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Old 8th September 2019, 06:40 PM   #121
Robin
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
The double slits only cause fringes. If there isn't polarizers in place, they will remain waves while traveling.
So, under your theory and there are slits in place, the particle isn't a wave when travelling.

So if there is the double slit in place there could be no interference pattern because the particle has already been swapped to physical/spacetime because of the 'detector' in the path? Right.

So your theory predicts that if there is a detector in place the particle will have no wave properties and there will be no interference pattern.

Right?
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Old 8th September 2019, 06:42 PM   #122
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Thumbs down "polarizers at the slits are detectors" ignorance

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
polarizers at the slits are detectors.
9 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: "polarizers at the slits are detectors" ignorance.

No measurements are made and communicated to humans (your definition!) with polarizers at any slits so they are not detectors.
Ignorance about the delayed-choice quantum eraser which does not have polarizers at double slits. The simple version has no double slits at all ! The experiment of Kim et al. (1999) had a source where the photons first passed 1 at a time thru a double slit. The photons then went thru a single nonlinear optical crystal BBO. That converted each photon into 2 entangled, polarized photons.
ETA: Actually learn about the experiment of Kim et al. - there are 4 detectors clearly marked in the diagram in the article. None of the detectors is a polarizer or a prism or a beam splitter or a coincidence counter.

Last edited by Reality Check; 8th September 2019 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 8th September 2019, 06:43 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I'm not reinventing the double slit here.
You are completely reinventing it.

For example I cannot see your term "tombstone" anywhere in the standard QM mathematisations of the experiment.

You need to provide your technical definition of that. Do electrons die?
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Old 8th September 2019, 06:47 PM   #124
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What you are saying is that something might be a detector, even if it detects nothing.

But if something detects the particle, then it might not be a detector.

That is pretty much reinventing the experiment right there.
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Old 8th September 2019, 06:48 PM   #125
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Yes, that's what it predicts.

I'm reinventing duality and uncertainty. We just haven't been looking at the double slit from the correct angle.
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Old 8th September 2019, 06:49 PM   #126
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Let's not lose sight of the fact that quantum physics is literally made of mathematics. Until you can provide a solid mathematical underpinning for your alternative, it's nothing more than just-so stories.
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Old 8th September 2019, 06:56 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
The double slits only cause fringes. If there isn't polarizers in place, they will remain waves while traveling..
Also, they remain waves while travelling whether or not the double slits are in place.

If they were not waves then there would be no interference pattern.

Also, there the presence of the double slits does not guarantee an interference pattern, (which is the whole point of the experiment).

If you have a detector near the double slits, that can tell you which slit it passed through, the interference pattern disappears and you get two "clumps" as you call them.

If your theory calls the double slits by themselves a "detector" then it can't make any distinction between the detector that causes the interference pattern to disappear and the slits themselves and thus cannot explain the double slit experiment.

All the patterns that are detected on the back panel are a function of the wave properties of the electron.

There is no configuration of the experiment (including leaving the double slit screen out altogether) in which the electron does not complete its journey as a wave.
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Old 8th September 2019, 06:58 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Yes, that's what it predicts.

I'm reinventing duality and uncertainty. We just haven't been looking at the double slit from the correct angle.
So you are confirming that your theory predicts that in the double slit experiment there will be no interference pattern if there is just the electron gun, the double slits and the back panel?

That is certainly a bold prediction, but I believe that the experiments have, to date, shown an interference pattern in that case.
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Old 8th September 2019, 06:59 PM   #129
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I never said the double slits act as a detector ..its only after you add opposite polarizers to each slit do you have a detector.
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:00 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Let's not lose sight of the fact that quantum physics is literally made of mathematics. Until you can provide a solid mathematical underpinning for your alternative, it's nothing more than just-so stories.
Just-so stories have a certain internal consistency.
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:03 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I never said the double slits act as a detector ..its only after you add opposite polarizers to each slit do you have a detector.
OK, then you should have corrected me sooner.

So if there are opposite polarizers then the particle will be swapped to physical and there should be no pattern on the back panel due to the wave properties of the electron.

Do I have it right now?
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:04 PM   #132
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yes, they are swapped before they even start moving.
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:07 PM   #133
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You should know that if there is any kind of detector that allows us to see which slit the particle passed through then the pattern on the back panel is still due to the wave properties of the electron.
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:08 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
yes, they are swapped before they even start moving.
So your theory predicts that if there is a detector that allows us to see which slit the particle passed through, then the pattern built up on the back plane would not be due to the wave properties of the electron?

Do I have the prediction right now?
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:14 PM   #135
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What? You can't get wave information from clumps.
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:15 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
What? You can't get wave information from clumps.
So you don't think that the 'clumps' are due to the wave properties of the electron?

Can you confirm explicitly that your theory predicts that if there is a detector that allows us to see which slit the particle passed through, then the pattern built up on the back plane would not be due to the wave properties of the electron?
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:19 PM   #137
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Why wouldn't every theory predict this?
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:21 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Why wouldn't every theory predict this?
Can you confirm explicitly that your theory predicts that if there is a detector that allows us to see which slit the particle passed through, then the pattern built up on the back plane would not be due to the wave properties of the electron?
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:26 PM   #139
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yeah, it's ahhh, common sense? I said current quantum experiments support my claims.
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:32 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
yeah, it's ahhh, common sense? I said current quantum experiments support my claims.
It is? It does?

Can you point me to the mathematics that describes the shape of the pattern on the back plane when there is a detector showing which slit the particle passes through?

Just a rough outline of it will do.
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:39 PM   #141
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Observed particles travel like little bullets
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:40 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
yeah, it's ahhh, common sense? I said current quantum experiments support my claims.
Would you then agree that if the shape of the pattern on the back plane when there is a detector showing which slit the particle passes through is due to the wave properties of the electron then your theory must be wrong?
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:42 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Observed particles travel like little bullets
No, particles that are observed during their path behave like waves with intermediate probabilities.
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:43 PM   #144
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yes
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:44 PM   #145
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You got your facts mixed up
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:45 PM   #146
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Without the detector that tells you which slit the particle you sum the waves as interfering with each other, with that detector you do a simple sum of the waves. Waves in either case.
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:46 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
You got your facts mixed up
Certainly one of us has our facts mixed up.
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:47 PM   #148
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But lets leave aside which one of us has our facts mixed up.

Would you agree that if the shape of the pattern on the back plane when there is a detector showing which slit the particle passes through is due to the wave properties of the electron then your theory must be wrong?

(Edit, was the earlier "Yes" to this question?)
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Old 8th September 2019, 07:54 PM   #149
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yes
but you don't have proof of this.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:04 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Observed particles travel like little bullets
Still wrong, pittsburghjoe.
Macroscopic particles travel like little bullets because they are literally bullets
The physical evidence is that quantum particles travel like waves and like particles: Wave/particle duality
Observed particles such as electrons, neutrons, protons, C60 fullerenes, tetraphenylporphyrin (a large molecule) passing through a double slit behave as waves.

6 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: What does your theory predict for the single electron double slit experiment?
6 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Quote the single electron double slit experiment part of your original OP.
6 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Where in your theory are quaternions used (citation or quotation needed) [or say you wasted our time with an irrelevant video]?
9 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Repeats ignorance and/or fantasies about the delayed choice quantum eraser.
9 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Quantum observation non-science - an observation at any place is an observation, e.g. electrons at a screen!
9 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: An ignorant "entangled particle" statement and a signaling fantasy.
9 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Partial ignorance about a detector in physics.
9 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: "polarizers at the slits are detectors" ignorance.

Last edited by Reality Check; 8th September 2019 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:06 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
yes
but you don't have proof of this.
Can you give me your account of how that pattern is described mathematically?
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:08 PM   #152
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Observed particles do not travel as waves. Get it through your head that the final panel doesn't count.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:18 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Observed particles do not travel as waves. Get it through your head that the final panel doesn't count.
I know that is what you claim.

I say that particles that are observed mid path travel as waves where the final amplitude depends upon an intermediate amplitude.

One of us is wrong, clearly.

But since you are the expert, please give me your mathematical account of the shape of the pattern built up by electrons on the back plane of the experiment where there is a detector to tell us which slit the electron passed through.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:22 PM   #154
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That wasn't directed at you.
You want a mathematical account of a bullet traveling. There isn't a model necessary for this.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:28 PM   #155
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...you do know that a mathematical account of a bullet travelling does exist, right?
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:29 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
That wasn't directed at you.
You want a mathematical account of a bullet traveling. There isn't a model necessary for this.
Even if it were just a bullet travelling it would need a model.

But I asked for a mathematical account of the shape of the pattern that builds up on the back plane in the double slit experiment where there is a detector that allows us to know which slit the electron passes through.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:33 PM   #157
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Thumbs down Persists with ignorance about the double silt experiment and a "final panel" fantasy

Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Observed particles do not travel as waves. Get it through your head that the final panel doesn't count.
Usual ignorance not directed at anyone. You need to use the quote function.

9 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: Persists with ignorance about the double silt experiment and a "final panel" fantasy.
Observed particles such as electrons, neutrons, protons, C60 fullerenes, tetraphenylporphyrin (a large molecule) passing through a double slit behave as waves.

Last edited by Reality Check; 8th September 2019 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:34 PM   #158
pittsburghjoe
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the trajectory of particles from the gun are randomized on purpose.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:37 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
the trajectory of particles from the gun are randomized on purpose.
So what? That is a basic part of the double slit experiment. The source can spew out particles in all directions. We only detect those that go through the slits.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:51 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
the trajectory of particles from the gun are randomized on purpose.
Can you answer my question or can't you?

If not, can you describe one of the ways that a mainstream physicist would describe that pattern mathematically?
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