ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brexit

Reply
Old 17th August 2017, 09:02 AM   #2401
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
 
Klimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 11,424
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't want a United States of Europe if that's not too academic for this forum.
First, we are (sadly) no where near such case. Second, globalization and various things are enforcing creation of tightly coupled super-states. Individual countries below certain size (USA or Russia) are not powerful enough to match big countries or mega-corporations.
__________________
ModBorg

Engine: Ibalgin 400
Klimax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2017, 10:05 AM   #2402
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 21,982
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't want a United States of Europe if that's not too academic for this forum.
Any indication that there's the prospect of one ?
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2017, 02:37 PM   #2403
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,463
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't want a United States of Europe if that's not too academic for this forum.
Given the utter lack of facts or evidence in your posts I don't think anyone would accuse you of being too academic. We live in an era of global commerce and communications. We face global issues as far as the environment and food security, but you want to tackle 21st century issues with a 19th century political system of individual nation states? That is the essence of what May and the Brexiteers are trying to do, turn the clock back to a past that never really existed in the first place. It's the same basic message Trump offered in the USA, a return to golden past, with more than a dash of racism thrown in.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2017, 02:50 PM   #2404
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 14,792
cutting to the nub of it there Garrison.

Especially your first and last sentences.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2017, 05:56 PM   #2405
Belgian thought
Graduate Poster
 
Belgian thought's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,516
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't want a United States of Europe if that's not too academic for this forum.
But a United Kingdom is much different... , or is it just twee as per the past?
__________________
... er, that's it
Belgian thought is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 12:53 AM   #2406
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 21,982
Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
But a United Kingdom is much different... , or is it just twee as per the past?
United in name only, as the Brexit referendum results showed
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 01:09 AM   #2407
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,448
Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
But a United Kingdom is much different... , or is it just twee as per the past?
Sod that.
I'm not even convinced about England.
Freedom for Mercia!

Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 04:51 AM   #2408
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,089
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If your host country introduced tricky residency requirements (including - heaven forfend, having to learn the local lingo and something about the country :rolleyes) then your idyllic retirement plans could soon be in tatters.
Cínte. D'fhéadfadh sé a bheith an-éaglóideach as an meán teanga aonair Sasanach.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 04:57 AM   #2409
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,089
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
There was a similar result in a poll in the run-up to the referendum, in which a majority thought Brits should have free movement in Europe, and a majority thought Europeans should not have free movement in the UK. Whole swathes of the population clearly are as thick as pig ****<snip>.
I believe the snipped words are unnecessary.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Well, that's the line most of the press have been pushing for years. It's like the way the front cover of the Daily Mail today was shrieking that the chimes of Big Ben being switched off during four years for renovations is "health and safety gone mad," as if not subjecting workers in close proximity to 1-12 x 118 decibels every hour is a "bad thing."
Indeed. Next they'll be saying sending six-year-old children up chimneys is wrong. A useful trade for paupers and orphans. Bring back the brush and brine, and the sulphur candle!!
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 08:29 AM   #2410
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,736
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Cínte. D'fhéadfadh sé a bheith an-éaglóideach as an meán teanga aonair Sasanach.
I think your cat walked across your keyboard and managed to post this.

Btw, if you call the English "Sasanach", what do you call Saxons?
__________________
Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2017, 11:06 AM   #2411
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,706
Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
I think your cat walked across your keyboard and managed to post this.

Btw, if you call the English "Sasanach", what do you call Saxons?
"Sasanach"
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:25 PM   #2412
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,189
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Sod that.
I'm not even convinced about England.
Freedom for Mercia!

Independent People's Republic of Yorkshire now!
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 03:19 PM   #2413
Delphic Oracle
Graduate Poster
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,553
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Independent People's Republic of Yorkshire now!
Jorvik is filing a challenging claim.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:52 PM   #2414
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 21,982
A pro-Brexit economist suggests that there are benefits amounting to £135bn annually which would accrue from the UK unilaterally abandoning all tariffs and removing swathes of legislation.

Quote:
A hard Brexit is "economically much superior to soft" argues Prof Patrick Minford, lead author of a report from Economists for Free Trade.

He says eliminating tariffs, either within free trade deals or unilaterally, would deliver huge gains.
Quote:
The EU would then be under pressure to offer Britain a free trade deal, because otherwise its producers would be competing in a UK market "flooded with less expensive goods from elsewhere", his introduction says.

He argues UK businesses and consumers would benefit from lower priced imported goods and the effects of increased competition, which would force firms to raise their productivity.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

An Anti-Brexit group suggests that the analysis is flawed.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 12:43 AM   #2415
Explorer
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,094
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
A pro-Brexit economist suggests that there are benefits amounting to £135bn annually which would accrue from the UK unilaterally abandoning all tariffs and removing swathes of legislation.





http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

An Anti-Brexit group suggests that the analysis is flawed.
The expert is also inconsistent in his views:

"During the referendum campaign last year Prof Minford stoked controversy by suggesting that the effect of leaving the EU would be to "eliminate manufacturing, leaving mainly industries such as design, marketing and hi-tech".
However in a recent article in the Financial Times he suggested manufacturing would become more profitable post-Brexit."
Explorer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 12:50 AM   #2416
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,140
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
A pro-Brexit economist suggests that there are benefits amounting to £135bn annually which would accrue from the UK unilaterally abandoning all tariffs and removing swathes of legislation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

An Anti-Brexit group suggests that the analysis is flawed.
Out of curiosity, why would anyone sign a trade deal with a country that unilaterarily removed tariffs on everyone? It seems to me you'd be giving up something in exchange for something you already had.

That said, this seems like a part of the strategy of a race to the bottom ... if you call that a strategy at all.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:52 AM   #2417
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 14,792
worth reading this pro-leave blog

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86574

Quote:

Not for the first time, and doubtless not the last, I'm having to point out that the conclusions we came to in*Flexcit*were not arbitrary. In particular, the "Norway" (aka Efta/EEA) option became our choice not for its specific merits but after eliminating the less favourable alternatives.

There was a brief period when it became fashionable to list as many variations and sub-variations as possible but, in truth, there were only ever three: the unilateral (WTO), bilateral (Swiss) and the multilateral (Norway) options.*
I don't really understand why the author was pro leave, given his reasoning.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 03:41 AM   #2418
Mid
Muse
 
Mid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 941
Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
The expert is also inconsistent in his views:

"During the referendum campaign last year Prof Minford stoked controversy by suggesting that the effect of leaving the EU would be to "eliminate manufacturing, leaving mainly industries such as design, marketing and hi-tech".
However in a recent article in the Financial Times he suggested manufacturing would become more profitable post-Brexit."
Well economic theory would more strongly support his first statement (i.e. most manufacturing and agriculture would stop) compared to the later based on the idea of comparative advantage. Ironically this would probably mean the Remain voting areas benefiting from Brexit with the Leave voting areas being damaged.

However, unilateral free trade makes the whole analysis more complex so I wouldn't be so sanguine about the prospects for the more high end industrial areas given protectionism in the rest of the world. Therefore generally I would strongly doubt the claimed benefits they've come out with even without checking the underlying assumptions of their model.
Mid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 04:58 AM   #2419
Arcade22
Illuminator
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 3,946
Quote:
The Brexit secretary, David Davis, is urging Brussels to revisit the government’s proposal to kick off discussions on Britain’s future relationship with the EU alongside withdrawal talks.

Negotiations are to resume in just over a week’s time in Brussels, amid growing concern in government that at the current pace it may be impossible to open trade talks until the end of the year.

The EU has always insisted that key aspects of Britain’s withdrawal – including the principles of a financial settlement, the future of EU citizens living in the UK and the status of Northern Ireland – be dealt with before talks on a new trade deal can begin.

Davis initially suggested the timetabling of talks would be “the row of the summer”, with Britain pressing to begin discussing the future relationship from the start. When negotiations began formally after the general election, he appeared to have conceded that the EU’s approach was acceptable.

But in an article in the Sunday Times, he reopened the debate, arguing that the talks so far have exposed the fact that it is impossible to settle some of the withdrawal questions without a sense of what the future relationship between Britain and the EU will be.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-at-same-time

Complete and utter desperation.
__________________
Freedom you all want, you want freedom. Why then do you haggle over a more or less? Freedom can only be the whole of freedom; a piece of freedom is not freedom. You despair of the possibility of obtaining the whole of freedom, freedom from everything - yes, you consider it insanity even to wish this? - Well, then leave off chasing after the phantom, and spend your pains on something better than the - unattainable. - Max Stirner
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 10:40 AM   #2420
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 18,328
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
<snip>

Quote:
But in an article in the Sunday Times, he reopened the debate, arguing that the talks so far have exposed the fact that it is impossible to settle some of the withdrawal questions without a sense of what the future relationship between Britain and the EU will be.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-at-same-time

Complete and utter desperation.

That sounds a lot like the same way they handled pro-Brexit arguments going into the referendum. So, no real change there.

A path to have the clock run out without the U.K. having done any negotiating at all.

Is this by intent? Or is incompetence a sufficient explanation?
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:06 PM   #2421
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,463
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
A pro-Brexit economist suggests that there are benefits amounting to £135bn annually which would accrue from the UK unilaterally abandoning all tariffs and removing swathes of legislation.





http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

An Anti-Brexit group suggests that the analysis is flawed.
The pro-brexit economist also suggested deregulating the economy, which I suspect means getting rid of all those pesky workers rights and environmental regulations.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:52 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.