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Old 20th September 2021, 08:58 AM   #121
dann
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
In California, the latest idea is that colleges will no longer consider SAT scores in their admissions process. So a high SAT score will no longer get you into college.

It's about time:

The SATs Are Designed to Be Racist. Here’s How (The Amber Ruffin Show, Sep 18, 2021)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th September 2021, 09:24 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
What's her hair color got to do with it?
It reinforces the fact that this anecdote never actually happened
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Old 20th September 2021, 09:49 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
You are incorrect. Counting (up or down depending on where you’re from) is much more efficient in time and also reduces errors from the extra step of entering the tendered amount.

Quicker and more accurate seem to me to validate the hour or so it takes a functional human to learn it.

ETA: the option of entering the tendered amount is still available if the cashier is confused or hung-over or whatever.
There is no scenario where being a good cashier is less efficient. At the very least it is exactly as efficient.

Plus, all customers are thieves and scam-artists, so **** them
This is the part that I think is a little off. It is indeed quick to learn, but as I mentioned it only saves time if the cashier does it routinely, and I just don't think it happens enough to get the repetitions needed for it to become second nature. If I were running a store I would consider it a bad idea to encourage my cashiers to attempt this--and yes, **** the scam artists, and one of the ways to do that is to rely on procedure rather than the wits of the cashier, even if mine are the smartest in the business. Enter in exactly what the customer gave you, so that if a dispute arises--honest or ill-intentioned--the customer's and cashier's exact action is what was saved on record, and will most closely match the video footage.

As a result I don't see how it's a meaningful part of being a "good cashier" to have that talent. It doesn't detract, but there's little reason to lament its absence.
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Old 21st September 2021, 09:13 AM   #124
dann
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Dumbing down schools for MAGA

Im a Teacher. Im About to Quit. (Medium, Sep 17, 2021)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st September 2021, 07:16 PM   #125
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If given the opportunity I would rename this thread Dumbing down Schools for Equity is Not Equitable. The problem I am trying to highlight is that the word "equity" has serious barriers to critical review even if the policies that include "equity" in the name increases racism.

That is why when I highlighted issues of systematic racism, I could get labeled racist with lots of bolding and highlighting, even while the accuser activity defends sytematic racism systems. I don't blame her, bless her heart, as propaganda for party loyalty is far more powerful than the goals off that party.

However, as a lifelong Democrat, my goal is to make my party stronger. There are many areas where Democrats seek to make improvements only to make thighs worse off. It is not beneficial to blindly defend Democrats while defending their shortcomings.

When policies by Democrats increase Systematic Racism, it is beneficial to point out or and address it. Rather than follow through with Systematic Racism policies if you think that raising alarms might reflect poorly on the party that implemented them.
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Old 21st September 2021, 09:27 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Butter! View Post
No, it has happened to me. More than once. I've been the dumb young cashier that snooty old dads pull this move on. Then they'd try to give me a patronizing math lesson, loudly, on the spot. Sometimes, their wives would at least grant me the dignity of looking embarrassed to be with them.

My own father has come home / over bitching about these exact same types of interactions too, over the years. Use your ******* credit card, if it bothers you so much DAD.

The thing is, I actually don't think most cashiers freeze up when they're given weird change because they are dumb. It's just unexpected, and they're often not sure why someone is giving them an odd configuration. Plus, there's usually a big line they're expected to keep moving. I think this kind of transaction should be alluded to in training, so that new workers will recognize it.
So what are we up to, an anecdote of 4-5 cases?


Quote:
But yes, every subsequent generation is ruining the world, everyone younger than me is bad, etc.
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Old 21st September 2021, 09:31 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Absolutely stunned that it took this long for someone else to realize this. There is no change-counting skill, or lost esoteric arts, or even math. The cashier merely enters the amount tendered, $2.01 for the $1.76 purchase, and the register reads $.25 change. That's it.
And if you get $2.01, how many times does it take for a cashier to catch on?
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Old 21st September 2021, 11:03 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
There are many areas where Democrats seek to make improvements only to make thighs worse off.
Arse holes!
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Old 22nd September 2021, 08:13 AM   #129
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So what are we up to, an anecdote of 4-5 cases
Mike! and I brought it up for the same reason (presumably): to ask if others see this too? My kids and I see it frequently enough to comment on.

Demanding studies is kind of stupid though. I seriously doubt anyone has been dedicating funds to studying cashier thought processes.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And if you get $2.01, how many times does it take for a cashier to catch on?
I assume you mean 'give' $2.01, not 'get'? If so, how the hell would I know what the rest of the cashier's day goes like? You think I stand there buying small coffees over and over
for hours?

If I were to guess, I'd say 3/4 of the cashiers would need no explanation and understand what was being done. Of the remaining 1/4, the majority would be on autopilot and just enter the $2.01 and give back the quarter that the register told them was the change.

A very very small minority would stop and argue with the customer once or twice before catching on, then not do it again. That would make such a sighting as rare as a four leaf clover in the wild, that you might run across once in a decade.

Since the thread started, it has happened to me twice. The second time the cashier meticulously counted out twenty five cents in nickels and pennies (there were plenty of quarters visible in the till). I did not say a single word to her but "hi", and to answer "that's it" when she asked if that was all I was buying.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 10:49 AM   #130
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Could be they were managing to the stash--even plenty of quarters can dry up quick when people like me show up and want five or six at a time to get water from the machine outside.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 11:00 AM   #131
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Possible, I suppose. Of course the machines take bills, and drinks are $1 now IIRC.

There are a lot of possible explanations. I was mostly curious how many others noticed something similar. Replies here go from 'doesn't happen/urban myth' to the 'Behold the Lost Skill of Counting Coins'.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 11:15 AM   #132
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Going way back to the OP,....my own fractions anecdote.

My modern physics prof at the University of Illinois was kind of a cranky, irritable sort of person. After handing back exams one day, he was berating us for our stupidity. Seriously. There was one particular misdeed he was especially adamant about. Some huge number is students, maybe 1/3? had added 1/2+1/3 and gotten either 1/5 or 1/6. He concluded, "That's why I drive a Toyota".

Ok. Just to put it in context, U of I was one of the top engineering schools in the country. We weren't MIT, but we were in the next tier. So, that room really was full of the best and the brightest. Does it mean that our schools were putting out idiots?

No. It means that 18 year olds make dumb mistakes when they are in a hurry. We all knew that 1/2 was more than 1/5, but a fair number of people were racing through a problem under time pressure.

I'm pretty sure that more than half of Americans knew that 1/3 was bigger than 1/4. I just suspect that in the midst of a focus group, some people gave hasty and imprecise answers, and the marketers decided that a good summary to the A&W executives would be, "you had a great plan, but your customers were too stupid to understand it."

One other thing that makes me suspicious of the anecdote is that I remember "Papa Burgers" at A&W in the 1960s. The anecdote makes it sound like it was a name invented to avoid fractionally challenged Americans in the 1980s.

Basically, I share the concerns of the OP. I just don't think the evidence presented really proves it is happening in a way that needs to be a cause of concern.
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Old 22nd September 2021, 10:55 PM   #133
dann
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I assume you mean 'give' $2.01, not 'get'?

I think that it was implied that the you in the example is the cashier, who gets $2.01 from a customer.
Why do old people not understand this immediately? Did they learn nothing in school?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 22nd September 2021, 11:10 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why do old people not understand this immediately? Did they learn nothing in school?
Interesting thing that. In the 1960s, schools started teaching arithmetic using Cuisenaire Rods. The theory was that students using these rods would not have to learn arithmetic by rote. As a result, a number of students from that time would not be able to do mental arithmetic without a calculator.

Fortunately for me, although the nuns also used Cuisenaire Rods, they were skeptical that they would replace rote learning so they continued to beat arithmetic into me.

After a few years, schools started to realize that Cuisenaire rods were promising more than they could deliver and went back to teaching arithmetic the way they knew best.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 04:14 PM   #135
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I messed with those things when I was a kid! Would have been in the 70s I think. Possibly very early 80s. Personally I think a tactile representation of numbers and quantities was valuable, but just so--I think they tried to make more of them than they were.

In the end I was just using them as Legos that wouldn't stick together. I never discovered any way of doing basic arithmetic that worked better for me than the traditional addition and times tables, long division, and so forth. Once in a while my stepdad or a teacher tried to get me to visualize the problems in a different way, like "Ok this is ALMOST 20, so just multiply by twenty and then add the extras back in". But I couldn't work that way--that meant changing my method every time depending on what numbers I got. The only way I could get it right reliably was to do it the same way every time.

Some people can think that way and save time, other people can't.
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Old 23rd September 2021, 07:05 PM   #136
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California did the same thing for "imbalances" with minority arrests. They lowered many crimes from felony to misdemeanor, and raised the monetary amount for a felony as well. All in an effort to make things equal across racial lines.

They don't deny that is the reason so I won't bother looking for a link. I've posted it many times here in the past year.

And I no I do not agree with any of this.
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Old 26th September 2021, 03:03 AM   #137
dann
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Interesting thing that. In the 1960s, schools started teaching arithmetic using Cuisenaire Rods.

I never heard of those. There is no Wikipedia article about them in a Scandinavian language, so I don't think they were ever used here.
I remember slide rules. I hated those things even though there was nothing irrational about them. Fortunately, they didn't survive the arrival of pocket calculators, at least not in schools.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th September 2021, 02:56 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I never heard of those. There is no Wikipedia article about them in a Scandinavian language, so I don't think they were ever used here.
Maybe it is an AUSUK thing.

Education departments in Australia tend to be top heavy bureaucracies that are always foisting fads into schools - riding roughshod over the qualms of the teachers who have to try and implement them in the class room. Cuisenaire rods is just one of these ideas.

Don't get me wrong. Tactile devices to help figure out addition and multiplication tables is a good idea but if you are going to do arithmetic without a calculator then sooner or later, you will have to rote memorize these tables.
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Old 27th September 2021, 10:56 PM   #139
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https://media.gab.com/system/media_a...df0d34efa7.png

Edited by Agatha:  Edited for rule 5. Do not hotlink unless the originating site expressly allows it; in this case Gab explicitly forbids hotlinking from their site to any other.

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Old 28th September 2021, 12:36 PM   #140
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Nice stupid 4chan graphic. What does it have to do with the ******* topic
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Old 28th September 2021, 12:47 PM   #141
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My parents bought a set of Cuisenaire Rods when I was a kid. We did some exercises with them, but nothing ever came of it. I remember their tactile aesthetics were very pleasing. The feel of the resin and the weight of the pieces.
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Old 28th September 2021, 01:03 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by The Traveler View Post
Man. Talk about SelfAwareWolves.
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Old 8th October 2021, 11:42 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I hate that the metric is 'closing the gap' and not actually improving overall achievement for all students. Just imagine all the ways you can 'close that gap' just by closing off measuring mastery in a subject or cutting honors classes that have disparities in representation...etc.... Bad metric.
Winner winner, chicken dinner!!

We homeschool two boys. Yesterday for one class we studied the district's goals. It's 263 words.

None of these words appeared: "reading, writing, mathematics, science".

It is the equivalent of Hershey's company writing a description of their business objectives without a word about producing chocolate.

Instead, it is three things: Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. It's pretty clear what that means underneath the obtuse Orwellian jargon. So...

Our local public school enrollment has fallen by 69% while population rose 11% in the 15 years before covid. Wow!

Surprisingly it held steady after covid at our school. Because the parents paying attention had already removed their kids. Adjusted for population, enrollment is down over 70%. It's incredible given that they spent over $33k per student last year.

But we're tied with Mexico in our local school's academic scores. The parents who care about that have removed their kids for a vastly superior academic track. It isn't hard to beat Mexico.

The other parents are trades-oriented and do not see the schools teaching anything useful. A kid that stays with his dad doing heavy equipment work, welding, mechanics, construction, etc. is going to be making adult pay at 12. Mine do at 10 and 11 years old, $100/hour on our bulldozer.

We have done a lot more dumbing down than in mathematics. The kids better fit for trades have been rendered ignorant where they need it most. Forcing them to do math instead of welding, which pays $90k a year here and does not even require an elementary education.

An illiterate boy can be a journeyman welder by 12 and make a million dollars by 21 years old. Instead of making a millionaire out of the welder, we make him do a curriculum he is not cut out for. We lie and say he is Einstein but the systemic something or other is keeping him from doing physics so he must spend a decade failing at that instead of becoming rich.

This is not "equity". We have a perverted, snobbish view of education. There is only one kind of knowledge to them. It will be imposed on everyone in the name of removing "barriers" whether they like it or not. Even if they starve to death, the important thing is they were in an algebra class instead of making good money.
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Old 8th October 2021, 11:17 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
Winner winner, chicken....
A strictly vocational education is not broadly extensible beyond its immediate application and therefore restricts future potential, apart from making it far less likely to allow a child to step very far from the tribal cave and benefit from the full range of human knowledge and history. Why, people like that are likely to confuse nuclear explosions with "big fireballs, like you've never seen before" and support policies leading to deadly fallout, with "my bad" not cutting it afterwards.
Ignorance is bad enough, but willful ignorance an act of abandonment, leaving one's post as a responsible member of society. But hey, with change jingling in your pocket, you can have a beer and enjoy the light show. Besides, the less you know, the more one feels smart, unable to recall the many times naive impression had to give way to an informed opposite, rarely if ever experiencing a major advance in understanding, gosh, anything not strewn around the shop floor.


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Old 8th October 2021, 11:34 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
Winner winner, chicken dinner!!

We homeschool two boys. Yesterday for one class we studied the district's goals. It's 263 words.

None of these words appeared: "reading, writing, mathematics, science".

It is the equivalent of Hershey's company writing a description of their business objectives without a word about producing chocolate.

Instead, it is three things: Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. It's pretty clear what that means underneath the obtuse Orwellian jargon. So...

Our local public school enrollment has fallen by 69% while population rose 11% in the 15 years before covid. Wow!

Surprisingly it held steady after covid at our school. Because the parents paying attention had already removed their kids. Adjusted for population, enrollment is down over 70%. It's incredible given that they spent over $33k per student last year.

But we're tied with Mexico in our local school's academic scores. The parents who care about that have removed their kids for a vastly superior academic track. It isn't hard to beat Mexico.

The other parents are trades-oriented and do not see the schools teaching anything useful. A kid that stays with his dad doing heavy equipment work, welding, mechanics, construction, etc. is going to be making adult pay at 12. Mine do at 10 and 11 years old, $100/hour on our bulldozer.

We have done a lot more dumbing down than in mathematics. The kids better fit for trades have been rendered ignorant where they need it most. Forcing them to do math instead of welding, which pays $90k a year here and does not even require an elementary education.

An illiterate boy can be a journeyman welder by 12 and make a million dollars by 21 years old. Instead of making a millionaire out of the welder, we make him do a curriculum he is not cut out for. We lie and say he is Einstein but the systemic something or other is keeping him from doing physics so he must spend a decade failing at that instead of becoming rich.

This is not "equity". We have a perverted, snobbish view of education. There is only one kind of knowledge to them. It will be imposed on everyone in the name of removing "barriers" whether they like it or not. Even if they starve to death, the important thing is they were in an algebra class instead of making good money.
Wow. Arguing for child labor, that's something you don't see every day.

Thankfully we have laws to prevent exploitation like that.

And if you are actually making your underage children work using heavy machinery, you should be prosecuted according to the law.

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Old 10th October 2021, 11:58 PM   #146
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You dont know anything about trades if you think math is unimportant
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Old 11th October 2021, 07:45 AM   #147
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You don't need an English lit degree to be a machinist but math is absolutely essential.

I am bad at math and it really messed with my ability to take certain jobs.
Argue against underwater basket weaving degrees from Flowerchild U as practical but math, sciences and chemistry are very useful in getting better jobs.

A lot of lazy kids end up dishwashers and wait staff for blowing off the hard stuff in school. I am one.

Yet I can field fabricate repairs to old machines that keep them in service without a lot of precise measurements. Great on a bulldozer but keep me away from spacecraft and airliners.

I learned to respect those that tried harder early in life. Now I have to teach my son by my example how to do better.

Karma.....
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Old 12th October 2021, 03:14 PM   #148
dudalb
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
You dont know anything about trades if you think math is unimportant
You don't know much about anything if you think math is unimportant.
I am pretry sure a knowledge of math had something to do with Bill Gates becoming one of the world's richest men....


Anyway, ABP's whole Anti Establishment rants became boring a long time ago.
Just another guy who see himself as some sort of Neo fighting against the Matrix...
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Old 12th October 2021, 03:17 PM   #149
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Wow. Arguing for child labor, that's something you don't see every day.

Thankfully we have laws to prevent exploitation like that.

And if you are actually making your underage children work using heavy machinery, you should be prosecuted according to the law.

Yeah, 12 seems a little young for heavy machinery.
It's not unusual for some Technical high schools to train high school age kids in the use of heavy machinery as part of an apprentice program, but 12 is way too young.
But anyway, the poster see himself as some kind of heroic Anarchist fighting the MAN, so crap like this is only to be expected.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
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Old 12th October 2021, 03:26 PM   #150
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Poetry.
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Old 12th October 2021, 11:55 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
... Why, people like that are likely to confuse nuclear explosions with "big fireballs, like you've never seen before" and support policies leading to deadly fallout, with "my bad" not cutting it afterwards. ...

What's the use of knowledge about nuclear fission? Anybody can do that!
It takes a real stable genius to come up with ideas for the practical use of those big fireballs, like to put out hurricanes, for instance. I bet they would also come in handy in the fight against cancer-spreading windmills ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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