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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Ahmed Jibril , Lockerbie bombing , Pan Am 103 , Scotland issues , US-Scotland relations

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Old 31st May 2010, 08:55 PM   #1
Caustic Logic
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Lockerbie bomber alive after 9 months

If you'll recall, convicted Lockerbie bomber Abdul al Megrahi was released from prison last year on "compassionate grounds." That meant he was likely to die within three months.

Back on May 20 we passed the nine months mark (since release, not the even earlier diagnosis), and he's still alive. Beats the record for convicted killers surviving after release. Suspicions are growing over that diagnosis. BP may as well have written it up.

So what do we do now? Are sporadic boycotts of Scotland sufficient? Should we send in mercenaries? Maybe even into Libya? Was Obama at fault? Can those doctors be jailed? Bomb Libya for good this time? Here are some excellent (if dated) recommendations from Americans from last year, mostly just about Megrahi personally:

Quote:
maybe we can shoot the plane down and speed the process up a bit.

Cut the bastards throat

He should have been taken apart with a pair of pliars and a blowtorch, slowly.

We should have put him down

This beast deserves no compassion, none. Let him die in prison.

I hope the manhunt is on!

Send Blackwater after him.

May the bastard die a painful death in Libya.

No pain medication. He should suffer as his victims did
http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news...7983#c14487983

Anyone with more current ideas, now that the plane has landed and he continues to taunt us with continued breathing? Is it too late for the torture?

Please everyone, refrain from mentioning how this monster might be innocent or this will be sent to the CT forum. Just normal politics as far as this thread is concerned - convicted mass-murdering terrorist Islamist scum set free and what now? Who pays and how?
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Old 31st May 2010, 09:00 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
convicted mass-murdering terrorist Islamist scum set free and what now? Who pays and how?
That's the point. He was found guilty and nothing has changed that. Scotland has made a mistake it should be embarrassed about.
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Old 31st May 2010, 09:36 PM   #3
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
That's the point. He was found guilty and nothing has changed that. Scotland has made a mistake it should be embarrassed about.
Good. No conter-measures specified, but some natural indignation.

Also, I mant to note that today is a good day for this thread, being Memorial Day, in remembrance of the US military personnell that died on the dark December night. Megrahi was convicted of killing them, so doesn't everyone agree he should pay the full price?
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Old 31st May 2010, 09:44 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Good. No conter-measures specified, but some natural indignation.

Also, I mant to note that today is a good day for this thread, being Memorial Day, in remembrance of the US military personnell that died on the dark December night. Megrahi was convicted of killing them, so doesn't everyone agree he should pay the full price?
Nah. That case was a travesty.
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Old 31st May 2010, 09:49 PM   #5
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Shucks you guys........Is it time to rerun your "feelings" that something just isn't right here.


I'd just like to add I really, really really, hate murderers. which is better than someone who really, really hates murderers but not as good as someone who really, really, really, really hates murderers.


May I also add that I support the concepts of rule of law and an independent Judiciarry. Dammit scotland.....what makes you think you can do that in scotland....applying scottish laws and legal practices.....


plus the diagnosis is a fraud....got no evidence but every so often I like to express it as a feeling.
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Old 31st May 2010, 10:31 PM   #6
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I say we invade and liberate them from their monarchic oppressors.

I also have really strong condemnations! Very, very outraged! Why did they listen to some "doctor" about his health?! Morons!
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:03 PM   #7
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
I say we invade and liberate them from their monarchic oppressors.

I also have really strong condemnations! Very, very outraged! Why did they listen to some "doctor" about his health?! Morons!
Awesome! You may not be American, but you're okay. Wait - Neverland, like outside LA? Nevermind... I suppose this thread is a little bit fishing. I remember those good ol days threads from last September where people just vent. Wanted to host one of my own, now that there's another nine months worth of indignation.

So far it's not as fiery as I'd hoped, but ah well
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:05 PM   #8
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by quixotecoyote View Post
Nah. That case was a travesty.
Please take your doubts to the CT forum. Convicted is all that should matter here, in a world that must be governed by laws. Convicted murderer of fully 270 people, who were largely alive as they fell six miles.


Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Shucks you guys........Is it time to rerun your "feelings" that something just isn't right here.


I'd just like to add I really, really really, hate murderers. which is better than someone who really, really hates murderers but not as good as someone who really, really, really, really hates murderers.


May I also add that I support the concepts of rule of law and an independent Judiciarry. Dammit scotland.....what makes you think you can do that in scotland....applying scottish laws and legal practices.....


plus the diagnosis is a fraud....got no evidence but every so often I like to express it as a feeling.
I'm likeing the elipses!

American family members WERE led to believe, once by someone (I hear), that Megrahi would definitely die in jail there, hopefully in misery. If those weren't Scotlands rules, shouldn't they have been changed? After all, this is Susan Cohen et al, American, proud, loud, and righteously bereaved. I've heard that around. What does anyone say?
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:54 PM   #9
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well considering only that he is convicted, i say he should die in jail.

but it might be that there is indeed real doubt about that conviction.
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:55 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
but it might be that there is indeed real doubt about that conviction.
Jeez, read the OP. Take that to CT.
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Old 1st June 2010, 12:08 AM   #11
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Well I never had any problems believing the diagnosis and prognosis estimate were kosher, but I hate that one of the main docs involved seems to be so dodgy... The dodginess doesn't seem to be in the arena of faking a diagnosis but it does make it harder for me to put faith in him.
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Old 1st June 2010, 12:27 AM   #12
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A patient in that condition in the UK would be on palliative care only for the primary condition. There are reports - hard to confirm - that he's been receiving active treatment on the cancer, including chemotherapy. If true this might have slowed down its progress.

In the end such diagnoses aren't a precise science.
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Old 1st June 2010, 02:03 AM   #13
Caustic Logic
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DC: That doubt was just general enough, but it is OT to go further.

On death for killers I'm not real strong either way. I don't personally think it helps anything, but if someone who's really hurting from a murder thinks it'll help THEM, I won't stand in the way.

That was always out with Megrahi, if I'm not mistaken. Life was the harshest option, and as I gather in Europe that usually means 20ish years usually, or until you're olld, or about to die. Generally, one isn't to actually die in jail. So ...

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Well I never had any problems believing the diagnosis and prognosis estimate were kosher, but I hate that one of the main docs involved seems to be so dodgy... The dodginess doesn't seem to be in the arena of faking a diagnosis but it does make it harder for me to put faith in him.
I have not studies the details of that prognosis (or wasn't it plural?). But from a distance, the things i hear, I'm not really trusting. It seems less like good science and more like some kind of deal. To discuss what I suspect was traded for this early ticket home would take us off topic. But I suspect a deal. That said...
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
A patient in that condition in the UK would be on palliative care only for the primary condition. There are reports - hard to confirm - that he's been receiving active treatment on the cancer, including chemotherapy. If true this might have slowed down its progress.

In the end such diagnoses aren't a precise science.
Exactly as well. When three months passed, people were being silly to get mad that he was still alive. You do have to admit that gets less silly each month, but the principle still holds. For all we know that was a good prognosis and he's just defied it with unexpected changes. Being home and in better spirits is miracle medicine.

But does Megrahi deserve better spirits when he was convicted of plotting the deaths of hundreds?

I was liking the Buddha's idea above. To the shores of tripoli again?
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Old 1st June 2010, 08:10 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
Shucks you guys........Is it time to rerun your "feelings" that something just isn't right here.


I'd just like to add I really, really really, hate murderers. which is better than someone who really, really hates murderers but not as good as someone who really, really, really, really hates murderers.


May I also add that I support the concepts of rule of law and an independent Judiciarry. Dammit scotland.....what makes you think you can do that in scotland....applying scottish laws and legal practices.....


plus the diagnosis is a fraud....got no evidence but every so often I like to express it as a feeling.
This was mocked at the time, that they were dupes. IIRC, I even posted something wondering what the dupes (many of you here) would say when, not if, he doesn't die on schedule.

Science. Theory. Prediction. Results in accordance with prediction. Umm, yey. QED: Scottland was a bunch of dupes.
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Old 1st June 2010, 08:12 AM   #15
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com...64#post5047264

Suppose the two oncologists and two urologists who provided written documentation about al-Megrahi's condition were wrong. Suppose al-Megrahi double crosses them and lives years instead of months?
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Old 1st June 2010, 08:22 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
This was mocked at the time, that they were dupes. IIRC, I even posted something wondering what the dupes (many of you here) would say when, not if, he doesn't die on schedule.

Science. Theory. Prediction. Results in accordance with prediction. Umm, yey. QED: Scottland was a bunch of dupes.
Nonsense they just have incompetent doctors. Look at the put up job Steven Hawking has been doing for years. Like anyone with ALS lives that long.

Also, how is this an issue for American politics?
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Old 1st June 2010, 08:42 AM   #17
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Ronnie Biggs, released at about the same time, also still alive. He only thumbed his nose at the law, rather than taking his punishment like a man though, so there's no real fuss made about him.
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Old 1st June 2010, 08:56 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Nonsense they just have incompetent doctors. Look at the put up job Steven Hawking has been doing for years. Like anyone with ALS lives that long.

Also, how is this an issue for American politics?
It's showing off the dangers of socialized health care.
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Old 1st June 2010, 08:58 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
This was mocked at the time, that they were dupes. IIRC, I even posted something wondering what the dupes (many of you here) would say when, not if, he doesn't die on schedule.
Yes, how telling that medical science is inaccurate on that point.

Quote:
Science. Theory. Prediction. Results in accordance with prediction. Umm, yey. QED: Scottland was a bunch of dupes.
Explain this to me. Which doctor, exactly was duping them? All of them?
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:01 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Yes, how telling that medical science is inaccurate on that point.

Explain this to me. Which doctor, exactly was duping them? All of them?
You mean witch doctor.
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:02 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Cicero View Post
You mean witch doctor.
Ha! Ha! You're so clever.

So can you tell me which doctors were part of this conspiracy?
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:17 AM   #22
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<anecdote>My Grandad's 6 month prognosis lasted 6 years.</anecdote>

Now wouldn't it be interesting to collect cancer prognoses and compare them to actual survival times so that we could obtain a probability that the prognosis was given in good faith. Anyone?
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:34 AM   #23
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I found this review of the performance of prognostic models in cancer, but I don't know whether it will tell us anything relevant:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/8/21
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:39 AM   #24
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So how many business contracts have British firms been awarded since the release?
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:42 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
Now wouldn't it be interesting to collect cancer prognoses and compare them to actual survival times so that we could obtain a probability that the prognosis was given in good faith. Anyone?
That many people outlive their prognosis is one thing. That this man in particular does is something else. I might be wrong, of course, but I will bet on him living a long and productive infidel-killing life yet. He's going to be a regular medical miracle, this man. Remember: it's the good who die young.

Last edited by Skeptic; 1st June 2010 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:46 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
That many people outlive their prognosis is one thing. That this man in particular does is something else.
Is he somehow special in that the prognosis was expected to be more accurate than they generally are?

Quote:
I might be wrong, of course, but I will bet on him living a long and productive infidel-killing life yet. He's going to be a regular medical miracle, this man. Remember: it's the good who die young.
So perhaps you can explain which of the doctors that examined him is lying.
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:48 AM   #27
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A recent report on his health. Yeah, sounds like he's doing just fan-dam-tastic.
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Old 1st June 2010, 09:55 AM   #28
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Regardless, he should have died in prison.
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Old 1st June 2010, 10:38 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Please everyone, refrain from mentioning how this monster might be innocent or this will be sent to the CT forum. Just normal politics as far as this thread is concerned - convicted mass-murdering terrorist Islamist scum set free and what now? Who pays and how?
So the conspiracy to avoid the unsafe conviction being examined in court belongs in the CT forum, but doctors being secretly paid by Libyans/Big Oil, to offer a false prognosis isn't a conspiracy?

Surely if we have to accept the conviction because the courts said so, then we have to accept that he was lucky to survive over 6 months for exactly the same reason.

End of discussion or take it to CT...
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Old 1st June 2010, 11:02 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
That's the point. He was found guilty and nothing has changed that. Scotland has made a mistake it should be embarrassed about.
Scotland did what they always do and what England does.

They gave my mother one day and she survived three.
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Old 1st June 2010, 11:04 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by willhaven View Post
Regardless, he should have died in prison.
Not your decidion to make. I could say so should have that US serviceman prosecuted for the massacre in Vietnam.
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Old 1st June 2010, 11:05 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
So how many business contracts have British firms been awarded since the release?
I work for a US comany and we have loads of contracts with Mr Gaddafi.
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Old 1st June 2010, 11:07 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
That many people outlive their prognosis is one thing. That this man in particular does is something else.
About even money, I reckon.

Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
I might be wrong, of course, but I will bet on him living a long and productive infidel-killing life yet. He's going to be a regular medical miracle, this man. Remember: it's the good who die young.
Propose your bet in terms of lifespan.
Quote mutliple odds for different lifespans.

I might be interested, but of course it depends on your odds.

Walk the walk? It will be interesting to how your actual odds square up to your bluster.
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Old 1st June 2010, 12:06 PM   #34
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I suggest we boycott Scotland. No more haggis for me!
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Old 1st June 2010, 12:59 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Not your decidion to make.
Obviously not.
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Old 1st June 2010, 01:32 PM   #36
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
So how many business contracts have British firms been awarded since the release?
Good question. This was supposed to open the way to better business dealings and some specifics would be nice (I don;t have them, no time to dig today). In fact, somehow the appalled US is now riding on their coattails it seems. See here and here.

Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
That many people outlive their prognosis is one thing. That this man in particular does is something else. I might be wrong, of course, but I will bet on him living a long and productive infidel-killing life yet. He's going to be a regular medical miracle, this man. Remember: it's the good who die young.
That's more the spirit I was hoping for. However, if his cancer isn't totally faked and he dies fairlly soon, at what is it, 57? That's fairly young. So that would mean... Also, any evidence that he's killed more infidels? He was only convicted of killing the 270, and not so much for religious reasons AFAIK. I suggest we stick to what's established.
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Old 1st June 2010, 02:07 PM   #37
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by Ocelot View Post
So the conspiracy to avoid the unsafe conviction being examined in court belongs in the CT forum, but doctors being secretly paid by Libyans/Big Oil, to offer a false prognosis isn't a conspiracy?

Surely if we have to accept the conviction because the courts said so, then we have to accept that he was lucky to survive over 6 months for exactly the same reason.

End of discussion or take it to CT...
Ooh, excellent. Hmm... well, it's experience that tells me anything with "Megrahi is innocent" reads "Megrahi framed" and gets taken to CT. So it's that specific (and fertile) line of discourse I wanted to cut off here.

Okay and Skeptic's continued Jihad theory, but hey, I'm not the boss. But the diagnosis is coming under increasingly large Q cloud.
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Old 1st June 2010, 02:08 PM   #38
Caustic Logic
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Beerina and Cicero - obviously your predictions were valid. Well, not the years one yet, and I doubt it will go that far unless the whole cancer is faked, which I find hard to accept. But then, medicines... we can only see the future when it's not.

Ponderingturtle: Well I was more concerned with American attitudes over this attack on America and an American plane, but it obviously could go in non-USA (world) politics or as it just did, it go to Social Issues.

I'm just happy with anywhere but CT, and ask everyone to continue keeping the conviction (with or without physical guilt) as the premise of everything else.
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Old 1st June 2010, 02:36 PM   #39
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Personally I'm interested in taking Skeptic's money when he gets around to offering odds. But it's a busy forum and there's much to talk about elsewhere .....

p.s. a fun way to offer odds (in a non-commercial environment) is to allow the bettor to take the reverse odds. Brazil 6-1 to win the World Cup, or 1-6 not to win it. It's always a 'fair' proposition.

Fire away Skeptic

p.s. I'm not holding my breath here. Anybody want to offer odds on Skeptic backing off actually offering odds?
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Old 1st June 2010, 02:49 PM   #40
Caustic Logic
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Personally I'm interested in taking Skeptic's money when he gets around to offering odds. But it's a busy forum and there's much to talk about elsewhere .....

p.s. a fun way to offer odds (in a non-commercial environment) is to allow the bettor to take the reverse odds. Brazil 6-1 to win the World Cup, or 1-6 not to win it. It's always a 'fair' proposition.

Fire away Skeptic

p.s. I'm not holding my breath here. Anybody want to offer odds on Skeptic backing off actually offering odds?
I'm not a better usually, but I'd wager 9:1 against any further elaboration of that little "theory."

ETA: Thanks to the mods for the confidence shown in allowing this thread to go where I put it after all. It's not the perfect spot, but nowhere is quite perfect.

Last edited by Caustic Logic; 1st June 2010 at 02:57 PM.
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