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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing , Scottish politics , US-Libya relations , US-Scotland relations

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Old 21st August 2009, 09:59 AM   #281
E.J.Armstrong
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Since the First Minister did not make the decision (and it would not be in his power to do so) I'd rather go from what the bloke who actually made the decision said about it. Look him up.

What the First Minister said is accurate.

The vindictiveness demanded by the US government contrast with the compassion of the Scottish government. The US demands for what was in effect vengeance had no merit, or was of any evidential value nor did it help with the process of justice. As such it is irrelevant to the decision.

What would have been of value was for the US government to release all relevant documentation to the defense team at the time of the trial and since. It has not done so and for it to complain about due process is laughable as well as deeply hypocritical.

See

'...Lord Fraser, the former lord advocate who charged the man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing, has revealed he was unaware that evidence presented at his trial seems to have left Britain beforehand.

The Tory peer has told a television documentary that he did not know that a fragment of circuit board linked to the bomb had allegedly been moved to an FBI lab in Washington for analysis ahead of the trial and conviction of Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al-Megrahi.

Fraser said he would not have agreed to the step because it could have left the crown open to accusations at the trial that the circuit board could have been damaged or tampered with during the move. ...'
from http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6544162.ece

Given the number of lies the US has officially told the world in so many areas and their often demonstrated contempt for international law and the agreemenst they have signed up to he is right to feel that the evidence used to convict Megrahi has possibly been tampered with by the US government.
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Old 21st August 2009, 10:01 AM   #282
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Well considering the vast majority of Americans seem to have been completely oblivious that there was any doubt about his conviction, I am not surprised there is a split between the UK and US victims' relatives. Numbers are far less important than having fuller information.
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Old 21st August 2009, 10:01 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Somehow I thought that might be the only names you came up with.
Wow! the spokesmen speak. What a surprise! If they were not doing their job I am sure the other families would say so. The problem is they are not saying what you want so you discount them.

There were 52 British victims and 38 other nationalities and 180 Americans.
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Old 21st August 2009, 10:01 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Why shouldn't they cheer the return home of a man who may have unjustly spent years in prison?
May being the operative word.
He is convicted of killing 270 people, do you make a habit of cheering people convicted of mass murder simply because you arent quite sure he did it?
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Old 21st August 2009, 10:02 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong View Post
What the First Minister said is accurate.

...snip...
Which is entirely irrelevant to my point.
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Old 21st August 2009, 10:05 AM   #286
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There were 52 British victims
Thanks, thats all I needed.
Less than a fifth of the victims.
Now how many of the 52 families does Jim Swire pretend to speak for?
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Old 21st August 2009, 10:07 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Thanks, thats all I needed.
Less than a fifth of the victims.
Now how many of the 52 families does Jim Swire pretend to speak for?
It was readily available information have you lost the power of your hands?

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Old 21st August 2009, 10:10 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Nogbad View Post
It was readily available information have you lost the power of your hands?

No, Im leading you on a voyage of discovery and fact finding, you need to do the research to back up your earlier point, remember?
Now to my other question.
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Old 21st August 2009, 10:31 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Yeah the SNP can take some pride in snubbing their noses at the relatives of the passengers in the US.
Salmond and co are class acts.

At least we are finding out how certain lefties in the UK really feel about the mass murder of Americans; No Big Deal.
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Old 21st August 2009, 10:38 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
At least we are finding out how certain lefties in the UK really feel about the mass murder of Americans; No Big Deal.
Can you point to a particular post (or posts) that conveys this impression to you
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Old 21st August 2009, 10:44 AM   #291
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I cant imagine what would have given you that impression dudalb, its not as if the overwhelming support for the US victims relatives feelings isnt readily apparent in this thread.
Oh wait a minute...
We even have a moderator who cant understand why cheering a convicted mass murderer might seem inappropriate.

Last edited by scissorhands; 21st August 2009 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 21st August 2009, 10:52 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
By all means let this terrorist go to die a peaceful and pain-free death, just like his vcitims.
This is an interesting point of debate you have made through your sarcasm.

I am torn. Having not been in the same place situation wise as a victim family member, I am unsure how I would feel, but...

Is not what the Scottish Govt did the "Christian" thing to do. To not seek eye for an eye, but rather to treat others as you would be treated, to show mercy where you were shown none?

Just a point for thought and debate.

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Old 21st August 2009, 10:52 AM   #293
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A Lot of commentators in the US are suggesting this is being partly done as a delibertate snub to the US by the SNP.
If true, way to go,guys.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:00 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A Lot of commentators in the US are suggesting this is being partly done as a delibertate snub to the US by the SNP.
If true, way to go,guys.
Id say those commentators have hit the nail on the head there.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:04 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A Lot of commentators in the US are suggesting this is being partly done as a delibertate snub to the US by the SNP.
If true, way to go,guys.
Well if it is any consolation dudalb the commentators are wrong and are being mischievous to boot. There has not been a word said against the US by the SNP on the matter. There was not even any complaint or accusation of pressure or interference.

I think Obama might have a little more to say than the decision was "a mistake" if it was some weird attempt to upset the US. FFS! the SNP spent a fair bit of effort in the first half of this year on the homecoming events and there have been lots of things put on for US citizens of Scots descent. Why on earth would the commentators make that leap?

Is there a danger that the US media is developing some kind of paranoia that every decision made abroad is designed to slight the US?
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:06 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Any budding terrorists out there who want to commit mass murder by blowing up airliners?
Heres a tip.
Make sure you do it over Scotland.
Why?

Because you don't like compassion?

Scottish people died in the atrocity. We still can show compassion. I commend it to you. I would not want to live in a compassionless society. I don't want live at the same level as the terrorists who show no compassion.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:07 AM   #297
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There has not been a word said against the US by the SNP on the matter. There was not even any complaint or accusation of pressure or interference.
Thats true, the SNP simply ignored them.

Last edited by scissorhands; 21st August 2009 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:08 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Thats true, the SNP simply ignored them.
Yes but they did so politely and without malice of aforethought.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:09 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Thats true, the SNP simply ignored them.
You think foreign powers should have influence over a country's legal matters?
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:10 AM   #300
E.J.Armstrong
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Kill 270 people in cold blood and you will get to spend your dying days with your family giving you big hugs.
Many other countries would have simply executed you.
Scotland is a good choice for terrorist activities.
That is why Scotland does not have the same values as countries that kill their prisoners like China, USA, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Thankfully Scotland has higher values than that. Have you ever heard of innocent people being found guilty?

I hope you or your children are never found guilty of a murder you did not commit in a country with the death penalty. You wouldn't be able to come here and post if you did.
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Last edited by E.J.Armstrong; 21st August 2009 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:11 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Nogbad View Post
Yes but they did so politely and without malice of aforethought.
They politely ignored them.

They politely ignored the opinion of a country where the vast majority of the victims came from.

Sound any better?
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:14 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Policenaut View Post
CNN is all over this story. Wolf was grilling MacAskill.
And? I trust Kenny introduced CNN to the novel concept of compassion.

Go Kenny go.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:15 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
They politely ignored them.

They politely ignored the opinion of a country where the vast majority of the victims came from.

Sound any better?
Countries do not have opinions, individuals do.

The Scottish justice system does not allow ANY victim a right of veto over release on compassionate grounds. If that does not meet with your approval, then I am guessing we will manage to struggle on somehow.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:19 AM   #304
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They didn't ignore them. They heard the representations of the US government and they also heard the views of the victims' relatives, along with other people who had an interest

The decision lay with the Scottish Justice Minister. He took that decision in full knowledge of all the relevant facts and in accord with Scottish law. That is as it should be.

If you wish to give american victims a right of decision making on a matter of scottish law then so far as I am concerned you can whistle for it
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:20 AM   #305
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Countries do not have opinions, individuals do.
Oh rly?
Countries often have governments elected by their people.
Ive never heard of a government without an opinion about anything before.
Can you name one?
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:20 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
He had a trial and was found guilty of killing 270 people in cold blood.
My point is that many countries would have executed him for that.
Hes lucky that he blew up that airliner over Scotland, because not only did he avoid execution, he also gets to spend his dying days at home surrounded by his family getting quality time.
If only his victims had got some quality time with their families before they died.
Oh well.
As I said if any budding terrorists fancy a bit of "compassion" after a mass murder spree, then make sure you commit your terrorist activities in Scotland.
And preferably when the SNP are in power too.
That helps when murdering Americans.
Scottish people were murdered too. Despite that Scotland does not stoop to the level of murdering its prisoners. It is a better country than that.

Those who don't like compassion should perhaps take themselves somewhere else to live so they don't vomit over their breakfast newspapers every morning - especially as we don't kill yet another one of our prisoners. It must be tough living in the UK when death sentences supporters don't get their sick thrill of seeing people murdered by the state.

You keep forgetting the bit about getting terminal cancer but ho hum.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:22 AM   #307
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They didn't ignore them. They heard the representations of the US government and they also heard the views of the victims' relatives,
And ignored them....
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:25 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Nogbad View Post
Well if it is any consolation dudalb the commentators are wrong and are being mischievous to boot. There has not been a word said against the US by the SNP on the matter. There was not even any complaint or accusation of pressure or interference.

I think Obama might have a little more to say than the decision was "a mistake" if it was some weird attempt to upset the US. FFS! the SNP spent a fair bit of effort in the first half of this year on the homecoming events and there have been lots of things put on for US citizens of Scots descent. Why on earth would the commentators make that leap?

Is there a danger that the US media is developing some kind of paranoia that every decision made abroad is designed to slight the US?
Developing?

This is the country of "freedom fries" remember. The US press went through that particular looking glass a long time ago.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:26 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
And ignored them....
Disagree and ignore have different meanings. You should try looking them up in a good dictionary.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:26 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Minadin View Post
Zacarias Moussaoui was convicted in the USA (where we're known for barbaristic practices like executing criminals, right?) of conspiring to murder nearly 3,000 innocent people (not all Americans) in a terrorist plot, but he also received a life sentence.
So?

Are you really trying to hold the US justice system up to Scottish people as a role model? That would be ludicrous if you were given the behaviour of your government in recent years. Ever heard of the official torture programme and how the US government, US military all US medical establishment all participated or connived to support that programme.

The USA also does indeed have the barbaric habit of murdering many of its prisoners. Scotland has better standards than that. Can I suggest you would be better off trying to make your own system more humane? We also don't actually care what the US thinks about freeing Megrahi.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:29 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
You think foreign powers should have influence over a country's legal matters?
I think you'll find that the normal position in the US is that the legal systems of every other country in the world should be profoundly swayed by the opinions of the US government, but that it would be a terrible scandal for anyone in the US legal system to even acknowledge the existence of nations other than the US.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:31 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Scotland is a good choice for terrorist activities.

Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
And preferably when the SNP are in power too.
That helps when murdering Americans.

Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
The SNP are a disgrace and should hang their heads in shame for dragging Scotlands reputation through the mud.

Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
It was a decision motivated by oil deals and petty political posturing by the SNP.
What a disgrace to Scotland they are.

Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Yeah the SNP can take some pride in snubbing their noses at the relatives of the passengers in the US.
Salmond and co are class acts.

Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Thats true, the SNP simply ignored them.

You know what? I've debated on enough political boards to recognise the Labour party "Little red book of how to slag off the SNP" when I see it. You've never posted anywhere as "Hamish" or "Natty Dread", I don't suppose?

Knock off the stock Labour cut'n'paste, and you might be taken a bit more seriously.

Rolfe.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:32 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong View Post
Scottish people were murdered too. Despite that Scotland does not stoop to the level of murdering its prisoners. It is a better country than that.

Those who don't like compassion should perhaps take themselves somewhere else to live so they don't vomit over their breakfast newspapers every morning - especially as we don't kill yet another one of our prisoners. It must be tough living in the UK when death sentences supporters don't get their sick thrill of seeing people murdered by the state.

You keep forgetting the bit about getting terminal cancer but ho hum.
Im all for compassion.
Compassion for the victims families tends to be forefront though, compassion for the mass murderer who killed their loved ones?
Not so much.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:35 AM   #314
E.J.Armstrong
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Fine that you personally think that, but have you ever been personally damaged by the actions of a terrorist?
My uncle was murdered by a terrorist bomb and his wife and children were lucky to survive. None of us demanded the death penalty. We supported the prisoner release scheme in order to try and bring peace to Northern Ireland.

Not all victims families are as bloodthirsty as many of those in the USA.

Not all victim's families believe in Usan old testament style retribution and vindictiveness.

In Scotland we have higher values than that and do not share those values with the USA. A fact that thankfully is becoming very well known around the UK as the whinging vengefulness of the USA is broadcast in our media and as the rabid US right lie about our NHS in order to stop their fellow Usans getting a decent health service.

We are simply not going to implement Usan inhumanity into our legal system. Get used to it.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:35 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You know what? I've debated on enough political boards to recognise the Labour party "Little red book of how to slag off the SNP" when I see it. You've never posted anywhere as "Hamish" or "Natty Dread", I don't suppose?

Knock off the stock Labour cut'n'paste, and you might be taken a bit more seriously.

Rolfe.
HAHAHA.
Now you are reduced to rambling about political smears and spooks trying to defame your precious party!

Too funny.

No I havent posted anywhere under those names.

Take it to the CT section where it belongs.

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Old 21st August 2009, 11:48 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I see that nobody has commented on the fact that this terrorist (who just may be innocent like so many others) was given a hero's welcome in Libya.

Is it at all possible that his triumphant return may encourage others to become terrorists themselves? The propaganda value to al Qaeda must be enormous.
It is also possible that the sky will fall. The propaganda value to little green men will be enormous when that happen.

Long live good old Usan scaremongering. How blatant can you make it without everyone laughing themselves senseless?

It is offensive if the people were celebrating a crime but the USA does control what happens in other sovereign states - no matter how offensive to your sensibilities. Many people in many countries were offended by the official US torture programme but what did the USA do about it before the election?
Effectively sod all. Perhaps you could look at the beam in your own eye for once?
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“Everybody is somebody’s Jew. And today the Palestinians are the Jews of the Israelis.” Primo Levi
Capitalist (n) Someone who pays himself and his friends billions of dollars of your money as a reward for destroying your entire economy.
Israelis are taught that Palestinians are not human beings like them. Gideon Levy The Punishment of Gaza
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:52 AM   #317
E.J.Armstrong
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,806
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
For what its worth, Im half Scottish and half English and I live in Wales.
I hate nationalists with a vengeance.
Whatever their nationality, I dont discriminate in my loathing of them.
Its good to not discriminate, after all.
You do know you are using a Usan flag in your avatar and have effectively ignored the Scottish dead at Lockerbie in some of your posts?

Can I suggest reason rather than hate? Hate is not something to be proud of.
__________________
“Everybody is somebody’s Jew. And today the Palestinians are the Jews of the Israelis.” Primo Levi
Capitalist (n) Someone who pays himself and his friends billions of dollars of your money as a reward for destroying your entire economy.
Israelis are taught that Palestinians are not human beings like them. Gideon Levy The Punishment of Gaza
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:53 AM   #318
scissorhands
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Quote:
We are simply not going to implement Usan inhumanity into our legal system. Get used to it.
Whats a Usan?
If you mean the USA then what kind of inhumanity do you think the USA is trying to introduce into the Scottish system?
Keeping a mass murderer in prison is fairly normal procedure worldwide.
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:54 AM   #319
E.J.Armstrong
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Posts: 3,806
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Megrahi looked a lot better getting off the plane, punching the air, then he did getting on.

And?
__________________
“Everybody is somebody’s Jew. And today the Palestinians are the Jews of the Israelis.” Primo Levi
Capitalist (n) Someone who pays himself and his friends billions of dollars of your money as a reward for destroying your entire economy.
Israelis are taught that Palestinians are not human beings like them. Gideon Levy The Punishment of Gaza
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:55 AM   #320
scissorhands
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Quote:
Hate is not something to be proud of.
Its something you show buckets of every time you post anything about the USA.
Are you proud?
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