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Old 6th September 2019, 11:20 AM   #1
dudalb
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GOP leaders move to cancel primaries to support Trump...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/06/polit...ump/index.html

And The GOP removes all doubt...it has become a Authoriatarian Party which has abandoned all Traditional Ideas of Democracy In the US.
I wait for the GOpers here to defend this caving in to One Man Rule.
They have become totally corrupted by power, and will throw away all the principals they say they support in order to keep it.
All Hail Dear Leader!
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:22 AM   #2
theprestige
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/06/polit...ump/index.html

And The GOP removes all doubt...it has become a Authoriatarian Party which has abandoned all Traditional Ideas of Democracy In the US.
I wait for the GOpers here to defend this caving in to One Man Rule.
From your link:
It is not unprecedented for state Republicans or Democrats to decide not to hold a presidential primary when an incumbent is running essentially uncontested. In South Carolina, a key early primary state, Republicans decided to nix their presidential primaries in 1984 and 2004, when Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush were up for their second terms; while state Democrats skipped their contests in 1996 and 2012, with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama running for reelection, respectively.
HTH. HAND!
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:27 AM   #3
ahhell
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
From your link:
It is not unprecedented for state Republicans or Democrats to decide not to hold a presidential primary when an incumbent is running essentially uncontested. In South Carolina, a key early primary state, Republicans decided to nix their presidential primaries in 1984 and 2004, when Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush were up for their second terms; while state Democrats skipped their contests in 1996 and 2012, with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama running for reelection, respectively.
HTH. HAND!
Well done sir. To be fair, it was buried in like the fourth paragraph. You can't expect people to read that far into an article.

Last edited by ahhell; 6th September 2019 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:31 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
From your link:
It is not unprecedented for state Republicans or Democrats to decide not to hold a presidential primary when an incumbent is running essentially uncontested. In South Carolina, a key early primary state, Republicans decided to nix their presidential primaries in 1984 and 2004, when Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush were up for their second terms; while state Democrats skipped their contests in 1996 and 2012, with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama running for reelection, respectively.
HTH. HAND!
Weren't there 2 or 3 people running against Trump? That Walsh fella, and another one?

I wonder what the thresh hold for "essentially uncontested" is? I don't care about this either since I have no horse in this race. Just a thought.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:32 AM   #5
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Even having a primary when your party is holding the incumbent position seems even less useful then normal primaries, and they are already pretty low on the "And the point here is?" scale for me.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:34 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/06/polit...ump/index.html

And The GOP removes all doubt...it has become a Authoriatarian Party which has abandoned all Traditional Ideas of Democracy In the US.
I wait for the GOpers here to defend this caving in to One Man Rule.
They have become totally corrupted by power, and will throw away all the principals they say they support in order to keep it.
All Hail Dear Leader!
I was really hoping the thread was a joke.

Not that the GOP is obliged to have primaries. It didn't use to, but this just serves to confirm that the Republican Party is on the verge of no longer being a political party, but a part of the Trump organisation.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:35 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
From your link:
It is not unprecedented for state Republicans or Democrats to decide not to hold a presidential primary when an incumbent is running essentially uncontested. In South Carolina, a key early primary state, Republicans decided to nix their presidential primaries in 1984 and 2004, when Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush were up for their second terms; while state Democrats skipped their contests in 1996 and 2012, with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama running for reelection, respectively.
HTH. HAND!
Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:37 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Two wrongs don't make a right.
On the other hand, something practiced by both parties over several decades probably doesn't merit the freakout you and dudalb are indulging in.

That said, I don't think it's wrong.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:46 AM   #9
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Did Obama, Clinton, or Bush have any announced competition?
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:54 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
From your link:
It is not unprecedented for state Republicans or Democrats to decide not to hold a presidential primary when an incumbent is running essentially uncontested. In South Carolina, a key early primary state, Republicans decided to nix their presidential primaries in 1984 and 2004, when Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush were up for their second terms; while state Democrats skipped their contests in 1996 and 2012, with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama running for reelection, respectively.
HTH. HAND!
You highlighted the wrong part. What you should make note of is:
Quote:
It is not unprecedented for state Republicans or Democrats to decide not to hold a presidential primary when an incumbent is running essentially uncontested.
The article goes on the note that this isn’t the case this time and that there are several candidates interested in running against Trump.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:55 AM   #11
theprestige
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Did Obama, Clinton, or Bush have any announced competition?
Obama:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_D...ial_candidates

Clinton:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_D...ies#Candidates

Bush:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_R...ies#Candidates

You're welcome.
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Old 6th September 2019, 11:59 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
You highlighted the wrong part. What you should make note of is:


The article goes on the note that this isn’t the case this time and that there are several candidates interested in running against Trump.
It wasn't the case the other times, either. CNN is lying to you. Really, the weasel wording of "essentially uncontested" should have tipped you off.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:08 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On the other hand, something practiced by both parties over several decades probably doesn't merit the freakout you and dudalb are indulging in.

That said, I don't think it's wrong.
I don't think it's wrong. It's troubling.

But the comparison you make assumes that this is all in a vacuum. In reality, the GOP has made other moves to become the Party of Trump, so it's not exactly the same thing.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:13 PM   #14
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Joe Walsh needs to destroy Trump.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:14 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
You highlighted the wrong part. What you should make note of is:


The article goes on the note that this isn’t the case this time and that there are several candidates interested in running against Trump.
What's the difference between uncontested and "essentially" uncontested?

Were the Obama-challengers lacking in some essential quality which rendered them functionally non-existent?
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:14 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What's the difference between uncontested and "essentially" uncontested?
The second's not uncontested.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:16 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The second's not uncontested.
"Not uncontested" = "contested", yes?
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:16 PM   #18
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I see one of our die hard Republicans now apparently no longer believes in the rights of the party members to choose a candidate. And, surprise, he goes to the "Whattabout" card to defend it.
I think the Dems were wrong to do it in the cases cited, and the GOP is wrong to do it now.
But then the Dems he cited were not authrotorians like Trump is.
The GOP and its lickspittle supporters digust me frankly.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:18 PM   #19
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It is true that other primaries (both Republican and Democratic) have been cancelled when their is an incumbent president.

I think the difference here is that Trump is so... toxic. The Mueller report suggests a willingness to cheat the election with Russia. The Stormy Daniels payout might be considered an illegal campaign contribution. You have emoluments lawsuits, shoddy handling of security, now Sharpie-gate (which might point to another illegal activity.)

Yet with all those legal concerns, the republicans want to be linked to Stubby McBonespurs.

Also, what exactly does that due to Trump's image as an 'outsider'? Hard to say that you're not part of the establishment when you've got such control over the party that they are basically proclaiming you leader.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:19 PM   #20
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And it's time for a couple of the fence sitters here to make up their minds. Remember who the hottest places in hell are reserved for.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:20 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see one of our die hard Republicans now apparently no longer believes in the rights of the party members to choose a candidate. And, surprise, he goes to the "Whattabout" card to defend it.
I think the Dems were wrong to do it in the cases cited, and the GOP is wrong to do it now.
But then the Dems he cited were not authrotorians like Trump is.
The GOP and its lickspittle supporters digust me frankly.
The Dems don't play clean either. They made up their mind that Hillary was going to be the candidate no matter what (not that I disagree with it) over Bernie. As shown above they've practiced this a few times as well.

It makes sense to me. If you're the incumbent then save your energy, funds, and ideas for the main fight. No sense in messing around before hand.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:20 PM   #22
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Republicans no now longer really believe in democracy. A major party has gone authoritarisn.
NOW do some of you get why I break with the liberals when it comes to gun ownership?
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:21 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see one of our die hard Republicans now apparently no longer believes in the rights of the party members to choose a candidate.
Neither of the parties are going to allow a primary challenge to a reasonably popular sitting president from their party.

This is really not new, and the reasons aren't secret.

Quote:
And, surprise, he goes to the "Whattabout" card to defend it.
That this is standard MO is a very valid point, not mindless whatabouting.

Quote:
I think the Dems were wrong to do it in the cases cited, and the GOP is wrong to do it now.
I'm not sure it would have been better to have allowed a primary of Obama in 2012.
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Last edited by kellyb; 6th September 2019 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:22 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The Dems don't play clean either. They made up their mind that Hillary was going to be the candidate no matter what (not that I disagree with it). As shown above they've practiced this a few times as well.

It makes sense to me. If you're the incumbent then save your energy, funds, and ideas for the main fight. No sense in messing around before hand.
But at least the Dems did not cancel a primary for Hillary. You had the chance to vote against her.
If you don't see the difference between this and what the GOP is doing, you are hopeless.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:22 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see one of our die hard Republicans now apparently no longer believes in the rights of the party members to choose a candidate. And, surprise, he goes to the "Whattabout" card to defend it.
I think the Dems were wrong to do it in the cases cited, and the GOP is wrong to do it now.
But then the Dems he cited were not authrotorians like Trump is.
The GOP and its lickspittle supporters digust me frankly.
Special pleading.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:24 PM   #26
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The Resistance™ cult seems to expect sane people to join in to their lying cheating obfuscating games because it's necessary to get rid of Trump who is lying cheating obfuscating.

Not a winning strategy I would think.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:25 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Republicans no now longer really believe in democracy. A major party has gone authoritarisn.
NOW do some of you get why I break with the liberals when it comes to gun ownership?
You're against common-sense gun control measures because the GOP is not wanting to suffer the damage to the party overall which would be the result of allowing a primary challenge to their sitting president, just like the democrats have also decided to do for decades? lol
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:25 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Republicans no now longer really believe in democracy. A major party has gone authoritarisn.
NOW do some of you get why I break with the liberals when it comes to gun ownership?
This is unhinged.

Even after your own source acknowledged the Democrats did the same thing with Obama in 2012, and even though Obama had several contestants in that primary, you're still committing to this bogus narrative.

Why?
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:26 PM   #29
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Do you think party voters should have a chance to vote on their candiates or not?
It's is really that simple.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:28 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The Dems don't play clean either. They made up their mind that Hillary was going to be the candidate no matter what (not that I disagree with it) over Bernie.
Except of course they didn't.

Some of the the higher-ups in the party may have expressed a preference for Clinton, but there's no evidence that they took any significant action to skew the results in her favor.

Clinton was a long time democrat (along with whatever party contacts that provides) with greater name recognition than Sanders. The fact that Sanders (someone who wasn't even a member of the party prior to his run) did as well as he did is the surprising bit.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:28 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Neither of the parties are going to allow a primary challenge to a reasonably popular sitting president from their party.

This is really not new, and the reasons aren't secret.



That this is standard MO is a very valid point, not mindless whatabouting.



I'm not sure it would have been better to have allowed a primary of Obama in 2012.
Several states did hold Dem primaries in 2012. Just not all of them. Because they had an incumbent, and primaries cost money.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:33 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Do you think party voters should have a chance to vote on their candiates or not?
It's is really that simple.
If I were a member of "the establishment" with either party, I'd have to vote "NOPE!" unless there was some "even more extreme than Trump" type of extenuating circumstance.

Allowing a primary challenge to a sitting president is really bad for the entire party. I actually looked into this back around 2012 where there were talks of primarying Obama. It would have made a Romney win much more likely, and have hurt the democrats in the congressional races, as well.

When you pair that with it all being completely pointless, because the sitting president is definitely going to win the primary anyway, it's a knowing move to sabotage your candidate in the general to allow the primary.

It's just...how it is.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:37 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Except of course they didn't.

Some of the the higher-ups in the party may have expressed a preference for Clinton, but there's no evidence that they took any significant action to skew the results in her favor.

Clinton was a long time democrat (along with whatever party contacts that provides) with greater name recognition than Sanders. The fact that Sanders (someone who wasn't even a member of the party prior to his run) did as well as he did is the surprising bit.
What part of 'But you could still vote against Hillary in the primaries" don't some people here understand?

I get a sick feeling that if Biden of Warren win, the Berniebots will pull the same crap they did in 2016. I think the Bernie movement has become as much of a Personality cult as the Trump movment..just with a different styler, that's all.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:38 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
If I were a member of "the establishment" with either party, I'd have vote "NOPE!" unless there was some "even more extreme than Trump" type of extenuating circumstance.

Allowing a primary challenge to a sitting president is really bad for the entire party. I actually looked into this back around 2012 where there were talks of primarying Obama. It would have made a Romney win much more likely, and have hurt the democrats in the congressional races, as well.

When you pair that with it all being completely pointless, because the sitting president is definitely going to win the primary anyway, it's a knowing move to sabotage your candidate in the general to allow the primary.

It's just...how it is.
I see the whole idea of "democracy means you have the right to vote for whom you want, even if he or she has zero chance of winning" seems to elude you.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:41 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What part of 'But you could still vote against Hillary in the primaries" don't some people here understand?
What part of 'But you couldn't vote against Obama in the primaries' do you not understand?
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:45 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see the whole idea of "democracy means you have the right to vote for whom you want, even if he or she has zero chance of winning" seems to elude you.
No, you just don't seem to understand that in a system with political parties, the internal decisions made by party officials on behalf of the party as a whole, might not align with your individual preferences.

Personally, I'd prefer to ban political parties as well as move toward more direct democracy, but that ain't the country we live in.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:52 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What part of 'But you couldn't vote against Obama in the primaries' do you not understand?
Obama was not a toxic authoriatain like Trump is. but I stated I thought the Dems were wrong in what they did.
But go on with your "whattaboutsim", It's just about all you Trumpers have left, since you don't even try very hard to support what he actually says of does.
I am now convinced that Democracy is expendable to Trump supporters. All that matters is the continued rule of Dear Leader.
And Obama never had the dictorial rule over the Dems that Trump had over the GOP. But then dictatorship does not seem to bother you..as long as it is of the right kind...
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:53 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But at least the Dems did not cancel a primary for Hillary. You had the chance to vote against her.
If you don't see the difference between this and what the GOP is doing, you are hopeless.
The point being is that those votes would have been all but useless. The Dem primaries are largely decided by super delegates.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Except of course they didn't.

Some of the the higher-ups in the party may have expressed a preference for Clinton, but there's no evidence that they took any significant action to skew the results in her favor.

Clinton was a long time democrat (along with whatever party contacts that provides) with greater name recognition than Sanders. The fact that Sanders (someone who wasn't even a member of the party prior to his run) did as well as he did is the surprising bit.
I didn't say they skewed anything, they didn't have to. The super delegates all but decide the primary.
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Last edited by plague311; 6th September 2019 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:53 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
No, you just don't seem to understand that in a system with political parties, the internal decisions made by party officials on behalf of the party as a whole, might not align with your individual preferences.

Personally, I'd prefer to ban political parties as well as move toward more direct democracy, but that ain't the country we live in.
Living in another reality, I see.

And government by referendum works really great;just look at how well it worked in the UK....
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Old 6th September 2019, 12:54 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Sad to say, the prestige has one point:A number of "Progressives" in this thread seem not to grasp the idea of democracy either.
Some people are so politically blinded they'll bitch about absolutely anything and everything just for the sake of making white noise. Get over yourself. You're no more a patriot for democracy than I am.
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