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Old 4th September 2019, 12:18 PM   #41
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Anti-aging medication in 5-12 years?
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Old 4th September 2019, 12:19 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Last month I reread a book that I read 17 years ago. I know that I read it because I remember the title, and reading it is what lead me to eventually buy the whole series. (It was laying around at a place where I was stuck for several hours, and I didn't have a book of my own.)

I had absolutely no recollection of the events in the book. It was as if I had never read it in the first place.
Odd. My parents sometimes rent or watch a movie on TV that they don't remember and then they realise watching it that they've seen it already.

I've never had that problem. Despite a pretty shoddy memory on some things, I never forget whether I've seen a movie or not.
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Old 4th September 2019, 12:22 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Same here, but add a few zeroes.
What?

A god whose not immortal?

Tell me it isn't true!
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Old 4th September 2019, 12:41 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Odd. My parents sometimes rent or watch a movie on TV that they don't remember and then they realise watching it that they've seen it already.

I've never had that problem. Despite a pretty shoddy memory on some things, I never forget whether I've seen a movie or not.

It was book 7 in a 13 book series, and I hadn't read any of the other books, so I wasn't really invested in the story. It was something to kill time while running environmental sample collections.
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Old 4th September 2019, 03:21 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Last month I reread a book that I read 17 years ago. I know that I read it because I remember the title, and reading it is what lead me to eventually buy the whole series. (It was laying around at a place where I was stuck for several hours, and I didn't have a book of my own.)

I had absolutely no recollection of the events in the book. It was as if I had never read it in the first place.
My method is that I don't keep a book in my library unless it's worth rereading. Rule of thumb, I will reread a good book after 20 years, by that time I will remember enough for it to be even better than the first read, but have forgotten enough that the suspense is still there.
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Old 4th September 2019, 04:16 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh, I'm sure there will be some effect. People do die of age-related conditions such as these. But something's still going to get you in the end.

Yes, you wouldn't want to die of nothing would you?
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Old 4th September 2019, 06:30 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Can you imagine the depth of boredom it would be possible to experience if you lived a really long time? Once you've seen everything, done everything, and run out of conversation then you'd be bored with existence and everything in it.
In this universe "everything" encompasses rather a lot.
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Old 4th September 2019, 06:34 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
What?

A god whose not immortal?

Tell me it isn't true!
A LOT of zeroes.
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Old 5th September 2019, 04:45 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I dunno - I can think of worse ways that science could use my dead body. Henrietta's legacy has been making solid contributions to science for many decades.

Yes, definitely, but the downside is that she died at 31.
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Old 5th September 2019, 05:53 AM   #50
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I have a low boiling resentment at the shortness of human life.
80 years (give or take) is nowhere near enough time.

We should be spending at least 50% of our GDP on a "Manhattan project" to make death optional. That we are not just shows how far into denial we are.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:22 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
In this universe "everything" encompasses rather a lot.
The vast majority of which you'd never get the opportunity to do even if you actually did live "forever" (I'm assuming nobody actually wishes to outlive the universe itself). It's simply too big.

Notice how most fantasies of immortality also include the immortal having magic powers and abilities. That's because a normal human life, prolonged indefinitely, would become intolerable without additions. In which case it's not really immortality people fantasize about, it's deification. I believe the real attraction there is power, and the long lifespan is just to allow ample opportunity to exercise it.

Here's a question: would you rather have godlike powers (say, like the Q in Star Trek) for the rest of your natural human mortal lifespan, then die like everyone else...or be your regular human self without any changes except you live forever? We'll throw in good health and not aging further than you already have to make it more palatable.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:44 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
...or be your regular human self without any changes except you live forever? We'll throw in good health and not aging further than you already have to make it more palatable.

This could create its own problems if you live a really long time. In the comic book series "Powers", one of the main characters is an immortal who has been alive since literally the dawn of humanity. He was born as a pre-human hominid, but his DNA gradually shifted to keep pace with human evolution. Imagine if that's not the case for you and you live long enough that you are no longer the same species as the one that dominates the planet.
His brain can also only hold a normal human lifespan of memories. Anything farther back is vaguely remembered fragments, like the remnants of dreams.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:04 AM   #53
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I don't know what the ideal lifespan would be for me. I do know that at 38 life is starting to look pretty short. There are a lot of things that I'd like to do in my time that, say, 80 years doesn't look like it's going to accomodate. Of course one solution is to try to be more active about achieving my goals, but having some more time would be nice. And it's not just the total amount of time, either. I think some of those goals will be harder to achieve at 60 or 70 (if I make it that long) than they are now, just due to lower vitality but as well as potential health issues.

My dad is 70 now, and while he's still active and relatively healthy, he's had to cut back on some activities (like hiking) that he used to love. Some of the affects of aging impact on his day to day life. I think it'd be better for him if he didn't face those issues. And for myself I'd rather not face those issues (or face them to a lesser extent) if that is possible.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:10 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, definitely, but the downside is that she died at 31.
Not all of her.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:25 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I don't know what the ideal lifespan would be for me. I do know that at 38 life is starting to look pretty short. There are a lot of things that I'd like to do in my time that, say, 80 years doesn't look like it's going to accomodate.
No, I'd need at least 28,954 years, by my calculations.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:33 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
[...] Despite a pretty shoddy memory on some things, I never forget whether I've seen a movie or not.
How would you know?
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:34 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
How would you know?
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:41 AM   #58
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My concern with living forever would be having to work at the same job with the same boss forever and never being able to retire.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:43 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
My concern with living forever would be having to work at the same job with the same boss forever and never being able to retire.
Or worse; retiring at 55 and spending the next 28,899 living off pension. Not sure the economy would work out very well.
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Old 5th September 2019, 08:40 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Can you imagine the depth of boredom it would be possible to experience if you lived a really long time? Once you've seen everything, done everything, and run out of conversation then you'd be bored with existence and everything in it.

No, because that kind of boredom is something I cannot imagine in a world where I'm not omniscient. To my mind, anyone who says immortality would be boring is profoundly lacking in curiosity. There are so many things out there to learn, that there will never, can never, be an end to learning. Becoming an expert in any single, narrow-focused field typically takes most of an ordinary human lifetime. Imagine how many subjects one could be an expert in given many lifetimes, imagine the cross-discipline research and discovery that could result.

Not to mention the depth and breadth of artistic endeavours to indulge in.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I sort of think of it like the DNA in a cell replicating itself is like scanning a xerox copy, of a xerox copy, over and over again, with the picture quality degrading massively each round. So over the years, your entire genetic structures on the DNA level start to break down and lose "fidelity". That's why you're prone to death from everything in old age - cancers, all of your organs are weak, your bones, your immune system, etc.

There was a great explanation of this aired on NPR a while back. The problem is, yes they can repair telomeres and stop telomere degredation; but the inevitable result of that is a huge increase in cancerous tumours, as the same mechanism that causes inevitable cell death also helps prevent cancer.
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Old 5th September 2019, 08:44 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
No, because that kind of boredom is something I cannot imagine in a world where I'm not omniscient. To my mind, anyone who says immortality would be boring is profoundly lacking in curiosity. There are so many things out there to learn, that there will never, can never, be an end to learning. Becoming an expert in any single, narrow-focused field typically takes most of an ordinary human lifetime. Imagine how many subjects one could be an expert in given many lifetimes, imagine the cross-discipline research and discovery that could result.

Not to mention the depth and breadth of artistic endeavours to indulge in.
Are you claiming that you never experience boredom? Because your holier-than-thou lecture implies it.
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Old 5th September 2019, 08:51 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Are you claiming that you never experience boredom? Because your holier-than-thou lecture implies it.
Lecture? I didn't see what you describe.
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Old 5th September 2019, 08:56 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Lecture? I didn't see what you describe.
You're not exactly known for picking up tone; it's why so many people get into arguments with you, they pick up messages you aren't intending to send.
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Old 5th September 2019, 09:18 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Are you claiming that you never experience boredom? Because your holier-than-thou lecture implies it.
It doesn't imply that he doesn't experience boredom, though it may imply that the rate at which he experiences boredom doesn't increase over time.

Personally I'm bored a lot less now than I was as a child.
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Old 5th September 2019, 09:25 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It doesn't imply that he doesn't experience boredom, though it may imply that the rate at which he experiences boredom doesn't increase over time.

Personally I'm bored a lot less now than I was as a child.
It is absolutely implied. The claim was that only those "profoundly lacking in curiosity" could experience boredom as immortals, because there's so much to learn and so many arts to pursue. Well, the amount of learning to do and arts to pursue isn't smaller as a result of being a mortal, is it? So unless luchog is "profoundly lacking in curiosity" they must be pursuing knowledge and art at all times when lesser minds would be experiencing occasional boredom.

Unless knowledge and art aren't worth pursuing if one is mortal and can't hope to collect it all, as if intellectual pursuit were a Pokemon pursuit.
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Old 5th September 2019, 09:32 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Personally I'm bored a lot less now than I was as a child.
Same.
It's the internet.
I have 2 kids, and they're never bored the way I was as a kid.
Whenever our power goes out (which happens regularly in my city) my kids always express deep sympathy for childhood me. LOL
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Old 5th September 2019, 09:36 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It is absolutely implied. The claim was that only those "profoundly lacking in curiosity" could experience boredom as immortals, because there's so much to learn and so many arts to pursue. Well, the amount of learning to do and arts to pursue isn't smaller as a result of being a mortal, is it? So unless luchog is "profoundly lacking in curiosity" they must be pursuing knowledge and art at all times when lesser minds would be experiencing occasional boredom.

Unless knowledge and art aren't worth pursuing if one is mortal and can't hope to collect it all, as if intellectual pursuit were a Pokemon pursuit.
I think it was also implied that he was replying to the idea that boredom would become a larger problem for extremely long living people than for people with modern lifespans. The point is that the problem of boredom won't become worse because the supply of interesting things is effectively infinite. This doesn't suggest that it would alleviate boredom, just the immortality is unrelated to boredom.
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Old 5th September 2019, 09:37 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Same.
It's the internet.
I have 2 kids, and they're never bored the way I was as a kid.
Whenever our power goes out (which happens regularly in my city) my kids always express deep sympathy for childhood me. LOL
Hell, even when I'm bored I find things to spend my time with.

I'm with luchog on this. Immortality doesn't sound boring at all. Of course I'd need either space travel or planeswalking in order to fully utilise my endless time.
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Old 5th September 2019, 09:47 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think it was also implied that he was replying to the idea that boredom would become a larger problem for extremely long living people than for people with modern lifespans. The point is that the problem of boredom won't become worse because the supply of interesting things is effectively infinite. This doesn't suggest that it would alleviate boredom, just the immortality is unrelated to boredom.
Boredom isn't a reaction to a lack of things to do, though. It's an emotion where your brain convinces you that you should be doing something other than whatever you're currently experiencing. All the knowledge in the world, laid out neatly for immediate access, will not alleviate boredom if you don't feel like reading something right then. If your brain suddenly switches on discontentment with something you cannot overrule that emotion by deciding "I will improve my intellect by doing X".

I believe anyone living long enough will experience this feeling more frequently. The brain will grow increasingly impatient with the inputs it's getting. "Hooray, we learned all there is to know about the 34,608th species of fish. Let's read all about the 34,609th? How about instead we jump into a volcano?" Impatience, boredom, and inevitable madness will result.
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Old 5th September 2019, 09:51 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I believe anyone living long enough will experience this feeling more frequently. The brain will grow increasingly impatient with the inputs it's getting.
I'd think it'd be the opposite. Each passing second, minute, hour, day and year will seem a lot shorter than they did a thousand years ago, so you'd probably be bored less.

Or myabe Robo's right and it has nothing to do with it, and living longer doesn't make you more bored. Aren't teens bored out of their minds, usually?
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:02 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'd think it'd be the opposite. Each passing second, minute, hour, day and year will seem a lot shorter than they did a thousand years ago, so you'd probably be bored less.

Or myabe Robo's right and it has nothing to do with it, and living longer doesn't make you more bored. Aren't teens bored out of their minds, usually?
Doesn't anybody know any really old people? Three of my grandparents lived past 95, and one lived to 104. They did not lead exciting, interesting lives full of fascinating pursuits for their final decades. Everyone thinks it'll be different for them, they will age gracefully, and retain active minds bubbling with wisdom and eager for more learning! Then they turn into their parents, then their grandparents, and fade away mentally unless their body goes first. You're right that there is never really a lack of things to do. The problem is that the will to do them dwindles.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:05 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Doesn't anybody know any really old people? Three of my grandparents lived past 95, and one lived to 104. They did not lead exciting, interesting lives full of fascinating pursuits for their final decades.
But isn't that in part because of their physical and mental degradation? If they were just as spry as they were at 20, they wouldn't be so sedentary.

Quote:
Everyone thinks it'll be different for them, they will age gracefully, and retain active minds bubbling with wisdom and eager for more learning!
But we're not talking about aging like now. We're talking about virtual immortality and eternal youth. Sure, I can see some boredom setting in, but I can also see it being alleviated, so I don't know actually which way it'd go.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:07 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You're right that there is never really a lack of things to do. The problem is that the will to do them dwindles.
It's not just a matter of will, it's also a matter of ability. Even if the mind stays sharp, physical frailty is a terrible thing, and can make even ordinary activities impossible. Plus, physical frailty feeds into mental decline.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:14 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not just a matter of will, it's also a matter of ability. Even if the mind stays sharp, physical frailty is a terrible thing, and can make even ordinary activities impossible. Plus, physical frailty feeds into mental decline.
And pain, even in the able-bodied, is a powerful demotivater. When I've had a toothache or a bad stomachache there's no activity imaginable that I would have been willing to pursue until the pain ended.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:28 AM   #75
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Ugh. I think I need to bow out of this one. My view of mortality and the delicacy of human life is too colored by my work. I spent much of this morning reviewing diagnostic codes on medical records, learning of the many reasons why people sometimes need to have their eyes surgically removed. Definitely presents a perspective of human frailty!
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:45 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Ugh. I think I need to bow out of this one. My view of mortality and the delicacy of human life is too colored by my work. I spent much of this morning reviewing diagnostic codes on medical records, learning of the many reasons why people sometimes need to have their eyes surgically removed. Definitely presents a perspective of human frailty!
Aw, man. I think it's an interesting discussion.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:46 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Boredom isn't a reaction to a lack of things to do, though. It's an emotion where your brain convinces you that you should be doing something other than whatever you're currently experiencing. All the knowledge in the world, laid out neatly for immediate access, will not alleviate boredom if you don't feel like reading something right then. If your brain suddenly switches on discontentment with something you cannot overrule that emotion by deciding "I will improve my intellect by doing X".

I believe anyone living long enough will experience this feeling more frequently. The brain will grow increasingly impatient with the inputs it's getting. "Hooray, we learned all there is to know about the 34,608th species of fish. Let's read all about the 34,609th? How about instead we jump into a volcano?" Impatience, boredom, and inevitable madness will result.
That highlighted part basically only happens to me when I'm doing something objectively boring, like driving through farmland for hours on end.

Re: learning things, that's only fun when it's driven by "organic" curiosity, and it's best when you're figuring out something nobody, or very few people, have figured out before, or pairing obscure info with a relevant question.

Like, when I was learning about the operations of the Spanish Empire in the land that's now the USA, I was wondering what info might be exclusive to the Vatican, and looking at stuff like this:

Quote:
A New York Times article from 1897 described a mound in Wisconsin in which a giant human skeleton measuring over 9 ft in length was found.[29] From 1886, another New York Times article described water receding from a mound in Cartersville, Georgia, which uncovered acres of skulls and bones, some of which were said to be gigantic. Two thigh bones were measured with the height of their owners estimated at 14 ft.[30] President Lincoln made reference to the giants whose bones fill the mounds of America.
So...sorting through and thinking about...woo, is fun. LOL There will always be new woo to dazzle the imagination.
This whole thread having us speculating about drugs that could have people living 300 years is almost the same thing. lol
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:47 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
That highlighted part basically only happens to me when I'm doing something objectively boring
Nonsense. There's no such thing as objectively bo--

Quote:
like driving through farmland for hours on end.
...conceded.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:51 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not just a matter of will, it's also a matter of ability. Even if the mind stays sharp, physical frailty is a terrible thing, and can make even ordinary activities impossible. Plus, physical frailty feeds into mental decline.
I think most of us were operating under the hypothetical of our bodies being like they were at 20-ish years old, and under those conditions, when (if ever) would life get too boring to be worth sticking around for.

It's a given that physical frailty/deterioration/pain is not very tolerable for long.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:53 AM   #80
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Why is farmland so dull to drive through? I've driven for ten hour stretches through desert in New Mexico and Texas. I've driven for thirteen hour stretches through forests going fron Georgia to Virginia. Neither were anywhere near as horrible as driving a mere five hours across Illinois. I was ready to drive off a cliff had any mercifully presented themselves.
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