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Old 8th September 2019, 08:42 PM   #81
Brainster
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
An odd reasoning given Trump’s multiple infidelities.

I thought Trump was super-popular within the party. Why does hardball need to be played like this instead of letting things just run their course?
I certainly don't support Trump because of his infidelities. I think they are stains on his character, as the were with Clinton. But at least as far as that goes, it seems to be in the past with Trump. Part of that is age--although Clinton and Trump were both born the same year, Trump came into the Oval Office 24 years later.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:51 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I certainly don't support Trump because of his infidelities. I think they are stains on his character, as the were with Clinton. But at least as far as that goes, it seems to be in the past with Trump. Part of that is age--although Clinton and Trump were both born the same year, Trump came into the Oval Office 24 years later.

LMFAO!! And thank God infidelity is the only stain on Trump's character.
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Old 9th September 2019, 12:21 AM   #83
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Let's keep in mind that Trump is no Republican - never was, never will be.
He came in as an outsider, and still runs his campaign as a outsider, just letting the GOP pick up his tab and clean his dirty underwear.
But Trump has no loyalty to the party and won't support anyone who doesn't actively support him.

In light of this, not having an actual Party Candidate is a clear sign that the GOP as a party doesn't exits anymore - it's up for grabs by whoever can get elected.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:06 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I certainly don't support Trump because of his infidelities. I think they are stains on his character, as the were with Clinton. But at least as far as that goes, it seems to be in the past with Trump. Part of that is age--although Clinton and Trump were both born the same year, Trump came into the Oval Office 24 years later.
Clinton? Why did you bring him up?

I mean, I know why you did, but I want to hear you say it.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:40 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Clinton? Why did you bring him up?

I mean, I know why you did, but I want to hear you say it.
It's the perfect analogy, presidents whose character were seriously flawed yet remained popular anyway.

Personally I am happy to say I did not vote for either of those two scumbags largely because neither had any character or ethics. (and I did vote in those elections).

But hey, politicians without any character is almost a job requirement. It's certainly nothing new. Practically a meme.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:45 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
It's the perfect analogy, presidents whose character were seriously flawed yet remained popular anyway.
But that means it's a bad analogy. Trump isn't popular. He's pretty much the least popular President you guys ever had.


Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Personally I am happy to say I did not vote for either of those two scumbags largely because neither had any character or ethics. (and I did vote in those elections).

But hey, politicians without any character is almost a job requirement. It's certainly nothing new. Practically a meme.
I disagree. The amount of corruption that is plainly visible now is something new.
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:25 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
But that means it's a bad analogy. Trump isn't popular. He's pretty much the least popular President you guys ever had.




I disagree. The amount of corruption that is plainly visible now is something new.
I wonder if these fools think that the "all politicians are corrupt" line actually will trick people into thinking Trump isn't all that bad.
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:05 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It wasn't the case the other times
Is just another one of those things you repeat because you really really want to believe, or do you have an actual case to make?
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
CNN is lying to you. Really, the weasel wording of "essentially uncontested" should have tipped you off.
Says the guy who buys into anything the loons in far right press tells him to believe.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Really, the weasel wording of "essentially uncontested" should have tipped you off.
There is a meaningful distinction between someone else is running and there are legitimate challengers. Trying to equate them only makes you look dishonest, it’s not a real argument.
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:15 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I certainly don't support Trump because of his infidelities. I think they are stains on his character, as the were with Clinton. But at least as far as that goes, it seems to be in the past with Trump.
Why would you think that? At best you can argue that he'd have difficulty following though, but there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest he's undergone some fundamental change to his attitude and approach towards women.

For the record I could care less about Trumps infidelities, so long as he's not using his power to push them into something they don't want to do. Otherwise it's something he needs to sort out with his wife. I'm even fine with him paying women for sex, so long as they are consenting adults and he actually pays what he owes.
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:30 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Tell me, besides Sanders' whining about the debate schedule and one ignorant email about a debate question that was a no brainer in the first place* just what did the Party do to make Clinton the candidate?
I know this is going to be the equivalent of screaming into the void, but just for the sake of argument. Several of the superdelegates had made up their mind early in the process, which is rumored to have helped other delegates and voters view her as a clear favorite. it's mentioned in this article:

Quote:
Still, many superdelegates had declared their loyalty early in the process – even before primary season began – allowing Clinton to claim the mantle of a prohibitive favorite.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Individuals in the Party that supported Clinton personally does not count as the same thing unless you can show what actions they specifically took. And no super-delegate votes impacted the outcome.
Well, I guess if you're claiming it to be fact, then everyone else should just shut up and assume you're right. Either way, it caused enough of a bad taste in people's mouths to have the entire thing changed.

Quote:
After two years of sometimes ugly public fighting, Democratic party leaders on Saturday voted to limit their own high-profile roles in choosing presidential nominees, giving even more weight to the outcome of state primaries and caucuses
I believe that Clinton rightfully won the primary, and have never implied anything really differently. That doesn't mean I can't notice that superdelegates have played a role in helping that along. Not everything has to be all or nothing. There actually are shades of grey, and I know you and Hillary are like....besties or something, but seriously. The DNC favored her, rightfully so as Bernie only runs as a Dem when it helps him, and I have no issue with it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes, there are a few hardcore Burners in this forum.
Of which I never have been nor will I ever be.
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:31 AM   #91
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*Head desk* If you don't want someone telling you, yes telling you not asking you, who to vote for, why are you a member of a political party?

Political parties don't need us to tell them who the nominee should be. If we already know who we want to vote for... we don't need them.
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Old 9th September 2019, 10:30 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Head desk* If you don't want someone telling you, yes telling you not asking you, who to vote for, why are you a member of a political party?
To have a hand/say in the candidates the party runs, is a primary reason.

Quote:
Political parties don't need us to tell them who the nominee should be.
What do you think the purpose of primaries is?

Quote:
If we already know who we want to vote for... we don't need them.
Yeah, that's why independents almost always beat democrats and republicans. LOL
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Old 9th September 2019, 10:57 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What do you think the purpose of primaries is?
For the party leadership to tell the ground level members who they are running while trying to maintain an illusion that it's the other way around because that's an easier sell.

People really think the primaries are the ~44,000,000 registered Democrats telling the ~3,700 members of the Democratic National Convention who the nominee is gonna be and not the other way around don't they?
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:02 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
For the party leadership to tell the ground level members who they are running while trying to maintain an illusion that it's the other way around because that's an easier sell.

People really think the primaries are the ~44,000,000 registered Democrats telling the ~3,700 members of the Democratic National Convention who the nominee is gonna be and not the other way around don't they?
Locally, we have a lot of really close races for house rep, state senate, etc.

Do you think all those are illusion-hawking, too?

ETA:
And do you think the GOP leadership and "insiders" are really the ones who picked Trump, and the republican primary was just them trying "to tell the ground level members who they are running while trying to maintain an illusion that it's the other way around"?
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Last edited by kellyb; 9th September 2019 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:10 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Locally, we have a lot of really close races for house rep, state senate, etc.

Do you think all those are illusion-hawking, too?

ETA:
And do you think the GOP leadership and "insiders" are really the ones who picked Trump, and the republican primary was just them trying "to tell the ground level members who they are running while trying to maintain an illusion that it's the other way around"?
As stated many times Trump is not a good example of anything. He's broken every system he's ever been a part of.

To the broader question all things being equal it's certainly easier for a political party to go with the most popular candidate, I mean everything just goes better when the both the boss and the cubicle farm workers want the same thing, but that's not the same thing as the boss being controlled by the workers.

The GOP and the Democratic Party are not egalitarian social clubs where everybody has equal say, they are hierarchical organizations with leadership where decision flow down, not up.
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:16 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
As stated many times Trump is not a good example of anything. He's broken every system he's ever been a part of.

To the broader question all things being equal it's certainly easier for a political party to go with the most popular candidate, I mean everything just goes better when the both the boss and the cubicle farm workers want the same thing, but that's not the same thing as the boss being controlled by the workers.

The GOP and the Democratic Party are not egalitarian social clubs where everybody has equal say, they are hierarchical organizations with leadership where decision flow down, not up.
Do you think your local races for state senate and house, etc are just illusion-hawking, too?
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:22 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Do you think your local races for state senate and house, etc are just illusion-hawking, too?
Somewhat. They are only about "the will of the people" as long as the will aligns (or can be align) with the best interest of the party.

Again usually this isn't an issue because those two things generally align, the problem comes when they don't and all of a sudden the ground level people start acting like they were betrayed or that the system was rigged or that someone wrong happened.

Long story short when Party Leadership asks (g)you "Should we run Candidate So & So" they are asking your opinion, not your permission.
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:28 AM   #98
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The Republican party is doing everything it can to stop Mark Sanford, running on the traditional conservative issue of vigorously opposing deficit spending, in favor of Trump, who has exploded the debt. It's a perfect illustration of how the Republican party has been captured by Trumpism.
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:36 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Long story short when Party Leadership asks (g)you "Should we run Candidate So & So" they are asking your opinion, not your permission.
It seems to me like Party leadership is split half the time, too. The local intra-party wars are brutal.
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:41 AM   #100
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If the rumors of Trump's accelerating decline are true, the Republicans may well need to find another potential candidate. I'm not saying Trump's had a stroke, but if he's practicing for the role of a stroke victim in a play he's nailing the performance.
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:43 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The Republican party is doing everything it can to stop Mark Sanford, running on the traditional conservative issue of vigorously opposing deficit spending, in favor of Trump, who has exploded the debt. It's a perfect illustration of how the Republican party has been captured by Trumpism.
Nonsense, to quote Chenney "Deficits don't matter". That was only ever something to use against democrats not any kind of principle.
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:46 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The Republican party is doing everything it can to stop Mark Sanford, running on the traditional conservative issue of vigorously opposing deficit spending, in favor of Trump, who has exploded the debt. It's a perfect illustration of how the Republican party has been captured by Trumpism.
Republican leadership has never, ever had a problem with the debt and deficit spending. They actually crank it up on purpose when in office to justify cutting the "socialist" safety net.
It's been like this since the 80's.

NYT, 1985:
https://www.nytimes.com/1985/07/19/o...e-deficit.html

Quote:
But, Dr. von Hayek continued, ''You see, one of Reagan's advisers told me why the President has permitted that to happen, which makes the matter partly excusable: Reagan thinks it is impossible to persuade Congress that expenditures must be reduced unless one creates deficits so large that absolutely everyone becomes convinced that no more money can be spent.''

Thus, the economist said, Mr. Reagan ''hopes to persuade Congress of the necessity of spending reductions by means of an immense deficit.
The "Dr. von Hayek" quoted there is Darth Fiscal Conservativism himself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedr...d_conservatism
Quote:
Hayek received new attention in the 1980s and 1990s with the rise of conservative governments in the United States, United Kingdom and Canada. After winning the 1979 United Kingdom general election, Margaret Thatcher appointed Keith Joseph, the director of the Hayekian Centre for Policy Studies, as her secretary of state for industry in an effort to redirect parliament's economic strategies. Likewise, David Stockman, Ronald Reagan's most influential financial official in 1981, was an acknowledged follower of Hayek.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:00 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I know this is going to be the equivalent of screaming into the void, but just for the sake of argument. Several of the superdelegates had made up their mind early in the process, which is rumored to have helped other delegates and voters view her as a clear favorite. it's mentioned in this article:
I was in favor of Clinton early on too. So what?

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Well, I guess if you're claiming it to be fact, then everyone else should just shut up and assume you're right. Either way, it caused enough of a bad taste in people's mouths to have the entire thing changed.
I don't care if you post your opinion.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
II believe that Clinton rightfully won the primary, and have never implied anything really differently. That doesn't mean I can't notice that superdelegates have played a role in helping that along. Not everything has to be all or nothing. There actually are shades of grey, and I know you and Hillary are like....besties or something, but seriously. The DNC favored her, rightfully so as Bernie only runs as a Dem when it helps him, and I have no issue with it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.
The whole superdelegates thing was addressed ad nauseum at the time.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Of which I never have been nor will I ever be.
People believe Sanders was cheated whether they supported him or not. The claim originates with Sanders.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:10 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
For the party leadership to tell the ground level members who they are running while trying to maintain an illusion that it's the other way around because that's an easier sell.

People really think the primaries are the ~44,000,000 registered Democrats telling the ~3,700 members of the Democratic National Convention who the nominee is gonna be and not the other way around don't they?
Do you think the DNC put 20+ candidates out there?
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:12 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Do you think the DNC put 20+ candidates out there?
*Sighs* I'm saying I'm not getting why people don't understand that at the end of the day the DNC Leadership makes the decision for the DNC not the rank and file street level Democrats is so hard for people to get.

I'm sure there's plenty of internal squabbling among the DNC elite. That has nothing to do with my point.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:38 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Sighs* I'm saying I'm not getting why people don't understand that at the end of the day the DNC Leadership makes the decision for the DNC not the rank and file street level Democrats is so hard for people to get.

I'm sure there's plenty of internal squabbling among the DNC elite. That has nothing to do with my point.
I understand. I just don't agree. I suspect I'm not alone.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:44 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I understand. I just don't agree. I suspect I'm not alone.
And I don't get this. If you "Don't agree" then... don't vote for the candidate they nominate.

If you already know who you want to vote for... what's the problem? Vote for them. They can't stop you.

Whether or not that candidate has a chance of winning is not a problem that can be solved in this context.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:59 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The cancellation of the SC primary is specifically intended to stop that clown Mark Sanford. Last seen pretending to be hiking the Appalachian trail while secretly canoodling with his South American sweetheart.

It's a bit of hardball politics. Shocking I know, compared to the way the DNC totally did not rig the 2016 contest in favor Clinton.
Gee, bigotry, and whataboutims all in one thread.
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:53 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I wonder if these fools think that the "all politicians are corrupt" line actually will trick people into thinking Trump isn't all that bad.
? These fools? I did not vote Trump. That comment would be out of line though, even if I did.
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Old 9th September 2019, 03:49 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And I don't get this. If you "Don't agree" then... don't vote for the candidate they nominate.

If you already know who you want to vote for... what's the problem? Vote for them. They can't stop you.

Whether or not that candidate has a chance of winning is not a problem that can be solved in this context.
You've gone down an off-road trail here with a number of false premises.

I don't believe the DNC nominates the candidate. Your first sentence makes zero sense.

Why do you think I have a problem? Suppose the Democrats chose the candidate. Who is going to stop me from doing what?

I don't get your last sentence either.
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Old 9th September 2019, 03:54 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I understand. I just don't agree. I suspect I'm not alone.
You’re not alone. The argument falls down at least in every recent primary election - Obama was clearly not the leadership pick, Sanders went further than expected, there is no way Trump was the pick, the Democrats probably don’t want this massive field they have now and probably have no way to prevent the rank and file choosing who they want.

“Party decides everything” might have once been true but it makes no sense now.
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Old 9th September 2019, 05:22 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Sighs* I'm saying I'm not getting why people don't understand that at the end of the day the DNC Leadership makes the decision for the DNC not the rank and file street level Democrats is so hard for people to get.
Because the results of the primaries, aka "who the rank and file vote for", determines who the nominee is. Or, at least it has since we started having primaries. They reserve the right to dictate it by fiat, disregarding primary results, but they haven't used that right since primaries began.

Now, who the rank and file vote for is influenced to various degrees by the actions of party leadership, but you're running with some "how it really works" hypothesis that's way beyond that.

Quote:
I'm sure there's plenty of internal squabbling among the DNC elite. That has nothing to do with my point.
Whatever your point is, it's apparently basically wrong, even if it's based on a few small elements of truth.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:16 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
They remember Pat Buchanan in 1992.

He was never a serious candidate. He never won a single primary. There was absolutlely zero chance he was going to take the nomination from GHWB, but it provided an opportunity to make Bush look bad all through the primary season.

I don't know to what extent it contributed to the election of Bill Clinton that fall, but it certainly didn't do Bush or the GOP any good.


I kind of hope what comes out of this is that Weld declares that since the GOP process is rigged, he'll run as an independent. That's not very likely, but you never know.
Uh, it's sort of hard to make Trump look worse then he is doing by himself.
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:22 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Nonsense, to quote Chenney "Deficits don't matter". That was only ever something to use against democrats not any kind of principle.
Yes, of course Republicans have no qualms extending debt to fund their own agendas. But dropping the lip service to the importance of shrinking the deficit is a 180 turn for the party of "fiscal responsibility". It's been a huge part of the branding, even though it wasn't true in the slightest.

Them repudiating such a core message is more evidence of the radical change the party has now that it is captured by Trump.
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:00 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, of course Republicans have no qualms extending debt to fund their own agendas. But dropping the lip service to the importance of shrinking the deficit is a 180 turn for the party of "fiscal responsibility". It's been a huge part of the branding, even though it wasn't true in the slightest.

Them repudiating such a core message is more evidence of the radical change the party has now that it is captured by Trump.
All the talk about the Republican Party abandoning its core principles under Trump assumes that, at one time, they believed in those principles. When you pay attention to what they do instead of what they say, the scam is revealed.
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:40 AM   #116
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Gee, bigotry, and whataboutims all in one thread.
Yea he needs to get better at his payoffs to porn stars and not fall in love with them. That is what a real leader does.
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Old 10th September 2019, 09:37 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, of course Republicans have no qualms extending debt to fund their own agendas. But dropping the lip service to the importance of shrinking the deficit is a 180 turn for the party of "fiscal responsibility". It's been a huge part of the branding, even though it wasn't true in the slightest.

Them repudiating such a core message is more evidence of the radical change the party has now that it is captured by Trump.
They always temporarily drop the branding and lip service on that issue whenever they have power.

They only get into balanced budgets when a Dem is in the whitehouse.
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Old 10th September 2019, 10:31 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They always temporarily drop the branding and lip service on that issue whenever they have power.

They only get into balanced budgets when a Dem is in the whitehouse.
You noticed.
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Old 10th September 2019, 01:34 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
They remember Pat Buchanan in 1992.

He was never a serious candidate. He never won a single primary. There was absolutlely zero chance he was going to take the nomination from ...

I expect this kind of innumeracy on other sites but it's disappointing to see it on a skeptic site such as ISF.

Unlikely -- even when modified as highly unlikely or extremely unlikely -- is not the same as impossible. But I routinely see people asserting that unlikely events which didn't occur were actually impossible.

There are things which are impossible, such as Pat Buchanan sprouting horns and a tail, performing demonic acts such as spouting fire from a trident without the assistance of stage magic, and declaring that he was actually a demon from hell. I believe it would also have been impossible for Pat Buchanan to have communicated with dead people, to have cured people of cancer by touching them and saying magic phrases, or to have levitated objects through mental power alone. [Buchanan's mental powers simply weren't strong enough to perform levitation.]

In contrast, Pat Buchanan winning the presidential nomination in 1992 was unlikely but not impossible.

The fact he did not win a single primary does not mean it was impossible for him to have won primaries. Primary elections, unlike the general election, are not a single event. They are a series of events, and the outcome of each one is influenced by the outcomes of the previous ones. If Pat Buchanan had managed to pull off an upset victory in New Hampshire, as he tried to do, the outcomes in the following primaries would likely have been significantly different.

Would Pat Buchanan have won the nomination if he'd defeated George Bush in the NH primary? Possibly yes, possibly no. We don't know, because that's not what happened. But it was possible for a NH upset to happen, and it was possible that following a NH upset Buchanan would have gone on to continue rousting Bush in more of the primaries -- with Bush becoming weaker and Buchanan becoming stronger each time that happened -- and that Buchanan would have been the nominee.

It was not impossible for Buchanan to win the nomination, and it is a mistake for people to say that things which are unlikely are impossible. People in the US public have enough trouble understanding probability without skeptics saying things which promote that misunderstanding.

And just as it would have been possible for Buchanan to have beaten Bush in 1992, it is possible for Weld or Walsh to beat Trump in 2020. Unlikely, yes; impossible, no. Keep in mind that in 2015 it was highly unlikely that Trump would win the 2016 nomination (but he did) and that in 2016 it was highly unlikely that Trump would win the presidential election (until he did).

Most of history is made up of unlikely events. They only become likely as the time when they occur approaches; but a year prior, two years prior, five years prior to something happening the odds are generally against that particular thing happening. That's why predicting the future accurately is so difficult, regardless of whether one is a professional psychic or a professional skeptic.

It's much easier to assert what will happen after it's happened than before, and at that point it's easy to assign a 100% possibility to the things which did in fact happen and a 0% possibility to the things which did not in fact happen. But that's not how probability actually works, and it's good to keep that in mind when writing about how possible it is for something to happen.

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Old 10th September 2019, 03:51 PM   #120
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I hate to keep repeating myself but.....

Whether or not the Trump opponents have a snowball chance in hell of succeeding...I don't think they do...is not the point;the point is the GOP party members should have the right to choose.
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