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Old 11th September 2019, 12:21 PM   #401
pittsburghjoe
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yes it is. You aren't going to shoot something larger in the double slit experiment and get fringes.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:24 PM   #402
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OK, so now we are on the age old question about how many fingers God has. Ten, apparently.
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:26 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
yes it is. You aren't going to shoot something larger in the double slit experiment and get fringes.
You're not? Where does it say that?
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Old 11th September 2019, 01:28 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
OK, so now we are on the age old question about how many fingers God has. Ten, apparently.
I bet nine. After all, his son was a carpenter, I bet God taught shop.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:23 PM   #405
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That's nice, no one has shot me down yet.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:27 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
That's nice, no one has shot me down yet.
All your wounds are self-inflicted, but this is still worth posting:

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Old 11th September 2019, 02:39 PM   #407
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Exclamation A probable "shoot something larger in the double slit experiment" = no fringes lie

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
yes it is. You aren't going to shoot something larger in the double slit experiment and get fringes.
Persist ignorance of the quote button means that this his post has no context but the second sentence looks like a lie.
12 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: A probable "shoot something larger in the double slit experiment" = no fringes lie.

He has been told several times that the double slit experiment has been done with "something larger"
Quote:
The largest entities for which the double-slit experiment has been performed were molecules that each comprised 810 atoms (whose total mass was over 10,000 atomic mass units).[1][2]
  1. 6 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: What does your theory predict for the single electron double slit experiment?
  2. 6 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Quote the single electron double slit experiment part of your original OP.
  3. 6 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Where in your theory are quaternions used (citation or quotation needed) [or say you wasted our time with an irrelevant video]?
  4. 11 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Cite the use of only "waves" in the derivation of the uncertainty principle.
6 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: There is no "abbe diffraction limit of matter".
9 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Repeats ignorance and/or fantasies about the delayed choice quantum eraser.
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: A delusion that random dots are seen in the double slit experiment.
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Deep ignorance about probability in QM and the double slit experiment.
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: More of his ignorant gibberish with no physics or even math !
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: The obvious statement that position and momentum can be found but actually ignorance about his one made up equation !
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Random post with a "I don't need different equations..." delusion (the uncertainty principle he says is wrong is derived from QM equations).
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Ignorance and delusions about a "giant clump" and probability.
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: A "uncertainty principle obviously doesn't consider observed particles" delusion.
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: "before it exists", particle "cares", and "spacetime (observation)" gibberish.
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: QFT gibberish of "deciding to swap to spacetime".
10 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: A "Nature doesn't care if you know which path a particle takes" delusion (double slit experiment says Nature cares!).
11 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Ignorance about the uncertainty principle for particles and Bell's theorem.
11 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: A delusion that particles know what is going to be done on them before they are even created!

Last edited by Reality Check; 11th September 2019 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 02:47 PM   #408
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wow, a whole 810 atoms ..ya don't say ..ohh wait a minute that isn't even close to the abbes diffraction limit

https://sadtrombone.com/

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Old 11th September 2019, 02:58 PM   #409
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Thumbs down An ignorant delusion that the femtosecond has something do with spacetime

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
yes it is. You aren't going to shoot something larger in the double slit experiment and get fringes.
The previous post is the trivial fact from theprestige that the femtosecond is nothing to do spacetime. A femtosecond is just an SI unit of time.

12 October 2019 pittsburghjoe: An ignorant delusion that the femtosecond has something do with spacetime.

There are scales below which we have rational expectations that spacetime is not what it is at larger scales. QM and GR have different smooth spacetimes. Below the Planck length we expect QM fluctuations to affect GR and there to be a different kind of spacetime needed an quantum gravity theory. Likewise describing events at scales below the Planck time need a quantum gravity theory .
Plank time is ~ 5.391 10-44 seconds!
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:00 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
That's nice, no one has shot me down yet.
Something has to get off the ground before it can be shot down.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:07 PM   #411
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Thumbs down Persists with his Abbes diffraction limit for converging light delusion

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
...the abbes diffraction limit
12 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Persists with his Abbes diffraction limit for converging light in a refractive medium delusion.

12 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: A probable "shoot something larger in the double slit experiment" = no fringes lie. is that 810 atom molecules show fringes in the double slit experiment.

The Abbe diffraction limit for a microscope
Quote:
The observation of sub-wavelength structures with microscopes is difficult because of the Abbe diffraction limit. Ernst Abbe found in 1873 that light with wavelength λ, traveling in a medium with refractive index n and converging to a spot with half-angle θ {\displaystyle \theta } \theta will have a minimum resolvable distance of...
The Abbe diffraction limit applies to converging light traveling in a medium with refractive index. The double slit experiment does not have lenses to focus light when photons are used or ever! The double slit experiment is done with electrons, protons ... 810 atom molecules!

Last edited by Reality Check; 11th September 2019 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:10 PM   #412
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well, look what else it happens to apply to.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:14 PM   #413
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Unobserved quantum waves don't use gravity ..they don't have spacetime ..and spacetime is GR.

Last edited by pittsburghjoe; 11th September 2019 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:16 PM   #414
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Thumbs down A stupid demand to do his homework for him

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
well, look what else it happens to apply to.
Replies to 12 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Persists with his Abbes diffraction limit for converging light in a refractive medium delusion. with
12 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: A stupid demand to do his homework for him when the Abbes diffraction limit has been given to him!
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:19 PM   #415
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Thumbs down Persists with delusions about spacetime which is always there for everything

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Unobserved quantum waves don't use gravity ..they don't have spacetime.
12 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Persists with delusions about spacetime which is always there for everything in physics.

ETAL Added "in physics" since his imagination has spacetime doing whatever he imagines ..

Last edited by Reality Check; 11th September 2019 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:26 PM   #416
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We know that you need to learn physics rather than emphasizing ignorance with more posts. That is basic common sense - when digging yourself into a pit, the first thing to do is stop digging!
This is the Abbe diffraction limit for converging light traveling in a medium with refractive index.
This is spacetime.
This is a femtosecond.
This is the double slit experiment done with particles from photons to 810 atom molecules.
This is the uncertainty principle derived from the laws of QM (if it is wrong they are wrong).
This is wave–particle duality.

Last edited by Reality Check; 11th September 2019 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:38 PM   #417
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I intend to set the world on fire.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:39 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
That's nice, no one has shot me down yet.
In order to be shot down you have to first get off the ground.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:41 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
It takes light one femtosecond to travel the width of abbe's diffraction limit. I think I just figured out why the natural divide between the two realms is this size.
So there's something else wrong with this claim: The diffraction limit varies with the wavelength of the light being diffracted, and with the dimensions of the apparatus. But all light travels the same speed. So even though green light of a particular wavelength may have a diffraction limit of ~0.25 micrometers in a numerical aperture of 1, it will still travel ~0.3 micrometers in a femtosecond. At the scales we're talking about, that's a huge discrepancy for your hypothesis.

And that's without considering that you can change the diffraction limit just by changing the aperture of the apparatus, or the wavelength of the light. You could probably get a combination of wavelength and aperture that produced a 0.3 micrometer diffraction limit - the distance light travels in a femtosecond, but that would be artificial, not natural. It also wouldn't really divide between the two realms. That division is already observed to happen at much smaller scales.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:44 PM   #420
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what's the smaller scale size?
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:46 PM   #421
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
what's the smaller scale size?
Nah, mate. I've been helping you out a lot already today. How about you answer one of my questions, for a change?
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:46 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I think Reality Check needs rebooted
I think you need to stop using bluster to cover for the fact that you know absolutely nothing about mathematics or science.

You don't have a theory, as has been pointed out to you in so many ways.

The current mathematics of quantum physics have duality and the uncertainty principle inherent in them. If you want to "kill" either of these things then you have to show the mathematics that you will replace this with.

Without that your theory is non-existent. No-one has shot down your theory for the same reason that no-one has shot down a purple candy-striped flying unicorn.

And even your vague description falls apart because it implies that an electron can join an atom and still have a definite momentum and location. It can't.

You can't just ignore that. How does it swap to wave/particle?
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:49 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I intend to set the world on fire.
I would imagine it might look like that when one is self-immolating.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:52 PM   #424
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An electron can join an atom for the same reason you can use an extra polarizer in the double slit to cause fringes to come back. I explained that the state doesn't change from point A to B ..but when you have a setup that involves a C then it gets interesting. The next set of points get reassesed while it is passing through the polarizer.
The electron is getting a new life/path with it becomes an orbital.
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:55 PM   #425
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
All your wounds are self-inflicted, but this is still worth posting:

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I was going to post that famous video of the Phillips Multiplane falling apart on the runway and hence was never shot down.

I decided it was probably unfair on the memory of Horatio Phillips.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:56 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
An electron can join an atom for the same reason you can use an extra polarizer in the double slit to cause fringes to come back. I explained that the state doesn't change from point A to B ..but when you have a setup that involves a C then it gets interesting. The next set of points get reassesed while it is passing through the polarizer.
The electron is getting a new life/path with it becomes an orbital.
As I said, you don't have a theory.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 11th September 2019, 03:59 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
It takes light one femtosecond to travel the width of abbe's diffraction limit.
That is blatantly wrong, pittsburghjoe. It takes light 1 femtosecond to travel a fixed distance (the speed of light is constant in SR). Abbe's diffraction limit is a variable distance!

Abbe's diffraction limit depends on the wavelength of the light.
Abbe's diffraction limit depends on the size of the spot that the light is converging to.
Abbe's diffraction limit depends on the refractive index of the medium thru which the light is travelling.
For green light in modern optics, Abbe's diffraction limit is ~ 250 nm. You do the math for this specific case.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:04 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
An electron can join an atom for the same reason you can use an extra polarizer in the double slit to cause fringes to come back.
In quantum physics the reason the interference pattern re-emerges is that with the extra polarizer you can no longer tell which slit the photon passed through and so the two paths interfere.

I don't know how you handle this in your theory since you won't tell us.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

Last edited by Robin; 11th September 2019 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:11 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
...The electron is getting a new life/path with it becomes an orbital.
Another lack of understanding about physics - an electron does not "become an orbital".

An atomic orbital is the volume in which an electron can be found when it is bound to an atom. The shapes of atomic orbitals emphasize the wave nature of electrons. They are not an electron as a particle in a classical orbit (which is physically impossible as you should know). They are electrons behaving as 3D waves so the orbitals are shaped like spheres, doughnuts, dumbbells, etc. with combinations. An important feature is that the inner electrons have a finite probability of being inside the nucleus. That allows electron capture decay.
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:24 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
In quantum physics the reason the interference pattern re-emerges is that with the extra polarizer you can no longer tell which slit the photon passed through and so the two paths interfere.

I don't know how you handle this in your theory since you won't tell us.
This is the outdated way of looking at it. I told you nature doesn't care if you know which slit a particle went through. All that matters is the state.

The state gets recycled between detectors when there or more than one in the path.
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:01 PM   #431
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Here is a description from a double slit experiment using polarizers:

Quote:
We now consider the effect of having not only a vertical polarizer in front of slit 1, but also a second polarizer in front of slit 2 ...

... If a= 0, cos θ= 0 or acos θ+b sin θ= 0 then the interference pattern is lost as in these cases, the polarizers allow us to determine which slit the beam passes through.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ith_Polarizers
Note that this works mathematically and experimentally and all of the mathematics depend upon the wave and the particle properties of the photon, with or without the interference pattern.

Your idea of a physical particle passing through a polarizer and "reassessing" and becoming a wave does not work for reasons that should be obvious.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:08 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
The state gets recycled between detectors when there or more than one in the path.
I think we both know that this statement means exactly nothing.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:09 PM   #433
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Your quote is for a normal double slit setup. I'm talking about an additional polarizer down the path.
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:13 PM   #434
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Show us the maths.
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:25 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Your quote is for a normal double slit setup. I'm talking about an additional polarizer down the path.
Quote:
However, if a device is used to alter the beam so that its polarization cannot be determined, then measuring the circular polarization of the photons emerging from the double slits no longer serves to determine which slit the beam passed through and the interference pattern is restored.
Same thing.

It is a standard part of quantum physics that if there are alternatives ways an event could happen:

- If you would be able to distinguish which of the alternatives occurred, you find the probability by the sum the probabilities for each event.

- If you would not be able to distinguish which of the alternatives occurred, you find the probability by first finding the sum of the amplitudes and then deriving the probability from that sum (which results in the interference).
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:26 PM   #436
Robin
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Show us the maths
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The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:41 PM   #437
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I've given you the answer to the problem. You have to work back from it to get the math. This isn't my field, I'm a code writer. I suggest you make your friend read this entire thread and see if she can derive an equation from it.
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:49 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I've given you the answer to the problem....
You have given us no answer to any problem. There is no problem with the uncertainty principle - it is textbook physics. There is no problem with the double slit experiment - it is explained by textbook physics. Etc.

Fantasies that do not understand the uncertainty principle or double slit experiment or spacetime or Abbe's diffraction limit or the femtosecond are not an answer to anything. There is no way to derive math from stories that you cannot even communicate clearly and even seem to make up as you go.

Last edited by Reality Check; 11th September 2019 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:52 PM   #439
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I intend to set the world on fire.
Too late! Someone beat you to it...

the Arctic Is on Fire
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:53 PM   #440
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The problem I answered is "Where is the bridge between large and small?"

Last edited by pittsburghjoe; 11th September 2019 at 05:54 PM.
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