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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing , Scottish politics , US-Libya relations , US-Scotland relations

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Old 21st August 2009, 06:10 AM   #241
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Russell Brown, Labour MP for Dumfries, said seeing the Saltire at Tripoli airport was "stomach churning" and condemned the Scottish Government for failing to seek adequate assurances that the Lockerbie bomber would not be hailed a hero on his return to Libya.

He said: "I have never been ashamed to see my country's flag waved before, but to see it misused to celebrate mass murder is outrageous.

"This man is convicted of murdering 270 people in my part of Scotland and that conviction stands.

"This adds further pressure to the SNP to explain why they have freed a man who showed no remorse for the crimes he has committed."
The SNP are a disgrace and should hang their heads in shame for dragging Scotlands reputation through the mud.
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Old 21st August 2009, 06:17 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
The SNP are a disgrace and should hang their heads in shame for dragging Scotlands reputation through the mud.
How about the UK govt and Good Friday releases?
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Old 21st August 2009, 06:20 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
How about the UK govt and Good Friday releases?
Logically speaking, the UK government doing something shameful wouldn't excuse the Scottish government from doing the same.

I am not saying either was shameful, however.
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Old 21st August 2009, 06:49 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by gtc View Post
Logically speaking, the UK government doing something shameful wouldn't excuse the Scottish government from doing the same.

I am not saying either was shameful, however.
I'm not attepmpting to say it excuses them. Just want his opinion on it compared to his opinion on the SNP actions.
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Old 21st August 2009, 06:53 AM   #245
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How about the UK govt and Good Friday releases?
And those two events are analagous how exactly?

I wasnt aware that we were negotiating over an ongoing terrorist campaign by Libya or that Colonel Gaddafi wanted to enter into power sharing in Northern Ireland?

There was zero reason to free this mass murderer other than to secure some oil deals with Libya.

I thought the left used to shout "No blood for oil" and actually meant it.

Apparently not.

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Old 21st August 2009, 07:16 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That wasn't him. If you look at the whole footage, the person punching the air was one of the guys who helped him down the steps just afterwards. I'm not quite certain, but I think it was someone who met the plane at Tripoli, who had not travelled on it.

I understand that person was in fact Lamin Fhimah, Megrahi's co-accused who was acquitted at Camp Zeist. While I agree it looked bad, I can understand a bit of air-punching at that point.

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Old 21st August 2009, 07:24 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I understand that person was in fact Lamin Fhimah, Megrahi's co-accused who was acquitted at Camp Zeist. While I agree it looked bad, I can understand a bit of air-punching at that point.

Rolfe.
Yeah the waving of the saltires was a very touching scene also.
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Old 21st August 2009, 08:37 AM   #248
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Must be uncomfortable, being so filled with hate all the time. I recommend against it.

By the way, were you going to explain how it was that the Labour party weren't intending to send Megrahi back to Libya anyway? Feel free, 'cos I can't be arsed to dig up all the contemporary news articles about it.

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Old 21st August 2009, 08:42 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
And those two events are analagous how exactly?
I wasnt aware that we were negotiating over an ongoing terrorist campaign by Libya or that Colonel Gaddafi wanted to enter into power sharing in Northern Ireland?

There was zero reason to free this mass murderer other than to secure some oil deals with Libya.

I thought the left used to shout "No blood for oil" and actually meant it.

Apparently not.
Both govts released convicted terrorist killers early. These terrorists recieved heroes welcomes when they were freed. None of the Irish ones were dying of cancer though. Do you think the IRA killers or the Loyalist killers should have been released? Its a yes or no answer.

The reason he was released was that he was dying and the rules say he can be released like others before him. You think otherwise, then prove it.
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Old 21st August 2009, 08:44 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Yeah the waving of the saltires was a very touching scene also.
Think they would have waved St Georges cross if Blair had got him released?

Or Union Jacks?
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Old 21st August 2009, 08:58 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Nope. He was punching the air as well.

What about the propaganda victory?
What propaganda victory? We have released a dying man on compassionate grounds. This is the norm in the Scottish justice system not an exception.

As to being a succour to terrorism I can just imagine all those would be terrorists sitting there thinking, Yes! all I have to do is get a nasty terminal illness.

There has been the most appalling load of nonsense talked about this event. As to his return, a few hundred well wishers and friends hardly signifies a triumphalist ticker-tape parade. As to the subsequent politicking of Labour and Tory MPs and MSPs now the deed is over - it reeks of sad desperation. Notably those actually in office in Westminster are saying little..probably because they pushed for Megrahi's appeal to be dropped. I think it exceptionally unlikely that withdrawal of the appeal and the utilisation of the compassionate release element of the Scottish justice system are unconnected. I also think it exceptionally unlikely the US state department didn't know all about the arrangements all along.

I would still like to see a full enquiry though, as there is a lot that is unexplained regarding Lockerbie and I always thought an Iranian involvement seemed more probable, coming as it did so soon after flight 655.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:01 AM   #252
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Russell Brown, Labour MP for Dumfries, said seeing the Saltire at Tripoli airport was "stomach churning" and condemned the Scottish Government for failing to seek adequate assurances that the Lockerbie bomber would not be hailed a hero on his return to Libya.

He said: "I have never been ashamed to see my country's flag waved before, but to see it misused to celebrate mass murder is outrageous.

"This man is convicted of murdering 270 people in my part of Scotland and that conviction stands.

"This adds further pressure to the SNP to explain why they have freed a man who showed no remorse for the crimes he has committed."

I find such party political posturing "stomach churning", particularly when Mr. Brown's own party was busy fixing up to get Megrahi returned to Libya in 2007, apparently related to a multi-million pound oil deal involving BP.

Rolfe.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:04 AM   #253
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This compassion rule seems ill conceived. I think your system already shows more than enough compassion by not having a death penalty. Compassion to the prisoner and his family is also a slap in the face to the victims. I'm speaking generally here and not to this specific case because I don't know enough about it. But like I said last night Wolf was grilling your justice secretary. I haven't really seen him go after someone that hard before.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:04 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Yeah the waving of the saltires was a very touching scene also.
As a Scot I can't say I found that troublesome. I took it as an attempt at a friendly gesture rather than offensive one. It makes a change from seeing them set on fire. I find the posturing of some of the politicians far more stomach churning.

Edit: Ooops Rolfe got there before me.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:07 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Policenaut View Post
This compassion rule seems ill conceived. I think your system already shows more than enough compassion by not having a death penalty. Compassion to the prisoner and his family is also a slap in the face to the victims. I'm speaking generally here and not to this specific case because I don't know enough about it. But like I said last night Wolf was grilling your justice secretary. I haven't really seen him go after someone that hard before.
Well we have it for a fair while. I can't recall it hitting the headlines before. I guess it is a clash of cultures thing.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:10 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Both govts released convicted terrorist killers early. These terrorists recieved heroes welcomes when they were freed. None of the Irish ones were dying of cancer though. Do you think the IRA killers or the Loyalist killers should have been released? Its a yes or no answer.
Unpalatable but yes as it brought about a peace process.

What part of my second sentence did you not understand?
Here I will repeat it for you.

Quote:
I wasnt aware that we were negotiating over an ongoing terrorist campaign by Libya or that Colonel Gaddafi wanted to enter into power sharing in Northern Ireland?
Get it yet?

Quote:
The reason he was released was that he was dying and the rules say he can be released like others before him. You think otherwise, then prove it.
BS.
It was a decision motivated by oil deals and petty political posturing by the SNP.
What a disgrace to Scotland they are.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:14 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Unpalatable but yes as it brought about a peace process.

What part of my second sentence did you not understand?
Here I will repeat it for you.



Get it yet?



BS.
It was a decision motivated by oil deals and petty political posturing by the SNP.
What a disgrace to Scotland they are.

What oil deals? BP are a UK company not a Scottish company. If there was an economic element then that came from the Foreign Office and Westminster not Holyrood.

Your avowed dislike of nationalists is colouring your perception of the broader picture.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:15 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Nogbad View Post
Well we have it for a fair while. I can't recall it hitting the headlines before. I guess it is a clash of cultures thing.
And it's not like they don't have something similar in the USA:

http://meetings.abanet.org/webupload...ement42307.doc
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:16 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Nogbad View Post
What propaganda victory? We have released a dying man on compassionate grounds. This is the norm in the Scottish justice system not an exception.

I watched the return quite carefully, and what I saw was someone who was allowed to mount the aircraft steps at Tripoli carrying on in a jubilant manner and punching the air, both before and after he actually greeted Megrahi. It turns out this person was Lamin Fhimah, Megrahi's friend, colleague and co-accused, who was acquitted of all charges relating to Lockerbie. [As an aside, logic really dictates that either both men were guilty or neither was. One of these verdicts has to be wrong. Why assume it can't be the Megrahi one?]

There were a fair number of other people on the tarmac, and I'd love to talk to one or two of them and ask why they were there. Many may simply have been Megrahi's family and friends - he apparently belongs to a very important tribe. But on the whole, I think GB was probably right.

Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood
I imagine that most Libyans view him as a brave member of the Libyan security services who was wrongly convicted of a terrible crime in the country that bombed their capital for no clear reason, and without consequences in 1986. So why wouldn't they welcome him home?

I really don't imagine that anyone there was cheering the man who blew up Pan Am Flight 103. They were cheering their compatriot who had been wrongly accused and unjustly convicted. And they were glad that the Scottish Government had done the right thing in view of his sad illness.

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Old 21st August 2009, 09:19 AM   #260
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By the way, were you going to explain how it was that the Labour party weren't intending to send Megrahi back to Libya anyway? Feel free, 'cos I can't be arsed to dig up all the contemporary news articles about it.

Rolfe.
No Rolfe, you brought the issue up then decided you werent willing to back up your assertions, dont expect me to do the work for you.
Thats not how things work around here.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:20 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Edited by Darat:  Removal of part of a post moved to AAH.


So issuing one statement is "scweams and scweams" (must be more of that Oxford English). And wanting to see a sentence handed down by a court legally carried out is blood lust.
I recommend the Just William stories to you.

The Scottish system allows for something called 'compassion'. What has happened to Megrahi is the sentence being legally carried out under Scottish law. Continually howling about keeping a dying man in prison when the law allows otherwise is indeed akin to blood lust and demonstrates once again how rabid the US right actually is and how they do not share our values.

There seems to be an old testament new testament divide on this issue between the USA and the UK with most US families and their government apparently calling for an old testament style vengeful retribution while the UK families seem to hold more to a new testament stance - forgiveness, compassion, truthfulness.

The vengeful nature of the statements from the USA are especially hypocritical given the recent official torture policy and the still open Guantanamo Bay. The USA ignored the imprecations of the world about its official torture programme which was illegal. Now we are ignoring a country that flouted human rights when it wishes.

Perhaps the USA could bring their own lawbreakers (such as Cheney et al) before a court to be tried for their offences before trying to stop other law abiding countries following their own laws?
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:24 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong View Post
The Scottish system allows for something called 'compassion'.
Where was all that "compassion" when the Scottish system railroaded this poor slob?
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:29 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
What blood lust? All she suggested was that you keep a terrorist in prison. She didn't say burn him at the stake.
Scotland is carrying out the sentence as per its own laws. That is not good enough for the US government and many of the US relatives. They have demanded that Scotland act in the interests of the US - not in the interests of the Scottish people. Demanding that Scotland not show compassion to an fatally ill man is blood lust.

The USA government is not getting what it wants - tough. Sort out your own criminals and start acting lawfully before you try and order other countries about. You could start with your torturers, who are still wandering around the USA free and unfettered.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:29 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Policenaut View Post
This compassion rule seems ill conceived. I think your system already shows more than enough compassion by not having a death penalty. Compassion to the prisoner and his family is also a slap in the face to the victims. I'm speaking generally here and not to this specific case because I don't know enough about it. But like I said last night Wolf was grilling your justice secretary. I haven't really seen him go after someone that hard before.

Well of course Kenny was a sitting duck, because he couldn't say the obvious. Which was that the doubts over the conviction are so great that Megrahi had a good chance of being acquitted on appeal anyway, but he didn't have enough time left to see the appeal through. Kenny's a lawyer, he knows the score. He has to defend the verdict and he's not allowed even to imply that the conviction might be unsafe, no matter what he might think about it. Which of course gives a onesided view of the affair to those not already aware of the background.

I saw Kenny being grilled by Gordon Brewer and by Gavin Esler last night. He was obviously quite prepared to be toasted to the max about it. He was lucky he didn't get Paxmaned as well. Anyway, the entire SNP cabinet is used to that, because the UK media all hate the SNP's guts. Just another day at the office, really.

Rolfe.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:31 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
And it's not like they don't have something similar in the USA:

http://meetings.abanet.org/webupload...ement42307.doc
Yes we have it. I've never heard of it being used on someone convicted of murdering 270 people though. I think there would have been riots if someone like Terry Nichols had terminal cancer and was released on 'compassionate' grounds. I don't know all the minute details about the Lockerbie case (it appears the whole truth is never to be known) so I won't speculate on whether he was actually guilty or innocent. All I know is that he was convicted of the crime and was subsequently released only because he was dying.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:34 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Nogbad View Post
What oil deals? BP are a UK company not a Scottish company. If there was an economic element then that came from the Foreign Office and Westminster not Holyrood.

Yes. The oil deal part was actually part of the Tony Blair 2007 deal to have Megrahi released as a prisoner transfer. Nothing to do with the SNP.

The bit that I think suggests SNP skulduggery is the bit where Kenny MacAskill seems to have pressurised Megrahi to drop his appeal before being granted compassionate leave.

Rolfe.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:34 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
He's gone from calling her a bully to saying she's demanding blood lust. Hilliary must scare the heck out of him.
Au contraire - It is possible to accurately describe someone's behaviour without being scared of them. I commend it to you.


As you know I am celebrating at her and the US government being run off, correctly, by the Scottish government, after representations from its citizens, including me.

Kenny for ever.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:36 AM   #268
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Yeah the SNP can take some pride in snubbing their noses at the relatives of the passengers in the US.
Salmond and co are class acts.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:38 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Well of course Kenny was a sitting duck, because he couldn't say the obvious. Which was that the doubts over the conviction are so great that Megrahi had a good chance of being acquitted on appeal anyway, but he didn't have enough time left to see the appeal through. Kenny's a lawyer, he knows the score. He has to defend the verdict and he's not allowed even to imply that the conviction might be unsafe, no matter what he might think about it. Which of course gives a onesided view of the affair to those not already aware of the background.

I saw Kenny being grilled by Gordon Brewer and by Gavin Esler last night. He was obviously quite prepared to be toasted to the max about it. He was lucky he didn't get Paxmaned as well. Anyway, the entire SNP cabinet is used to that, because the UK media all hate the SNP's guts. Just another day at the office, really.

Rolfe.
Yes there was a fair to do about it over on the Guardian board with people saying that MacAskill's position is now untenable. I can't quite get my head around how they think Holyrood works, what MacAskill's job actually is, how it relates to the SG cabinet and how the SG relates to Westminister.

When taken to task about some of this one poster said "Oh well I don't know anything about Scottish politics".

Mental!
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:41 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Yeah the SNP can take some pride in snubbing their noses at the relatives of the passengers in the US.
Salmond and co are class acts.
But not the UK relatives who would appear to support the decision.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:42 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Nogbad View Post
But not the UK relatives who would appear to support the decision.
How many?
List them.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:43 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Absolutely. My issue is with some posters that think the UK is somehow morally superior when it comes to playing politics. You may call them crisps, we may call them potato chips, but we're really not different at all.
Au contraire. This episode and the furore and systematic lies in the USA by the rabid right over the NHS demonstrate that the USA is very different for the UK in an increasing number of ways, including core values.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:44 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Nogbad View Post
But not the UK relatives who would appear to support the decision.
They supported the decision to release him, but are angered that the appeal was dropped.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:46 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
How many?
List them.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/au...bomber-release
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:47 AM   #275
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*THIS* is why you don't let him out to go home and die!

Lockerbie convict goes home to hero's welcome.


Any questions?
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:52 AM   #276
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Plenty answers in the other thread on the subject though.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I watched the return quite carefully, and what I saw was someone who was allowed to mount the aircraft steps at Tripoli carrying on in a jubilant manner and punching the air, both before and after he actually greeted Megrahi. It turns out this person was Lamin Fhimah, Megrahi's friend, colleague and co-accused, who was acquitted of all charges relating to Lockerbie. [As an aside, logic really dictates that either both men were guilty or neither was. One of these verdicts has to be wrong. Why assume it can't be the Megrahi one?]

There were a fair number of other people on the tarmac, and I'd love to talk to one or two of them and ask why they were there. Many may simply have been Megrahi's family and friends - he apparently belongs to a very important tribe. But on the whole, I think GT was probably right.

Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
I imagine that most Libyans view him as a brave member of the Libyan security services who was wrongly convicted of a terrible crime in the country that bombed their capital for no clear reason, and without consequences in 1986. So why wouldn't they welcome him home?

I really don't imagine that anyone there was cheering the man who blew up Pan Am Flight 103. They were cheering their compatriot who had been wrongly accused and unjustly convicted. And they were glad that the Scottish Government had done the right thing in view of his sad illness.

Rolfe.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 21st August 2009 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:53 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
How many?
List them.
Have you listed the Americans relatives?

Jim Swire and Rev Mosey who act as spokesmen for the UK relatives group spoke in favour of release but want an enquiry.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:54 AM   #278
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Why shouldn't they cheer the return home of a man who may have unjustly spent years in prison?
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:54 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post

No mention of numbers there.
The vast majority of the victims werent from the UK that much is clear.
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Old 21st August 2009, 09:56 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Nogbad View Post
Have you listed the Americans relatives?

Jim Swire and Rev Mosey who act as spokesmen for the UK relatives group spoke in favour of release but want an enquiry.
Somehow I thought that might be the only names you came up with.
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