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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing , Scottish politics , US-Libya relations , US-Scotland relations

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Old 21st August 2009, 12:00 PM   #321
Rolfe
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Oh well, can't embed this.

Here's the link.
http://www.channel4.com/news/article...l+done/3317187
Go to "Oliver Miles Interview", second screen down.

This is an interview with the former ambassador to Libya, explaining how Tony Blair thought he could "deal with it all quite simply" by arranging for Megrahi to be returned under the prisoner transfer arrangement. I think Miles believes that it was the Westminster government who put the pressure on Megrahi to withdraw his appeal.

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Last edited by Rolfe; 21st August 2009 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:01 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Unpalatable but yes as it brought about a peace process.
You are a hypocrite then

Originally Posted by scissorhands
What part of my second sentence did you not understand?
Here I will repeat it for you.
Get it yet?
Repeating irrellevancies to make you feel better about being a hypocrite is not woith a comment. Its OK for the UK govt to release terrorists early but not the SNP govt.

Originally Posted by scissorhands
BS.
It was a decision motivated by oil deals and petty political posturing by the SNP.
What a disgrace to Scotland they are.
Prove it and then see about that chip on your shoulder. It's a nasty thing to witness.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:02 PM   #323
E.J.Armstrong
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Originally Posted by Policenaut View Post
This compassion rule seems ill conceived. I think your system already shows more than enough compassion by not having a death penalty. Compassion to the prisoner and his family is also a slap in the face to the victims. I'm speaking generally here and not to this specific case because I don't know enough about it. But like I said last night Wolf was grilling your justice secretary. I haven't really seen him go after someone that hard before.
It may seem ill conceived to people who do not understand the new testament idea of forgiveness, turning the other cheek, helping the poor and other simple Christian sentiments like that however I hope that 'Wolf' was introduced to the clearly novel concept of compassion by our heroic justice secretary who should receive his man of the millennium trophy immediately.

PS

One 'Kenny' trumps ten 'Wolves' any time.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:04 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Where was all that "compassion" when the Scottish system railroaded this poor slob?
you seem to think there is some doubt about his guilt. That being apparently the case why should he not be freed on compassionate grounds.

Shome unshertainty in your thesis shurely methinks.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:04 PM   #325
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Quote:
Repeating irrellevancies to make you feel better about being a hypocrite is not woith a comment. Its OK for the UK govt to release terrorists early but not the SNP govt.
You still havent managed to work out why the two situations arent analagous?
Wow.
Try again.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:07 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Thanks, thats all I needed.
Less than a fifth of the victims.
Now how many of the 52 families does Jim Swire pretend to speak for?
Did the attack take place in the US and did they prosecute him and convict him?
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:09 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
You still havent managed to work out why the two situations arent analagous?
Wow.
Try again.
UK govt release convicted terrorist killers early.

Scots govt release 1 convicted terrorist killer early

You're right it is not the same. The UK govt were worse. Remind me who released Ronnie Biggs recently.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:10 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
...Salmond and co are class acts.
Yes they are.

Standing up to the US government has shown many other countries around the world the way to behave including, hopefully, the UK government for once.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:11 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Id say those commentators have hit the nail on the head there.
Then you would be wrong again The Scots need the US. They did not like Bush but Obama is another matter.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:15 PM   #330
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Quote:
Did the attack take place in the US and did they prosecute him and convict him?
Why ask questions that you know the answer to?

You failed to answer my question above, again.
Explain how the two situations regarding release of terrorists are analagous?
Simple no?

I feel a serious SNP rear guard action taking place here and its not pretty.
Anything to absolve your party will do, at this stage.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:16 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
HAHAHA.
Now you are reduced to rambling about political smears and spooks trying to defame your precious party!

Too funny.

No I havent posted anywhere under those names.

Take it to the CT section where it belongs.
You're the one making the CT claims about oil deals. (with no back up)
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:16 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
About what exactly? Compassion?

Unlike the US government apparently, the Scottish government knows it has no control over another sovereign country and luckily the Scottish government correctly rebuffed the US government's many sad attempts to get us to behave as inhumanely as them.

The Scotland government correctly followed Scottish law. Live with it, or not, as you wish, because there is nothing the US government can do to change it.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:19 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Why ask questions that you know the answer to?
Because you singlarly fail to display any ounce of understanding of simple points.

Originally Posted by scissorhands
You failed to answer my question above, again.
Explain how the two situations regarding release of terrorists are analagous?
Simple no?

I feel a serious SNP rear guard action taking place here and its not pretty.
Anything to absolve your party will do, at this stage.
I already explained why they are analagous. The fact you cannot see it says more about your blind hate than it does me.

I will say it again

Two govts released terrorist killers early. Is that a fair assessment of what happened? If not why not?
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:19 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which is entirely irrelevant to my point.
Why?

Your turn.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:22 PM   #335
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Quote:
Two govts released terrorist killers early. Is that a fair assessment of what happened? If not why not?
And what were the circumstances during the time of their release?
What was the reasoning behind the prisoner releases?
You will get there eventually.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:24 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
And what were the circumstances during the time of their release?
What was the reasoning behind the prisoner releases?
You will get there eventually.
No I will not because there is no difference. Guilty men were released early by the politicians.

The reasons are moot. The fact is they were freed. You are a hypocrite.

Remind me again who releaseed Ronnie Biggs and why?
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:26 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
At least we are finding out how certain lefties in the UK really feel about the mass murder of Americans; No Big Deal.
This should be good.

What lefties exactly? The good ones or the evil ones? The light ones or the dark ones? Perhaps you mean the fat lefties (the particularly scary ones )or was that the thin ones? Perhaps you mean the left handed ones? Perhaps you will be so kind as to tell us all what exactly you do mean?

You might also tell us where is any of that supported by this thread?
I happen to notice that you failed to support your assertion with something akin to a fact. Not even one. Perhaps that is just what scary lefties do?
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:29 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Megrahi looked a lot better getting off the plane, punching the air, then he did getting on.

I've seen the Tripoli footage in better closeup now, and apart from the short section where one of the welcoming party raises Megrahi's hand, he didn't do anything close to punching the air.

I don't know how you can say how he looked when he got on the plane, because he had his face covered. And if that's a "sharp suit" he had on when he got off (as another poster said) then I can only say sartorial standards have slipped in recent years.

I was quite shocked by the way he looked in these shots - we'd been shown stock shots that were probably eight years old, but even so.... It was just such a nasty reminder of my own cousin who died of the same disease some years ago. And then to see someone of my own age looking like that - not nice.

I don't know how I'd feel if this was Harold Shipman or Fred West or one of these people we know for sure were guilty. However, I've been aware there was a good chance Megrahi was framed since before Camp Zeist, and I can't watch any of that without thinking, what a terrible thing to happen to someone who isn't guilty, and that's exactly how it might be.

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Old 21st August 2009, 12:29 PM   #339
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E.J.:

In large part I think I err on the side you argue for. As I said in my earlier post, I think what the Scottish govt did, is by the Christian standard, the thing to do...to show mercy where none was shown to thee.

That said, one has to understand the extreme anger, and need for revenge that is human nature, regardless of religious affiliation. I have no idea how I would react if I had lost someone due to this maniac, and now had to watch him not only freed, but arrive home to a "celebration".

I do think though, that there is a reason why laws should be made by civil, insightful men and women at a time when they are not clouded in thought by related events or their ties to them.

TAM
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:32 PM   #340
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No I will not because there is no difference. Guilty men were released early by the politicians.
You have entered denial.
Its not hard to work out what the differences are between the two cases, a little bit of knowledge of the situation in NI and the situation re Libya would go a long way to helping you out.
This is becoming little different to debating with truthers.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:34 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Id say those commentators have hit the nail on the head there.
You don't seem to know what you think.

You previously stated: -

'...There was zero reason to free this mass murderer other than to secure some oil deals with Libya. ...'

So what is it snub to the USA or oil deals?

Care to show us all your avowed hatred for the SNP some more?
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:38 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
You have entered denial.
Its not hard to work out what the differences are between the two cases, a little bit of knowledge of the situation in NI and the situation re Libya would go a long way to helping you out.
This is becoming little different to debating with truthers.
Care to show me exactly what is wrong with what I said was the same between the two situations? Was my claim correct?

I know all about NI, I served during the troubles. I have also been to Libya working.

How about you? You are the one who avoiding answering questions and failing to back up your outrageous claims. You are more like that guy in your avatar every post.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:40 PM   #343
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Quote:
You don't seem to know what you think.

You previously stated: -

'...There was zero reason to free this mass murderer other than to secure some oil deals with Libya. ...'

So what is it snub to the USA or oil deals?

Care to show us all your avowed hatred for the SNP some more?

I also explained that petty political posturing by the SNP had a lot to do with this.
Funny you forgot to mention that?
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:41 PM   #344
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And another similarity, in both cases the opposition to the releases by families of victims were "ignored".
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:44 PM   #345
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I know all about NI, I served during the troubles. I have also been to Libya working.
Then you would know the circumstances for the release of prisoners and what it was intended to achieve, wouldnt you?

Explain that, then we can move on to why you think the release of a convicted mass murderer from Libya is analagous?
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:51 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
I also explained that petty political posturing by the SNP had a lot to do with this.
Funny you forgot to mention that?
Think you need to consult a dictionary again.

Explain does not mean "claimed without any evidence".
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:52 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Then you would know the circumstances for the release of prisoners and what it was intended to achieve, wouldnt you?

Explain that, then we can move on to why you think the release of a convicted mass murderer from Libya is analagous?
Then it still is irrelevant to the priciple of the release of a guilty murderer. Govts do it. The situation of the release is of zero consequence. The principle is the same. You want tp pick and choose who is released and only care about victims families feelings when it suits you.

The analogy is the release of a guilty man. Not the reasons for it. You either agree with releasing guilty men early or you dont. If you pick and choose based on who did it then that is wrong.

Who released Ronnie Biggs? For what reason?
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:57 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Then it still is irrelevant to the priciple of the release of a guilty murderer. Govts do it. The situation of the release is of zero consequence. The principle is the same. You want tp pick and choose who is released and only care about victims families feelings when it suits you.

The analogy is the release of a guilty man. Not the reasons for it. You either agree with releasing guilty men early or you dont. If you pick and choose based on who did it then that is wrong.

Who released Ronnie Biggs? For what reason?
What he is saying is that it is wrong for the SNP to do it for (according to him) political reasons.

But it is not wrong for Labour to do it for (according to him) political reasons.

Of course that doesn't make sense, but then again given his posts in this thread, that should hardly be a surprise.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:57 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Im all for compassion.
Compassion for the victims families tends to be forefront though, compassion for the mass murderer who killed their loved ones?
Not so much.
Luckily the Scottish legal system does not share your lack of compassion or your lack of acknowledgement in a number of your posts that Scottish people died in the atrocity.
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Old 21st August 2009, 12:59 PM   #350
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The NI prisoners were released as part of the normalisation process to bring Unionist and Nationalist groups back into the mainstream political fold..culminating in Adams and Paisley sitting around the table sharing a joke.

Libya on the other is about normalising relations and bringing the country back into the international political and economic fold...culminating in Gadaffi going to Italy on a State visit (somewhat eccentrically attired and with gorgeous body guards) and sharing a joke with Berlusconi (who probably thought the bodyguard thing was rather nifty)

No similarity whatsoever in the backdrop really.
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Old 21st August 2009, 01:00 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Then it still is irrelevant to the priciple of the release of a guilty murderer. Govts do it. The situation of the release is of zero consequence. The principle is the same. You want tp pick and choose who is released and only care about victims families feelings when it suits you.

The analogy is the release of a guilty man. Not the reasons for it. You either agree with releasing guilty men early or you dont. If you pick and choose based on who did it then that is wrong.

Who released Ronnie Biggs? For what reason?
So you served in NI (and I do have respect for you for doing so), yet you are unable to explain what the reasoning was behind the release of prisoners?
And you consider that the release of a convicted mass murderer from Libya as being basically the same?
Ronnie Biggs killed no-one, never mind 270 people, Im lost as to why you bring him up.

Last edited by scissorhands; 21st August 2009 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 21st August 2009, 01:00 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Whats a Usan?
If you mean the USA then what kind of inhumanity do you think the USA is trying to introduce into the Scottish system?
Keeping a mass murderer in prison is fairly normal procedure worldwide.
Usan is a term the refers collectively to the people of the USA.

The inhumane notion that vengeance is all and that prisoners near death cannot be allowed out on compassionate grounds.

Once again you ignore his fatal disease and imminent death. That is the inhumanity I am talking about.
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Old 21st August 2009, 01:05 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Its something you show buckets of every time you post anything about the USA.
Are you proud?
That is something you have just made up.

I notice that you have failed to provide one single word of mine to support your assertion.

You do know that the truth does not consist of what you assert.

Care to support your allegation with one or two words of mine - once you've decided what you do think was the reason for Megrahi's release.

You are the only one on this thread that I am aware of who has proudly asserted his hatred of anything.
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Old 21st August 2009, 01:18 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
May being the operative word.
He is convicted of killing 270 people, do you make a habit of cheering people convicted of mass murder simply because you arent quite sure he did it?

I don't think Professor Yaffle was cheering. I don't think anyone on this forum was cheering.

Can you produce one single person who was in that crowd who just "wasn't quite sure" he did it?

Thought not.

If one of my countrymen had been set up and framed for an atrocity he didn't commit, and imprisoned, and seemed likely to die in prison, and remember I'm quite certain he's innocent, you know I might go the airport and cheer a bit when he was released too. No matter who told me I should keep quiet because it might upset someone.

It's ridiculous to criticise the behaviour of the Libyans on the assumption that they share your belief in his guilt.

Rolfe.
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Old 21st August 2009, 01:19 PM   #355
E.J.Armstrong
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
E.J.:

In large part I think I err on the side you argue for. As I said in my earlier post, I think what the Scottish govt did, is by the Christian standard, the thing to do...to show mercy where none was shown to thee.

That said, one has to understand the extreme anger, and need for revenge that is human nature, regardless of religious affiliation. I have no idea how I would react if I had lost someone due to this maniac, and now had to watch him not only freed, but arrive home to a "celebration".

I do think though, that there is a reason why laws should be made by civil, insightful men and women at a time when they are not clouded in thought by related events or their ties to them.

TAM
I think everyone understands anger at the atrocity at Lockerbie. The difference seems to reside in the treatment of the only man found guilty. In that regard you make a good point about laws made in anger and/or haste. The compassion 'law' was not one of them.

It is remarkable the apparent difference between what I have called the old versus new testament approaches on the different sides of the atlantic. I do not understand why it exists (if it does in reality but I have never heard one UK family complain about Megrahi's release. They wanted to know the whole story and like me are afraid that it will not now come out).

The Scottish government has no control over what Libyans do in their own country, they could only follow the law of Scotland. Having done so they have stated they were disgusted by the apparent celebration and if it was to celebrate the deaths of 270 people I would agree.
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Old 21st August 2009, 01:21 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
You mean you were speculating?
OK.

You watched that video link yet? The Oliver Miles interview?

Rolfe.
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Old 21st August 2009, 01:26 PM   #357
E.J.Armstrong
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
I also explained that petty political posturing by the SNP had a lot to do with this.
Funny you forgot to mention that?
So when you used the word 'zero' in your claim namely that: -

'...There was zero reason to free this mass murderer other than to secure some oil deals with Libya. ...'

it just wasn't true because you actually thought there were two reasons.

So do you believe there is only one reason, two reasons or more reasons you have yet to come up with because of your proudly stated hatred of nationalists?

Hatred is such a confusing emotion isn't it?
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Old 21st August 2009, 01:27 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong View Post
I think everyone understands anger at the atrocity at Lockerbie. The difference seems to reside in the treatment of the only man found guilty.

But clearly, even if he was, he wasn't the only one who was guilty. He didn't just dream this idea up all by himself and decide to bomb an airliner. He was an intelligence agent, not Osama bin Laden.

So who did?

Well, if you adhere to the Official Version, Gaddafi did that bit. Because of a series of US bombing raids on Libyan cities in 1986, launched from UK air bases, in which his step-daughter was killed and which were believed to be aimed at killing him.

So what the hell is the point in demonising a terminally ill catspaw, while shaking the hand of the man who planned and ordered the atrocity?

Rolfe.
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Old 21st August 2009, 01:29 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong View Post
Usan is a term the refers collectively to the people of the USA.

The inhumane notion that vengeance is all and that prisoners near death cannot be allowed out on compassionate grounds.

Once again you ignore his fatal disease and imminent death. That is the inhumanity I am talking about.
And Im supposed be compassionate to someone who murdered 270 people in cold blood, none of which got any kind of time with their relatives prior to their deaths?
Nah, he should have been dropped out of an airplane without a parachute, a long time ago.
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Old 21st August 2009, 01:37 PM   #360
E.J.Armstrong
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Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Anyone can read your posts E.J, they are some of the most twisted and hateful posts on the whole forum and there are way too many to count.
Its laughable that you would bother trying to deny this.

Now go away.
Once again you have just made that up. You still seem to be confused about what you think the reason for the release of Megrahi was and that you simply asserting something does not make it true.

I notice once again that you failed to provide one word of mine to support your allegations. I take it that is because you have been utterly unable to find one that supports your fantasy even though there are apparently too many for your counting abilities. Odd.

You also need to know that I have not in the past do not now and will not in the future obey people who order me about in your very intemperate way.

Can I suggest that if you want anyone to take you seriously you actually find some evidence to support your claims?
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