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Old 5th September 2019, 10:54 AM   #81
kellyb
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Nonsense. There's no such thing as objectively bo--



...conceded.
I end up being reduced to singing "Hey, Look me Over" and "Cabaret" numerous times.

Heh.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:54 AM   #82
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Another thought: I'd eschew immortality if I were the only person to have it. I'd hate to outlive literally everyone I ever met.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:58 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Another thought: I'd eschew immortality if I were the only person to have it. I'd hate to outlive literally everyone I ever met.
That's ok. You eventually grow to see them as insects, anyway.
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Old 5th September 2019, 10:58 AM   #84
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I'm with Luchog on this one. There's so much yet I want to learn! I've spent so much of my life seeking knowledge (outside the school system for the most part) and 60 years has barely brushed the surface of what I know I want to learn. Each thing I explore has multitudes of pathways to follow from there, and so on and so on.

That doesn't even touch on all the new discoveries and developments - there's so much I want to know and so little time to learn it all. Of course I still get bored sometimes. I need downtime for creativity and for other things. But I can never imagine being bored with life.
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:00 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Another thought: I'd eschew immortality if I were the only person to have it. I'd hate to outlive literally everyone I ever met.
Yeah, that would get too depressing to contemplate real quick.
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:04 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's ok. You eventually grow to see them as insects, anyway.
If some of us were unchanging immortals we'd witness the rest of humanity evolving over time. Eventually they might indeed become insectlike. Picture it: Sicily, 19 million AD. A hubeetle clacks in, its thorax pulsating with glowing endolymph, chirping a greeting to the pet immortals suspended in the bloodharvest pods. The spacefleet is sending off another transgalactic colony squad and the hubeetles want to celebrate with bloodcakes for the launch party!
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:10 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If some of us were unchanging immortals we'd witness the rest of humanity evolving over time. Eventually they might indeed become insectlike. Picture it: Sicily, 19 million AD. A hubeetle clacks in, its thorax pulsating with glowing endolymph, chirping a greeting to the pet immortals suspended in the bloodharvest pods. The spacefleet is sending off another transgalactic colony squad and the hubeetles want to celebrate with bloodcakes for the launch party!
That's how the beetlerian jihad got started.
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:23 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You're not exactly known for picking up tone; it's why so many people get into arguments with you, they pick up messages you aren't intending to send.

Like your comment about me "lecturing".

There are only two sets of conditions under which I experience significant boredom: one in which I am actively prevented from the pursuit of learning things by circumstances; and the other in which I am too fatigued, ill, or depressed to actively pursue learning things. If I could be sure of never encountering either of those sets of conditions, I doubt that boredom would ever be much of a problem for me. And the entire point of life-extension is not only to extend the years in which one lives, but also one's health and mental acuity during those years.
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Old 5th September 2019, 11:45 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Or worse; retiring at 55 and spending the next 28,899 living off pension. Not sure the economy would work out very well.
I would take a death-optional existence even if it meant spending the next century living under a bridge.

I don't particularly see myself as mastering various fields of endeavor during that time either. Or working much beyond what would be necessary to provide a modicum of comforts and sustinence.

I would primarily spend it watching how things play out, it depresses me that there is so much that I will never get to see the conclusion of.
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Old 5th September 2019, 04:03 PM   #90
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I'm with the Monkey on this one, but I really don't much feel like trying to explain it to you people. What's the point.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:14 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If some of us were unchanging immortals we'd witness the rest of humanity evolving over time. Eventually they might indeed become insectlike. Picture it: Sicily, 19 million AD. A hubeetle clacks in, its thorax pulsating with glowing endolymph, chirping a greeting to the pet immortals suspended in the bloodharvest pods. The spacefleet is sending off another transgalactic colony squad and the hubeetles want to celebrate with bloodcakes for the launch party!
That's part of the premise of an anime. Except it's space squid, the evolution was engineered and not natural, and only about half the human race was changed. Which led to a never-ending war between the two factions.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:23 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Boredom isn't a reaction to a lack of things to do, though. It's an emotion where your brain convinces you that you should be doing something other than whatever you're currently experiencing. All the knowledge in the world, laid out neatly for immediate access, will not alleviate boredom if you don't feel like reading something right then. If your brain suddenly switches on discontentment with something you cannot overrule that emotion by deciding "I will improve my intellect by doing X".

I believe anyone living long enough will experience this feeling more frequently. The brain will grow increasingly impatient with the inputs it's getting. "Hooray, we learned all there is to know about the 34,608th species of fish. Let's read all about the 34,609th? How about instead we jump into a volcano?" Impatience, boredom, and inevitable madness will result.
Don't get me wrong, I think there's something to at least consider in the issue. I was talking more about the content of luchog's post than my own thoughts.

I certainly think you're right that if we were offered immortality in the body of a 90 year old, that would be an unattractive choice. And boredom would very much factor in to it: there's just not that much that I could see myself enjoying in that physical state. My own quality of life has been severely affected over the last few years by a neck/shoulder injury but I'm still more physically active than most people my age. So I've got some hints at what physical degredation can do and there's a point where I think it would be difficult to continue to find much joy in life. Pain as well, as you say.

But I think the premise of the thread is actually more about health extension than life-extension, and the degree to which we are talking about longer lives is predicated on healthy, youthful, longer lives. That's the case in which I really do think that there's a lot to do that would keep me motivated and excited about life for a lot longer than a current human lifespan.

How long? It's hard to say. I can also see that at least the idea that I could become bored even in that healthy and youthful condition seems reasonable. There are things that I used to love that I am now sort of, just not that interested in. Happily they've been replaced by other things that are exciting and interesting, but... this is hard to explain: if I'm exposed to some category of initially interesting thing for long enough I might get bored with whatever it was that made that thing interesting. Okay, so move on to another category. Fine, but there has to be something about that category that makes it interesting. It's like you were saying about the 30,000th insect. Yes, that one may have been very interesting if it were the first insect you've ever seen, but after studying so many others, is there any real novelty to be found in the 30,000th? The 3 millionth? Even new things start to overlap with things you've already seen to the point that novelty starts to wear off.

For me this happens a little with movies. They all start to seem to follow the same formula. When I was very young I didn't even recognise the formulas. Later, while I did, the differences from one story to another were enough to make up for the similarities. Now I start to feel more and more like I'm just watching the same thing dressed in different clothes. I still enjoy it, but it's harder to find any novelty in entertainment than it used to be. This sort of thing may extend to all domains, and I think it's the problem you're talking about.

There is a question, though, of whether or not we need novelty to avoid boredom. There's nothing really new about hiking up a high mountain (particularly one I've been up a dozen times before), but I still love it. I still enjoy sex, even though I've done it a number of times, and there's nothing particularly novel about the experience. Are those sorts of non-novel experiences enough to continue to find meaning in life? It's hard to say, really. Enjoying them may be predicated on a sense of growth or progress in other aspects of life.

But, to come back to the point: I think there's enough variety in the world to keep the sense of novelty for at least another century beyond our current 80 year lifespans. If, at that point, science is still keeping us alive, well, one can always just stop taking the medicine, or, as I said earlier, take up wingsuit flying or some other extreme sport or otherwise dangerous pursuit.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:35 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The vast majority of which you'd never get the opportunity to do even if you actually did live "forever" (I'm assuming nobody actually wishes to outlive the universe itself). It's simply too big.

Notice how most fantasies of immortality also include the immortal having magic powers and abilities. That's because a normal human life, prolonged indefinitely, would become intolerable without additions. In which case it's not really immortality people fantasize about, it's deification. I believe the real attraction there is power, and the long lifespan is just to allow ample opportunity to exercise it.

Here's a question: would you rather have godlike powers (say, like the Q in Star Trek) for the rest of your natural human mortal lifespan, then die like everyone else...or be your regular human self without any changes except you live forever? We'll throw in good health and not aging further than you already have to make it more palatable.
I'd be me but live for a long time. Note that one can always decide to end one's own life if the ennui gets intolerable. And yes, if I never die from natural causes, what's to stop me from spending 10,000 years travelling to a different solar system when this one runs out of things to interest me?

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And pain, even in the able-bodied, is a powerful demotivater. When I've had a toothache or a bad stomachache there's no activity imaginable that I would have been willing to pursue until the pain ended.
We're specifically talking about a scenario where the physical effects of aging are eliminated. You remain able-bodied and mentally astute for as long as you want.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:46 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'd be me but live for a long time. Note that one can always decide to end one's own life if the ennui gets intolerable. And yes, if I never die from natural causes, what's to stop me from spending 10,000 years travelling to a different solar system when this one runs out of things to interest me?

I think it mostly boils down to whether we are, as the late great RAW would put it, homo neophilus or homo neophbobus. There's so much more out there than any one person could possibly learn in a hundred lifetimes, why wouldn't one want to stick around for some of that? I know my own curiosity is deep enough and wide enough for many of those lifetimes.

Not to mention finally having enough time to paint, photograph, and whatever new artistic media may be invented in the future; as well as finally master so many of the kinds of music that I enjoy but just haven't had the time or physical capacity for learning in this lifetime.

Funded, of course, by dividends and other payouts from long-long-long-term investments. I may not become rich enough for those pursuits in my measly 40-50 employable years on this rock, but with a couple hundred years to scrimp and save...

Quote:
We're specifically talking about a scenario where the physical effects of aging are eliminated. You remain able-bodied and mentally astute for as long as you want.

This is in the context of a thread about "anti-aging", stopping the effects of aging, after all; so I presumed that given the context that would be understood.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:50 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I think it mostly boils down to whether we are, as the late great RAW would pub it, homo neophilus or homo neophbobus. There's so much more out there than any one person could possibly learn in a hundred lifetimes, why wouldn't one want to stick around for some of that? I know my own curiosity is deep enough and wide enough for many of those lifetimes.
Anyway, can't you just take a drug to change yourself from a neophobus to a neophilus?

Hey, the shadow on the moon would be totally explained if the earth were carrot-shaped, with all the continents on the blunt end.
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Old 5th September 2019, 08:12 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Anyway, can't you just take a drug to change yourself from a neophobus to a neophilus?

A five-drug cocktail as I recall (law of fives, and all).





fnord
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:40 AM   #97
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On topic:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02638-w
Quote:
A small clinical study in California has suggested for the first time that it might be possible to reverse the body’s epigenetic clock, which measures a person’s biological age.

For one year, nine healthy volunteers took a cocktail of three common drugs — growth hormone and two diabetes medications — and on average shed 2.5 years of their biological ages, measured by analysing marks on a person’s genomes. The participants’ immune systems also showed signs of rejuvenation.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:58 AM   #98
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Cool! Cautiously optimistic.
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Old 6th September 2019, 02:18 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I'm with the Monkey on this one, but I really don't much feel like trying to explain it to you people. What's the point.
I don't know... discussion?

Or was that a joke? Or a jab?
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Old 6th September 2019, 02:20 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Can't they hurry it up?
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Old 6th September 2019, 05:30 AM   #101
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I disagree that not wanting immortality is necessarily due to fear of the new. The desire for endless life is greedy. All things, even good ones, must come to an end. Think about things you like, even love: would you really want them to stick around forever? The Simpsons Season 135. Star Wars Episode MCXXXII. A table groaning with the weight of three hundred pounds of tiramisu. Sex that last so many hours your skin succumbs to friction.

Excess kills pleasure. To progress as individuals we should be overcoming our base desires, not indulging them, and certainly not by grasping to infinitely extend them forever in a (mistaken, I believe) notion that desire is insatiable and pursuing it, forever, would be a worthy occupation for humanity.

Do you really want to be gods, having eternity to while away with seeking pleasure? Such an existence appears spiritually bankrupt to me. I think eventually anyone in that situation would become a monster. Just look at people who merely acquire a lot of money, they are free of many of the normal limitations the rest of us face; are they better or worse people because of it? Does indulgence and excess have a beneficial effect on them? Are they happier than the rest of us?

I think the proper use of life is to learn to accept our limitations, overcome our desires, and grow into better beings than we started as. I believe those three things are intertwined, and none can be achieved without the other two.
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Old 6th September 2019, 05:37 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I disagree that not wanting immortality is necessarily due to fear of the new.
In fact, wanting immortality is itself in good part due to fear.

Quote:
Excess kills pleasure.
Well, you just have to exceeed more.

Quote:
Do you really want to be gods
Yes.
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Old 6th September 2019, 05:50 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes.
Then prepare for disappointment. Wanting it makes it impossible to attain it. Only by not wanting it could you even move closer.
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Old 6th September 2019, 06:34 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Then prepare for disappointment. Wanting it makes it impossible to attain it. Only by not wanting it could you even move closer.
That doesn't make any sort of sense, but in the absence of an alternative, I'll take it.
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Old 6th September 2019, 06:41 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That doesn't make any sort of sense, but in the absence of an alternative, I'll take it.
The Stoics and Buddhists are in agreement: overcoming desire is the way to self-improvement. A god would have no desires at all, so you can't become one by wanting to. It would be trying to go forward by leaping backwards.
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Old 6th September 2019, 06:57 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The Stoics and Buddhists are in agreement: overcoming desire is the way to self-improvement.
Hindus disagree. And the Christian god definitely has strong, ridiculous feelings. We're at an impasse.
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Old 6th September 2019, 07:26 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The Stoics and Buddhists are in agreement: overcoming desire is the way to self-improvement. A god would have no desires at all, so you can't become one by wanting to. It would be trying to go forward by leaping backwards.

If you keep leaping backwards long enough, you'll eventually reach where you were trying to go.
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Old 6th September 2019, 07:33 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
If you keep leaping backwards long enough, you'll eventually reach where you were trying to go.
A better analogy would have been attempting to drink yourself sober.
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Old 6th September 2019, 07:51 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
A better analogy would have been attempting to drink yourself sober.
You can with water!
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Old 6th September 2019, 08:50 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I disagree that not wanting immortality is necessarily due to fear of the new. The desire for endless life is greedy. All things, even good ones, must come to an end.

Why? Who decreed that? What god decided that particular law? From what universal principle is it derived?

Curiosity is just the opposite of fear.

Quote:
Think about things you like, even love: would you really want them to stick around forever? The Simpsons Season 135. Star Wars Episode MCXXXII. A table groaning with the weight of three hundred pounds of tiramisu. Sex that last so many hours your skin succumbs to friction.

You clearly haven't read anything I've actually written, or you'd know this is a ridiculous straw man.

Quote:
Excess kills pleasure. To progress as individuals we should be overcoming our base desires, not indulging them, and certainly not by grasping to infinitely extend them forever in a (mistaken, I believe) notion that desire is insatiable and pursuing it, forever, would be a worthy occupation for humanity.

This is only true for base physical pleasures, which are not what I was talking about.

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Do you really want to be gods, having eternity to while away with seeking pleasure?

If you'd actually read my posts, you'd have the answer to that.

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Such an existence appears spiritually bankrupt to me.

Well, since I don't ascribe to this particular view, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. In fact, this is now veering uncomfortably into the real of the religious. "Then the Lord said, 'My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.'" Genesis 6:3. "Since his days are determined, and the number of his months is with you, and you have appointed his limits that he cannot pass," Job 14:5.

Is that the sort of thing you mean? Man is only allowed by the gods a limited span of life, and to challenge the gods is supreme hubris?

Spiritualism is all well and good for those who are afraid of facts, and want to have something to comfort those fears, I don't really see the point in it.

Quote:
I think the proper use of life is to learn to accept our limitations, overcome our desires, and grow into better beings than we started as. I believe those three things are intertwined, and none can be achieved without the other two.

Key word here, "belief". I'm not interested in irrational beliefs, only in learning and creating.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:24 AM   #111
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I think some people are assuming that all of the changes humans go through as they approach the end of life are due to aging.

I think some of it is just maturing. Like seeing that as much new as there is in the world, there is plenty of repetition. The more things change, and all of that.

Also, there is the sense that even people who have made large contributions in their respective fields tend to see that the impact they had probably would have come from someone else if they hadn't been there. Or that the impact was short lived and things moved on. A realization that the "key man" theory of history is pretty much BS and that **** will just happen.

Maybe I'm cynical, but I see it as a bit of maturity. If you spend 20 years doing something and all you have to show for it is a shelf full of trinkets and a really nice retirement, does it really matter much what that something was? Maybe it does, maybe it should, but maybe it doesn't. Maybe just making it there with most of your **** together and a few people that you love is really all that matters.

You get to sit back and watch a bit of the next season as they get started, and if you are lucky, like our young gramps in North Dakota, you may even see the season after that and a bit of the season that follows. But the rest of the story isn't yours, just like your story wasn't your grandparents. I just don't understand the attraction in pretending like it should be.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:30 AM   #112
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I'd watch Star Wars Episode MCXXXII.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:38 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I disagree that not wanting immortality is necessarily due to fear of the new. The desire for endless life is greedy. All things, even good ones, must come to an end. Think about things you like, even love: would you really want them to stick around forever? The Simpsons Season 135. Star Wars Episode MCXXXII. A table groaning with the weight of three hundred pounds of tiramisu. Sex that last so many hours your skin succumbs to friction.

Excess kills pleasure. To progress as individuals we should be overcoming our base desires, not indulging them, and certainly not by grasping to infinitely extend them forever in a (mistaken, I believe) notion that desire is insatiable and pursuing it, forever, would be a worthy occupation for humanity.

Do you really want to be gods, having eternity to while away with seeking pleasure? Such an existence appears spiritually bankrupt to me. I think eventually anyone in that situation would become a monster. Just look at people who merely acquire a lot of money, they are free of many of the normal limitations the rest of us face; are they better or worse people because of it? Does indulgence and excess have a beneficial effect on them? Are they happier than the rest of us?

I think the proper use of life is to learn to accept our limitations, overcome our desires, and grow into better beings than we started as. I believe those three things are intertwined, and none can be achieved without the other two.
If we were talking about actual immortality, I'd agree. But living 200 or 300 years doesn't seem that extreme. I don't know how old you are, but I'm 40, and the idea that I'm a little under 1/4th of the way through my lifespan sounds....about right, in terms of "feeling". LOL

I don't think the negative psychological changes brought by wealth are the same at all. Being fantastically wealthier than others makes people worse because of the comparison factor. The hypothetical health and thus life extension we're talking about would be available to all. If it was only available to a few elites, yeah, it would exacerbate their issues.

The main reason I've always (well, for about 15 years now) thought human lifespans should be longer is because I think so much wrong with the world is the result of short-term thinking and planning. 70 years isn't long enough for people to get a grip on what's going on in this world. A wealth of wisdom is just lost every time an old person dies. I think we might be a functionally smarter species if we lived longer.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:47 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The main reason I've always (well, for about 15 years now) thought human lifespans should be longer is because I think so much wrong with the world is the result of short-term thinking and planning. 70 years isn't long enough for people to get a grip on what's going on in this world. A wealth of wisdom is just lost every time an old person dies. I think we might be a functionally smarter species if we lived longer.

Possibly. The idea that people might give more of a crap about pollution and climate change if they knew they'd have to live in the aftermath of their decisions is a very tempting one to believe. But given human capacity for self-deception and scapegoating, I'm not 100% convinced.

Quote:
I don't think the negative psychological changes brought by wealth are the same at all. Being fantastically wealthier than others makes people worse because of the comparison factor. The hypothetical health and thus life extension we're talking about would be available to all. If it was only available to a few elites, yeah, it would exacerbate their issues.

Further, wealth and long life are simply not analogous. The problem with wealth is that wealth is power, in our modern world. So when we're talking about "the effects of wealth", what we are really talking about is the effects of power. Extended life, even if only for a small "elite", does not inherently grant power, not even perceived power, so would not have the same effect.
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Old 6th September 2019, 01:13 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Possibly. The idea that people might give more of a crap about pollution and climate change if they knew they'd have to live in the aftermath of their decisions is a very tempting one to believe. But given human capacity for self-deception and scapegoating, I'm not 100% convinced.
Yeah, and then there are some people who just become increasingly anti-facts dogmatic as they age.

But even if it was just 10% of the population that emotionally and intellectually grew in a "greater cumulative wisdom" sort of way, the resource they would be at 300 years old is breathtaking to imagine.

Some of my favorite people in the world are over 65, and it just seems like the future would be so much brighter if they were still only a 3rd or 4th of the way through their natural lifespans.
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:56 PM   #116
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Here's a recent study (in mice) that is working on the idea I mentioned earlier of basically resetting old cells to a young state. The genes involved are the three of the four genes (the Yamanaka transcription factors) that are used to take already differentiated adult cells and have them revert to pluripotent stem cells. (using all four genes apparently leads to death within weeks).

Some results were regeneration of crushed optic nerve cells, and old mice recovering vision similar to young mice.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/710210v1.full
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Abstract
Ageing is a degenerative process leading to tissue dysfunction and death. A proposed cause of ageing is the accumulation of epigenetic noise, which disrupts youthful gene expression patterns that are required for cells to function optimally and recover from damage1–3. Changes to DNA methylation patterns over time form the basis of an ‘ageing clock’4, 5, but whether old individuals retain information to reset the clock and, if so, whether this would improve tissue function is not known. Of all the tissues in the body, the central nervous system (CNS) is one of the first to lose regenerative capacity6, 7. Using the eye as a model tissue, we show that expression of Oct4, Sox2, and Klf4 genes (OSK) in mice resets youthful gene expression patterns and the DNA methylation age of retinal ganglion cells, promotes axon regeneration after optic nerve crush injury, and restores vision in a mouse model of glaucoma and in normal old mice. This process, which we call recovery of information via epigenetic reprogramming or REVIVER, requires the DNA demethylases Tet1 and Tet2, indicating that DNA methylation patterns don’t just indicate age, they participate in ageing. Thus, old tissues retain a faithful record of youthful epigenetic information that can be accessed for functional age reversal.
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Old 12th September 2019, 02:23 AM   #117
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Cool.


I would not get bored living forever, bring it on.


More good news:

A diabetes drug promotes brain repairóbut it only works in females
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:11 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post

Good news if you happen to be a female newborn mouse ...
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Old 12th September 2019, 03:26 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Here's a recent study (in mice) that is working on the idea I mentioned earlier of basically resetting old cells to a young state. The genes involved are the three of the four genes (the Yamanaka transcription factors) that are used to take already differentiated adult cells and have them revert to pluripotent stem cells. (using all four genes apparently leads to death within weeks).

Some results were regeneration of crushed optic nerve cells, and old mice recovering vision similar to young mice.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/710210v1.full
Hang on a moment, how come it's the mice that we keep making fitter, healthier and living longer? I think Douglas Adams was onto something....
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Old 12th September 2019, 05:09 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Good news if you happen to be a female newborn mouse ...

You share all of your basic biochemistry and genes with mice.


Why Mouse Matters
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