ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

Reply
Old 1st September 2019, 11:34 PM   #41
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,168
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Mueller could have jumped on the table and screamed that Trump was as guilty as sin and the Trumpublicans would still being ignoring it. Blaming him because they refuse to accept the bleeding obvious is targeting the wrong person.
True, but it would have been nice to see AND it may have changed public sentiment more than it did.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd September 2019, 01:21 AM   #42
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,342
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Mueller could have jumped on the table and screamed that Trump was as guilty as sin and the Trumpublicans would still being ignoring it. Blaming him because they refuse to accept the bleeding obvious is targeting the wrong person.
For some significant fraction, it's probably not wrong to say that they very much do accept the bleeding obvious and either don't care or lie about it "happily." It's unfortunate, but there are a lot of people who have anxiety about the future of the people of their tribe more than the future of their personal health or pocketbook... and that leads to a number of unpleasant choices.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd September 2019, 09:13 AM   #43
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,334
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I don't think so. I think Mueller was hamstrung from the beginning because Republicans would only agree to an independent investigation as long as it had no teeth. I also still believe Mueller could have done more than he did.
The Republicans had no role in establishing the investigation. Rosenstein was the one who created the investigation, all by himself - as far as I am able to determine.
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd September 2019, 10:41 AM   #44
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,444
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
The Republicans had no role in establishing the investigation. Rosenstein was the one who created the investigation, all by himself - as far as I am able to determine.
Yes. It also cannot be stated enough that this appointment was not the beginning of the investigation, it was establishing a single independent authority for several related investigations.
Delphic Oracle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd September 2019, 11:08 AM   #45
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,511
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
The Republicans had no role in establishing the investigation. Rosenstein was the one who created the investigation, all by himself - as far as I am able to determine.

Wait, but isn't Rosenstein himself a Republican? And who's to know what behind-the-door talks he may have had or not had with other Republicans in establishing the investigation? Why would you assume Republicans had no role?
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd September 2019, 11:25 AM   #46
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,334
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Wait, but isn't Rosenstein himself a Republican? And who's to know what behind-the-door talks he may have had or not had with other Republicans in establishing the investigation? Why would you assume Republicans had no role?
I was intending to talk about an *official* role for Republicans other than Rosenstein, because it's going to be hard to confirm what happened unofficially. I happy to accept unofficial influence if and when it's confirmed. I can even accept some amount of unofficial influence just on general principles, as no one is an island. But that doesn't mean it was significant or determinative.

My limitation to official role or influence was not explicit, admittedly.
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd September 2019, 11:36 AM   #47
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,511
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
I was intending to talk about an *official* role for Republicans other than Rosenstein, because it's going to be hard to confirm what happened unofficially. I happy to accept unofficial influence if and when it's confirmed. I can even accept some amount of unofficial influence just on general principles, as no one is an island. But that doesn't mean it was significant or determinative.

My limitation to official role or influence was not explicit, admittedly.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying there was unofficial influence either. I do tend to expect it anymore, however.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd September 2019, 11:53 AM   #48
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 3,444
The order naming Mueller to run the SCO referred to Comey's testimony before the intelligence committee being the catalyst for taking that action.
Delphic Oracle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd September 2019, 04:20 PM   #49
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,342
Hmm...

Minnesota was mentioned just once in the Mueller report. Here's why it matters

Quote:
1. While Democrats thought the other three states were in play, they didn't think that was true of Minnesota—so the Russians would have known to target the other three states by virtue of having stolen the Democratic playbook, but not Minnesota.

2. The press hadn't pinpointed Minnesota as being in play in either. For instance, a late October Minnesota Star Tribune poll found Clinton widening her lead to 8 points over Trump. Huffington Post's aggregate found a very similar margin across all polls of the state up to Election Day.

3. There was a lot of Russian troll activity in Minnesota, according to Jamison, who thoroughly researched the topic for her recent book, Cyberwar: How Russian Hackers and Trolls Helped Elect a President. Before release of the Mueller report, Jamison said, "I could never explain why."

4. The Trump campaign clearly thought it was in play and deployed Trump there only two days before Election Day. "With just days left until Election Day, Donald Trump tried to do what 10 Republican presidential candidates have failed to accomplish: Win Minnesota," reported the St. Paul Pioneer Press on November 6, 2016.

Minnesota is the one state that only the Trump campaign thought was in play, that also saw heightened Russian troll activity, and that also made Manafort's exclusive internal poll briefing in August.

"It was unexpectedly close," Jamieson said of the state. "There's my little piece," she added, "that says, Hmm, if there was going to be coordination, on that one I can't explain it from having the Democratic playbook."
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2019, 02:18 AM   #50
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 84,470
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
True, but it would have been nice to see AND it may have changed public sentiment more than it did.
It seems like you're dead-set on blaming Mueller despite giving PhantomWolf all of his points. I don't get why.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2019, 10:50 AM   #51
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 25,248
https://twitter.com/ZoeTillman/statu...73708714201090

Quote:
Rep. Devin Nunes filed a $9.9M+ racketeering lawsuit today against Fusion GPS, accusing the group of conspiring to intimidate and harass him in retaliation for investigating the Steele dossier https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...-Complaint.pdf … (HT @bradheath)
Document embedded in tweet.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2019, 10:56 AM   #52
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,042
Who is giving Nunes the money for his lawsuits?
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2019, 11:10 AM   #53
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,340
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
As someone said in the comments, I wonder if Nunez realizes that discovery goes both ways. It's not just a one-way street. Nunez is going to HAVE to provide evidence, and turn over things to prove his case. I wouldn't be surprised if Fusion didn't try to toss this out immediately just to get that far.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2019, 02:32 PM   #54
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,369
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Who is giving Nunes the money for his lawsuits?

I'd like to say the NRA, but they seem to be fresh out of simoleons at the moment!
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2019, 01:58 AM   #55
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 25,248
https://twitter.com/KlasfeldReports/...91188071485441

Quote:
New: Three House committees are investigating "reported efforts by Trump, his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani, and possibly others to pressure Ukraine to help the President's reelection campaign."

Passage from the 5-page letter. cc:@CourthouseNews https://intelligence.house.gov/uploa...on_ukraine.pdf
Excerpt embedded in tweet.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2019, 02:02 AM   #56
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 25,248
https://twitter.com/joshscampbell/st...95372703207424

Quote:
House Intel Committee says fired National Security Adviser Michael Flynn failed to comply with a subpoena. They are demanding he appear on September 25. (@mkraju @jeremyherb)
Article embedded in tweet.

https://twitter.com/eliehonig/status...18302724272130

Quote:
Michael Flynn’s new lawyers already have guided him off the rails and he’s going to end up behind bars as a result (when he could have coasted to probation if he cooperated fully). This newest shenanigan will hurt him even more at sentencing.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2019, 02:18 AM   #57
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,042
Flynn's new lawyer Sidney Powell doesn't give a damn about him not going to jail - indeed, she might prefer it since then she could have a talking point about Deep State Show Trials.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:51 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.