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4th January 2022, 09:08 AM | #1 |
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The next US civil war is already here – we just refuse to see it
The next US civil war is already here – we just refuse to see it
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4th January 2022, 09:15 AM | #2 |
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We certainly have the uncivil cold war getting worse by the day.
I fear we simply just don't have enough American voters who actually believe in Equality and too many who would be just fine with an oligarchy that simply kept the malls open. |
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"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown |
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4th January 2022, 09:16 AM | #3 |
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Sadly, it seems both sides now believe they must destroy democracy to save it.
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4th January 2022, 09:18 AM | #4 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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4th January 2022, 09:23 AM | #5 |
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Oh you're just being dramatic hyperbolic. Oh and whataboutathis. No wait I demand you have a civil debate with me about why this is a bad thing. Wait no I changed my mind I demand the conversation stop until we define Civil War. "But both sides..."
There that covers all the troll arguments so the actual trolls don't have to bother making them. |
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4th January 2022, 09:27 AM | #6 |
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The writer is quite open about ensuring that the "right' never wins again:
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4th January 2022, 09:30 AM | #7 |
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This is the kind of beyond insane argument people make with a straight face in a post fact world. A bog standard "One side can only win if they cheat, therefore if you don't want cheating that must mean you only want the other side to win" bit of insane troll logic.
One side makes both facts and basic human decency a partisan issue, so when facts or basic human decency are defended they can play the "Don't make it political card." Pathetic. |
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4th January 2022, 09:31 AM | #8 |
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Everything he wrote is about strengthening democracy. If the Democrats did what he said, the right could still win but they'd have to change strategy. They'd have to actually try to win voters and votes instead of destroying voter's rights and dismantling the election system.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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4th January 2022, 09:39 AM | #9 |
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To paraphrase a similar statement; Republicans are so against democracy they think everything done to protect democracy is an attack on them personally.
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4th January 2022, 09:47 AM | #10 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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4th January 2022, 09:49 AM | #11 |
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Being the victim of genocidal atrocities does not give you free reign to commit your own genocidal atrocities. When Republican politicians were young, they were the kids who watched James Bond movies and said "I want to grow up to be just like [insert name of villain here]." |
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4th January 2022, 09:53 AM | #12 |
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It seems trivially obvious that if you fight evil you're taking sides. So?
Have we come so far in the "teach the controversy" ******** that we must count all things as equivalent? |
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4th January 2022, 09:55 AM | #13 |
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The Republicans have successfully sold a lot of rubes on the idea that opposing them because they factually wrong and morally horrible is the same thing as a surface level, kneejerk political bias.
As well exampled in this and many other threads here on the board. |
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4th January 2022, 09:59 AM | #14 |
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That's really the only option the Proudly Wrong have.
The post-fact world isn't the goal, that's the method. Being able to just be wrong and destroy anyway of addressing it, to make every factual statement to be the same thing as prejudice or bias, is the goal. They want to be able to just go "Oh you're just biased against me for being wrong and just horrible as a human being" to be something that makes sense and works in discourse, and they've pretty much got it. And everyday that subtext slips more and more into the text because that's what they want. I've said it many times but the intended endstate of this is a totally detached from reality group that stops even trying to pretend they are factually correct or morally defensible going "Yeah I'm wrong and bad, stop me. Do something about it, I dare you." It's trolling and misinformation as full psychological warfare. |
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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4th January 2022, 10:30 AM | #15 |
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4th January 2022, 10:31 AM | #16 |
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I don't dismiss the threat to our democracy but I'm just having trouble imagining what would define a civil war for us under these conditions. For instance, let us assume the states where Republicans control the legislature are able to successfully suppress/invalidate 50% of non-Republican votes. Does this mean Democrats in those states will take arms against the state legislatures? Or, would massive protests similar to what brought about the voting rights act constitute a civil war?
I agree the Republican actions are a threat to our democracy. However, I'm not sure I would see the end game as a civil war. To me, a civil war involves a significant portion of the population involved in an armed insurrection against the existing government. I just don't see that happening. However, I can imagine the gradual erosion of voting rights and civil liberties. This is more like the frog in the pot brought to a boil. We won't be convinced until our rights are completely gone. |
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4th January 2022, 10:33 AM | #17 |
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*Standing in the rubble* You see guys the IMPORTANT thing is that I was right about this not technically being a Civil War because it didn't come from a certain region of Southern France, so technically it's an arachnid.
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4th January 2022, 10:37 AM | #18 |
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If our institutions were working even moderately well, Trump would be in prison.
Anyone putting faith in our institutions protecting themselves is denying reality. |
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4th January 2022, 10:38 AM | #19 |
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Most aren't so much citizens as consumers. The right to consume is the preeminent human right that other rights can be sacrificed for. (See electronic and social media surveillance.) Candidates are chosen in a consumer frame of mind (as seen on TV). Citizenship is a once a year holiday sentiment.
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"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown |
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4th January 2022, 10:42 AM | #20 |
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Yes. I don't see how to do a war between the states when even the "Blue States" are rurally "Red."
And I suspect that "dictatorship" in America will simply take the form of restoration of white privilege and white culture, so that whites won't feel oppressed in the least. |
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"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown |
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4th January 2022, 10:52 AM | #21 |
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Urging everyone to band together in sides and fight the enemy is what would cause a conflict. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Or would be, except (as pointed out above), Americans are fat and lazy. As long as the current state of things is comfortable they will have insufficient motivation to endure discomfort in order to cause change. Sure, they'll complain on Facebook, but how many will crawl through mud, go without electricity, give up meals? Not enough to do a civil war. That requires an existential threat -- "we're going to destroy your livelihoods or exterminate your ethnic group", not "your manager will write you up if you call Pat from accounting a man".
And the other thing about civil war is that it occurs when the conflict is between factions of the people in power. All this talk and huff is promulgated by one faction of the powerful to keep themselves in power--they have no desire to overturn the applecart because that would unseat themselves as well. They just want to sit slightly higher up and have access to more of the best apples. At the end of the day the millionaire Republican is going to side with the millionaire Democrat, not some hick in a trailer. They just talk crap because their idiot bases respond to it and pay out with votes. This is Karens throwing a fit in a Target because their coupon is expired. |
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4th January 2022, 10:53 AM | #22 |
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4th January 2022, 11:50 AM | #23 |
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4th January 2022, 11:59 AM | #24 |
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An opinion piece in the NYTimes seems relevant.
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The essay points out so much of our current system is undemocratically rigged to favor the conservative minority of this country. Demanding that the minority rule over the majority is fully in the spirit of the US Constitution. |
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4th January 2022, 12:02 PM | #25 |
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That's a double edge sword.
1. Trump, at absolute best giving him all the benefits of all the doubts, enjoyed the support of ~45% of the population at most no matter the question and how it was asked; elections, proxy elections of people who were basically running on "Trump Likes Me", opinion pools, approval pools. 2. ... of people who actually showed up and voted, voiced their opinion, or made their voice heard which was never all that much. Which leads us right to the problem. The thing we as a society always fight over but by definition almost can't have a answer. "Who are the unvoiced and who side are they on?" |
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4th January 2022, 12:07 PM | #26 |
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4th January 2022, 12:13 PM | #27 |
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It's not so much that Trump supporters (active or passive) don't realize that less than half of the voters support Trump; it's that they firmly believe that only pro-trump votes should count and that therefore all other votes should be disqualified for being insufficiently patriotic.
For the majority of Republicans, Democrats are just not actually Americans; most don't even count as humans as far as they are concerned. |
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4th January 2022, 12:16 PM | #28 |
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Also you don't need a majority when your goal is to tear the system down and your tactic is "I can do anything I want unless somebody stops me."
When you're basically the political equivalent of a suicide bomber you don't need to match the enemy in manpower. |
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4th January 2022, 12:23 PM | #29 |
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4th January 2022, 12:27 PM | #30 |
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I imagine it will be very much like Russia's "democracy" where supporters of the party don't understand, or care, that it's really a dictatorship.
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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4th January 2022, 12:34 PM | #31 |
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Being the victim of genocidal atrocities does not give you free reign to commit your own genocidal atrocities. When Republican politicians were young, they were the kids who watched James Bond movies and said "I want to grow up to be just like [insert name of villain here]." |
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4th January 2022, 02:24 PM | #32 |
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Nope.
Democrats: Want to ensure that every American who wants to vote is able to. They want to limit the effects of things like Gerrymandering, so that political representation better represents voter intentions. That is pro-democracy. Republicans: Want to suppress the votes of people less likely to vote for them. They are quite happy getting assistance from foreign governments. And if they should lose? Many want to claim "stolen election", and overturn the election. That is Destroying democracy.
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If the political "right" cannot win in a fair election fight (without suppressing votes, without gerrymandering, etc.) then perhaps they should consider adopting policies that voters might actually like. Republicans: "Even though our 'kick voters in the groin' policy is not very popular, we think its anti-democratic if we aren't given political power, even though most voters do not want to be kicked in the groin".
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As for the proposed actions... - The republicans have been acting in bad faith over court nominations at least since Obama was president. Taking actions like stacking the court is nothing more than levelling the playing field. Why should the democrats "play fair" when the republicans are playing dirty? - Ending the fillibuster... the republicans did it over supreme court nominees... why should the democrats follow a set of rules when the republicans are likely to throw out those rules when it is convenient for them? - Making DC a state? There are millions of people who live there. Seems like giving them the right to fully participate in the political process seems like the right thing to do.
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This puts them apart from the republicans, who got the results of the 2020 election, and instead of accepting them (and then trying to improve their situation), they immediately claimed the election was stolen, followed by the support of the Jan 6 terrorist attack. |
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4th January 2022, 03:33 PM | #33 |
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"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown |
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4th January 2022, 03:37 PM | #34 |
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"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections." Justice William O. Douglas "Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures." Author Unknown |
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4th January 2022, 04:21 PM | #35 |
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And the right should not be allowed to win if their intention is to create a right wing dictatorship... which is the road the US is heading down quicker than you think
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...0-trump-canada No country should ever have to be in a fight between its political wings to preserve voting rights for every citizen. At this very moment, the right in the US is doing everything it can to make it harder to vote for those sections of the electorate who are more likely to be Democrat voters...Blacks, students and the poor. They are doing this is plain sight, under the guise of "election security". NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WESTERN WORLD DOES THIS. In the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, for example the governments do everything they can to make sure that everyone who is entitled to vote (every citizen of voting age and over of any race, colour or ethnicity) has the opportunity do so. |
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4th January 2022, 06:47 PM | #36 |
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The problem with the civil war argument is it ignores the sheer quantity of violence leading up to the civil war in the decades before. People in the US are nowhere near that.
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4th January 2022, 07:13 PM | #37 |
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4th January 2022, 07:28 PM | #38 |
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Lets see.... within the past decade you have:
- One party that openly supported a terrorist uprising (during which several police officers were beaten) after they lost the election. - One party (strangely enough the same party) has given firm support to a leader who said that neo-Nazis were "fine people", that the "second amendment" could be used on his opponents, and that he would support anyone who engaged in violence on his behalf at rallies. - One party (again, the same party, what are the odds) has members of congress who not only have engaged in bigoted rhetoric, but have complained about not being able to bring guns into congress. Other members of that same party have decided that that is acceptable. - One party (hmmm... I sense a pattern here) has engaged in rhetoric which has inspired various political acts of violence (targeting media, politicians for kidnapping) - One party (can you guess which?) has stood behind tactics such as teargassing peaceful protesters (so that one of their politcians can do a photo-op), and transferring military equipment to the police Can you guess which party that is? Yup, its the republicans. Not only that, you also have: - A sharp in crease in right-wing extremist terrorist activity over the past 2 decades. (Right-wing extremism currently makes up the majority of terrorist activity, beating left-wing, environmentalist and islamic terrorism combined) see: CSIS - Police willing to engage in rather... brutal tactics... against minorities and civil rights protestors (which differs from the way they handle right-wing/white criminals), and seem unwilling to correct the problems Looks like the violence is already here. |
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4th January 2022, 08:22 PM | #39 |
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Ehhhh... you're not wrong exactly, but he does have a point. The lead up to the Civil War included incidents like the John Brown Rebellion, which made it pretty clear there was a violent war on the way from one direction or the other on the slavery issue. Today there's lots of rhetoric from the powers that be condoning independently-conducted violence, but little enough organized violence from those powers. If anything this is more like the late Weimar Republic build up to Nazi fascism, but that's more because it's being used as a playbook than history repeating on its own.
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4th January 2022, 09:19 PM | #40 |
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*rounds up guns and ammo and bunkers down under the front porch, awaiting the onslaught of Republican warriors*
*realizes they all went to bed already and/or are watching Netflix* *goes to bed watching Netflix* Really feel like Wars should be more dramatic than this. |
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