

Frozen
Per 100g, as boiled :

Energy : 128kJ (31kcal)
Fat : <1.0g (of which saturates, <1.0g)
Carbohydrate : 4.1g (of which sugars, 3.7g)
Fibre : 3.3g

Whilst their fresh carrots (prepackaged) :

Per 100g :

Energy : 138kJ
Fat : 0.1g (of which saturates 0.0g)
Carbohydrate : 5.0g (of which sugars, 5.0g)

(no label : Further nutritional information may be displayed on back of pack.")

Interestingly tinned baby carrots are practically the same - 134kJ.
So it looks like certain veg tinned or frozen are just as good as fresh.

An interesting argument for frozen over fresh is that frozen saves on food waste.
For example, you hardly ever throw out an unfinished bag of frozen veg, whereas fresh food waste numbers are absolutely appalling
According to an Oz food "rescuer";
  • Almost half of all fruit and vegetables produced are wasted (thatís 3.7 trillion apples).
  • 8% of greenhouse gases heating the planet are caused by food waste.[6]
  • If food waste was a country, it would be the third biggest emitter of greenhouse gases after USA and China.
  • Eliminating global food waste would save 4.4 million tonnes of C02 a year, the equivalent of taking one in four cars off the road.
  • Throwing away one burger wastes the same amount of water as a 90-minute shower.
  • Over 5 million tonnes of food ends up as landfill, enough to fill 9,000 Olympic sized swimming pools.
  • One in five shopping bags end up in the bin = $3,800 worth of groceries per household each year.
  • 35% of the average household bin is food waste.
I'd like to see the sodium stats for both of those. Most of the time I avoid tinned (canned) veggies for that medical reason.

I will say I that after all this time I learned something new about the Forum. I never knew about the LIST /LIST (in brackets) feature.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 04:56 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'd like to see the sodium stats for both of those. Most of the time I avoid tinned (canned) veggies for that medical reason.

I will say I that after all this time I learned something new about the Forum. I never knew about the LIST /LIST (in brackets) feature.
It probably depends on the brand, but frozen come in at 86mg and tinned at 207mg from the above.

Draining and rinsing helps reduce sodium content of tinned veg.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 10:31 AM   #56
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Back to frozen: Is there any proof of cells damaged by freezing? Theory is that the water in the cells expands and tears the cell walls. But water only expands umm 4% when it freezes. Cell walls are flexible that much. Plus the water has lots of stuff in it to modify it's behavior. Photo-micro-graphs please?
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:47 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Back to frozen: Is there any proof of cells damaged by freezing? Theory is that the water in the cells expands and tears the cell walls. But water only expands umm 4% when it freezes. Cell walls are flexible that much. Plus the water has lots of stuff in it to modify it's behavior. Photo-micro-graphs please?
I don't know about vegetables but I can always tell when bread has been frozen. My mom prefers to shop infrequently in bulk so freezes most of her bread. It tastes weirdly dead and empty to me.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 11:53 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't know about vegetables but I can always tell when bread has been frozen. My mom prefers to shop infrequently in bulk so freezes most of her bread. It tastes weirdly dead and empty to me.
Yep. It might also answer casebro's point too, but if ice crystals form in the food it can trash the texture at the very least. Texture is pretty important in the bread world.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 12:17 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Yep. It might also answer casebro's point too, but if ice crystals form in the food it can trash the texture at the very least. Texture is pretty important in the bread world.
Chilling starches does cause some change, that is why macaroni salad is different than hot pasta. I suppose bread may be similar?

But yeah, Dad's girlfriend used to freeze the bread. I find the refrigerator preserves it just fine.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 01:24 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Back to frozen: Is there any proof of cells damaged by freezing? Theory is that the water in the cells expands and tears the cell walls. But water only expands umm 4% when it freezes. Cell walls are flexible that much. Plus the water has lots of stuff in it to modify it's behavior. Photo-micro-graphs please?
"Generally, rapid freezing results in better quality frozen products when compared with slow freezing. If freezing is instantaneous, there will be more locations within the food where crystallization begins. In contrast, if freezing is slow, the crystal growth will be slower with few nucleation sites resulting in larger ice crystals. Large ice crystals are known to cause mechanical damage to cell walls in addition to cell dehydration. Thus, the rate of freezing for plant tissues is extremely important due to the effect of freezing rate on the size of ice crystals, cell hydration, and damage to cell walls (Rahman, 1999)."

http://www.fao.org/3/y5979e/y5979e03.htm

It looks like it mostly depends on the rate at which something freezes. It's not a hard thing to test, though - just pop a banana in your freezer, then let it thaw out. It'll be noticeably mushier than before you froze it; that's something so well known, it's even a common baking tip. It's because most home freezers don't get as cold as commercial ones, take longer to freeze things, and create bigger ice crystals.

Last edited by ArchSas; 22nd August 2019 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 04:11 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
"Generally, rapid freezing results in better quality frozen products when compared with slow freezing. If freezing is instantaneous, there will be more locations within the food where crystallization begins. In contrast, if freezing is slow, the crystal growth will be slower with few nucleation sites resulting in larger ice crystals. Large ice crystals are known to cause mechanical damage to cell walls in addition to cell dehydration. Thus, the rate of freezing for plant tissues is extremely important due to the effect of freezing rate on the size of ice crystals, cell hydration, and damage to cell walls (Rahman, 1999)."

http://www.fao.org/3/y5979e/y5979e03.htm

It looks like it mostly depends on the rate at which something freezes. It's not a hard thing to test, though - just pop a banana in your freezer, then let it thaw out. It'll be noticeably mushier than before you froze it; that's something so well known, it's even a common baking tip. It's because most home freezers don't get as cold as commercial ones, take longer to freeze things, and create bigger ice crystals.
So something to do with coldness makes bananas get softer. I wonder if it is an enzyme thing, the coldness releases the same enzymes as usually ripens them? If so, it probably happens above freezing. Hmm, like the many seeds need a cold snap to germinate. It's one of the things that define geographical growth zones. Hmmm, ya know, they don't recommend putting bananas in the fridge AT ALL. I did with my last clump, overall they ripened slower, but had more 'over ripe' sections. Many fruits are "fridge not recommended".

Which again brings up potential changes in nutrition with freezing.
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Old 22nd August 2019, 05:09 PM   #62
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The general consensus indicates that, if anything, frozen foods potentially retain more nutrients than fresh.

The main factor for fresh being ripeness at picking time and time from picking to eating.
The longer fresh is stored, more nutrients are lost.
With frozen, the nutrients at picking are preserved right up until the time you thaw them. And there are some veg/fruit that just don't take to freezing - celery for instance. I've never seen that as a frozen veg.

But that is commercial snap-frozen.
I'd hazard that home freezers cannot cool/freeze quickly enough and cells are damaged due to water expansion, which doesn't happen with snap frozen method.

Certainly most veg and fruit I freeze at home don't retain their texture upon thawing.
I stick to freezing leftover fruit pieces for later use for smoothies - the only time a frozen banana becomes edible!
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Old 23rd August 2019, 06:40 AM   #63
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Celery is available frozen along with other vegetables in packages such as soup starters and the "holy trinity" used as a base for lots of recipes. The celery seems to handle freezing as well as the onions and peppers. So, I assume is just a matter of demand. No one really wants to buy a package of frozen celery.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 06:49 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Chilling starches does cause some change, that is why macaroni salad is different than hot pasta. I suppose bread may be similar?

But yeah, Dad's girlfriend used to freeze the bread. I find the refrigerator preserves it just fine.
I am no expert, but my understanding is that bread actually goes stale faster when refrigerated due to moisture loss and the way the starches react.

Best kept at room temperature I believe, well wrapped.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 07:01 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
I am no expert, but my understanding is that bread actually goes stale faster when refrigerated due to moisture loss and the way the starches react.

Best kept at room temperature I believe, well wrapped.
My sister lives in the townhouse next door to mine and she refrigerated her bread, claiming it goes moldy in a day if she doesn't. I never refrigerate my bread and have not seen a speck of mold yet. The difference is that she either runs her air conditioning or opens the windows, so her house in summer is always either cold or else warm and humid. By contrast I never run my a.c. and never open the windows so my house is hot and dry. I think the bread prefers it that way, I know I do. Therefore logically I must be made of bread, which indicates I may be Jesus Christ, per Catholicism. Hmmm. Not what I expected to figure out today, but I always had a sneaking suspicion.
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Old 23rd August 2019, 10:24 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
My sister lives in the townhouse next door to mine and she refrigerated her bread, claiming it goes moldy in a day if she doesn't. I never refrigerate my bread and have not seen a speck of mold yet. The difference is that she either runs her air conditioning or opens the windows, so her house in summer is always either cold or else warm and humid. By contrast I never run my a.c. and never open the windows so my house is hot and dry. I think the bread prefers it that way, I know I do. Therefore logically I must be made of bread, which indicates I may be Jesus Christ, per Catholicism. Hmmm. Not what I expected to figure out today, but I always had a sneaking suspicion.
Not a bad piece of detective work! Of course, just to be sure we'll have to drive some nails through your hands and feet....
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Old 23rd August 2019, 12:19 PM   #67
casebro
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Not a bad piece of detective work! Of course, just to be sure we'll have to drive some nails through your hands and feet....
Wouldn't the holes already be there?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 12:39 PM   #68
jadebox
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Wouldn't the holes already be there?
He's a bagel?
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Old 23rd August 2019, 07:18 PM   #69
EHocking
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
Celery is available frozen along with other vegetables in packages such as soup starters and the "holy trinity" used as a base for lots of recipes. The celery seems to handle freezing as well as the onions and peppers. So, I assume is just a matter of demand. No one really wants to buy a package of frozen celery.
Well that seems to back up my conjecture that household freezers canít freeze veg correctly.
The texture of celery, onions and bell peppers donít survive well when Iíve frozen them
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:31 AM   #70
jadebox
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Well that seems to back up my conjecture that household freezers canít freeze veg correctly.
The texture of celery, onions and bell peppers donít survive well when Iíve frozen them
They aren't quite the same texture as fresh after being commercially frozen and thawed. You wouldn't enjoy thawed frozen onions on a hamburger, but they would be fine for cooking.

Commercially frozen food relies on processes that aren't practical at home. I am an expert now after reading the following page:

http://www.fao.org/3/y5979e/y5979e03.htm
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Old 24th August 2019, 11:49 AM   #71
Elagabalus
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Here's a real expert:

http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/seaso...berrytrans.htm

Goto scene 5 or


https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5sktit
Goto 13:15
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