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Old 10th September 2018, 08:39 PM   #721
Lambchops
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Obviously biased hyperbole aside.

Yes, **** sometimes does happen.
And people should be held accountable for the **** they make happen.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:41 PM   #722
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
And people should be held accountable for the **** they make happen.
And some held more accountable than others, amirite
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:43 PM   #723
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
And some held more accountable than others, amirite
You are the one who keeps bringing up the cop angle. My position would be the same if she was a kindergarden teacher or a full blown Saint.

Nice try, though.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:52 PM   #724
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
All things considered, that doesn't sound impossible.
Upon further reflection, it has flaws.
The report says she was on the phone to the dispatcher when she needed to look at the door.
The police would need to have been there nearly instantaneously (depending on how long she was on the call) and gone to her actual apartment number (perhaps that is information they would have known, though).
Still, no other reading of it makes sense.
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Old 10th September 2018, 08:57 PM   #725
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Hey guys, I'm starting to think that this whole "wrong apartment" thing was a hastily-concocted excuse.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:00 PM   #726
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
This is BS, and you know it. It's not like she had been awake for three or four days.

14 hours at work is nothing. Or are you saying most people are delirious and unaccountable for their actions after being awake for 16-18 hours? Which is basically a normal day for any semi-functional human?
I am making no argument based upon level of fatigue. I have done things like go to the wrong door, got off on the wrong floor, grabbed the handle of the wrong car door, mistaken what time of day it was, gone into the ladies room instead of the men's, etc.. Multiple times throughout my life, often while fully rested just distracted by some other thoughts.
Happens slightly more often these days with the further distractions the "smart" phones bring.

I don't need her to be tired in order for it to seem reasonable to me that she could have went to the wrong door (or floor) in a hallway full of similar looking doors.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:02 PM   #727
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Upon further reflection, it has flaws.
The report says she was on the phone to the dispatcher when she needed to look at the door.
The police would need to have been there nearly instantaneously (depending on how long she was on the call) and gone to her actual apartment number (perhaps that is information they would have known, though).
Still, no other reading of it makes sense.
According to previous stories, the building is a block from police headquarters. "Nearly instantaneously" would be within the realm of possibility. And the dispatcher would have told an officer in trouble to stay on the line and wait for the cavalry. What you're hypothesizing sounds entirely possible.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:04 PM   #728
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
You are the one who keeps bringing up the cop angle. My position would be the same if she was a kindergarden teacher or a full blown Saint.

Nice try, though.
As would I.

I don't think I would choose "sitting on her ass drinking coffee and eating donuts for half a day" to deride a Kintergarden teacher.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:07 PM   #729
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I am making no argument based upon level of fatigue. I have done things like go to the wrong door, got off on the wrong floor, grabbed the handle of the wrong car door, mistaken what time of day it was, gone into the ladies room instead of the men's, etc.. Multiple times throughout my life, often while fully rested just distracted by some other thoughts.
Happens slightly more often these days with the further distractions the "smart" phones bring.

I don't need her to be tired in order for it to seem reasonable to me that she could have went to the wrong door (or floor) in a hallway full of similar looking doors.
Have you ever shot anyone to death in any of these situations, though?

I'm pretty sure you never did, which is a good thing of course.

But if you had, do you think it would be reasonable for you to avoid any consequences by saying "I was confused/distracted/tired/whatever"?
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:13 PM   #730
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
As would I.

I don't think I would choose "sitting on her ass drinking coffee and eating donuts for half a day" to deride a Kintergarden teacher.
My point was, you don't get to use having been at work for x amount of time as an excuse to kill another human being, no matter what your occupation is. The whole "being a cop is super stressful" thing is utter rubbish. Compared to what exactly? It's not like all cops are working on child porn making infant rapists and serial killing cannibal cases all the time.

It's not about derision, it's about trying to obtain some sort of realistic perspective on things. There are plenty of stressful jobs out there. And yet we don't (or at least we shouldn't) give people a "get out of jail free card" because they're working a heavy job.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:16 PM   #731
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Have you ever shot anyone to death in any of these situations, though?

I'm pretty sure you never did, which is a good thing of course.

But if you had, do you think it would be reasonable for you to avoid any consequences by saying "I was confused/distracted/tired/whatever"?
I don't carry a gun. I think it should be nearly impossible (in an ideal world) for a person to be able to walk around armed like that (this case is an example of one of the reasons why I hold that position)- so, no never shot anyone.

In answer to your second question: sometimes, depending on the particular facets of the situation.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:40 PM   #732
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
My point was, you don't get to use having been at work for x amount of time as an excuse to kill another human being, no matter what your occupation is. The whole "being a cop is super stressful" thing is utter rubbish. Compared to what exactly? It's not like all cops are working on child porn making infant rapists and serial killing cannibal cases all the time.

It's not about derision, it's about trying to obtain some sort of realistic perspective on things. There are plenty of stressful jobs out there. And yet we don't (or at least we shouldn't) give people a "get out of jail free card" because they're working a heavy job.
I agree. I cannot envisage a situation in which working a long shift excuses killing another human being.
But I think you are leaping a lot of details if you are asserting that is an excuse being provided. It is one data point among others.
Personally, it carries little import with me if she was exhausted or wide awake. I can imagine mistakenly opening the wrong door in either condition.
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Old 10th September 2018, 09:48 PM   #733
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Assume, for the sake of argument, she opened the door to her actual apartment and found an actual, unarmed burglar. Would she have been entitled to kill him on the spot?

You don't seem to get that we don't let people casually kill other people.
I think you meant to write, "shouldn't" instead of "don't"
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:00 PM   #734
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I agree. I cannot envisage a situation in which working a long shift excuses killing another human being.
But I think you are leaping a lot of details if you are asserting that is an excuse being provided. It is one data point among others.
Personally, it carries little import with me if she was exhausted or wide awake. I can imagine mistakenly opening the wrong door in either condition.
Alright, but then what is the excuse? What details am I missing?

Why is it OK that this one human being was killed by another human being in their own home? How is this not problematic? Why should we say "oh, it was an honest mistake so just let it go"?
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:21 PM   #735
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
That is nonsensical sounding.
If she thought she was in her own apartment, she wouldn't need to look at the door number.
If she forgot her apartment number, looking at the door would not make her realize that she was in the wrong number (because she had forgotten it anyway), and if she needed to look because she knew the apartment was not hers then she would not have "discovered" anything new by looking at the door.

The only way it makes sense is if the police were already at her actual address, and we're asking her where she was.
Something like:
them: "where are you?"
Her: "408, my apartment"
Them: " we are at 408 and no one is here"
Her: "what?" -goes to look at door and discovers she is not in her
apartment
Fair play for this.

I'd say unless this is way it went down her story is utter pants.
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Old 10th September 2018, 10:26 PM   #736
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post

In answer to your second question: sometimes, depending on the particular facets of the situation.
I could be wrong but I think you might feel differently if you were the one shot
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Old 11th September 2018, 12:39 AM   #737
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Per WaPo:
Quote:
According to the new documents, Guyger, 30, told Texas Ranger David Armstrong that her door was ajar when she arrived at her downtown Dallas apartment. She saw a “large silhouette” inside, drew her handgun and gave “verbal commands that were ignored” by Jean, 26. Guyger pulled the trigger, hitting Jean in the torso. He died of the injury hours later.

Guyger told investigators that she called 911, first turning on the lights while on the call. “Upon being asked where she was located by emergency dispatchers, Guyger returned to the front door to observe the address and discovered she was at the wrong apartment,” the affidavit said.
This is a wildly divergent scenario from what an off-the-record cop in Dallas said about the circumstances. I don't know how much credence to give that report but it paints a totally different picture. The "door ajar" being one of the most glaring contradictions.
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Old 11th September 2018, 01:20 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
He certainly didn't have any obligation to do anything. But if he had imagined that his own home was being invaded, and he had reached for his own gun, she -- who shouldn't even have been there at all -- would still have a right to defend herself.
No she wouldn't; that's a ridiculous claim. It's equivalent to saying that a home invader who encounters an armed homeowner has a right to shoot him in self defense. As far as I can understand in Texas law, Jean had an absolute right, on seeing an armed stranger in his apartment who had no right to be there, to shoot her dead on the spot; the corollory of this is that the armed intruder had, by illegally entering another person's home when armed, forfeited all rights including the right to life. Whether or not I agree with it, that seems to be the law.

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Old 11th September 2018, 01:26 AM   #739
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Assume, for the sake of argument, she opened the door to her actual apartment and found an actual, unarmed burglar. Would she have been entitled to kill him on the spot?
Texas law embodies the Castle Doctrine, so at the very least the answer is "Maybe."

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Old 11th September 2018, 01:29 AM   #740
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Alright, but then what is the excuse? What details am I missing?
I think the detail you're missing is the distinction between reasons and excuses. Being tired and distracted after a 14-hour shift may well be a reason for entering the wrong apartment and mistakenly shooting an innocent person, but it's not an excuse.

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Old 11th September 2018, 01:37 AM   #741
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I know, crazy, right? All she did was kill someone! And people fuss so!
And I mean who hasn't after a long day at work walked into the wrong home and shot the owner?
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:13 AM   #742
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Latest weirdness: The cop is claiming that she didn't know she was in the wrong place until she called 911 and looked at the apartment number.
Quote:
According to the new documents, Guyger, 30, told Texas Ranger David Armstrong that her door was ajar when she arrived at her downtown Dallas apartment. She saw a “large silhouette” inside, drew her handgun and gave “verbal commands that were ignored” by Jean, 26. Guyger pulled the trigger, hitting Jean in the torso. He died of the injury hours later.

Guyger told investigators that she called 911, first turning on the lights while on the call. “Upon being asked where she was located by emergency dispatchers, Guyger returned to the front door to observe the address and discovered she was at the wrong apartment,” the affidavit said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...?noredirect=on

So now she's claiming she didn't know her own address?
More to the point, if she was so sure where she was, why did she have to go outside to read the apartment number? Even if - as she claims - it was in darkness, her eyes would quickly adjust, and she'd see enough to know she wasn't in her own. I'd suggest that she'd already realised she was in the wrong place, and thus had to go outside to find out the actual apartment number. Her claiming she didn't know until she saw the number is a self-serving lie.

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Old 11th September 2018, 02:24 AM   #743
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And I mean who hasn't after a long day at work walked into the wrong home and shot the owner?
Considering all the millions of times police officers have gone to the right apartment and not shot anyone, do we really have a problem here?

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Old 11th September 2018, 02:29 AM   #744
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
What was it like living in an apartment with near identical floors containing long rows of near identical doors?
Our house is in a street of literally identical terraced houses. When we moved in in October 2010 my wife and I did it ourselves, making three trips from north-east London to south-east London. The last one, we arrived at the new house after 22:00, and had to park further up the street because there wasn't a space nearer. We'd both been awake and shifting boxes and furniture for most of the previous 14 hours, having been up until after midnight the previous night finishing the packing, but I told her to go to bed, as she had to drive the van back to the rental place in the morning (she still managed to lose a wing-mirror in the process). It took me another couple of hours to unload the van on my own (shouldn't have left my library until last!). Despite being parked some distance from the house, never once did I manage to walk up the wrong path, let alone try to open the wrong door.

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Old 11th September 2018, 02:31 AM   #745
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Obviously biased hyperbole aside.

Yes, **** sometimes does happen.
And generally people end up paying for it. Unless they're cops.
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:48 AM   #746
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that the City of Dallas and the Dallas PD does not want this to go to trial.

They are going to be portrayed as the department that forces officers to work extended dangerous shifts, because they don't want to pay for more officers. They are going to be crucified if this goes to trial.

I'm going to say it will be a huge out of court civil settlement, with charges against the officer dropped, or a plea to the lowest possible offense.
This is one reason why plea deals are bad. They allow things to be swept under the carpet. Justice should not only be done but be seen to be done; judges should be more resistant to deals, and victims should have a veto.
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:53 AM   #747
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Each one should be considered on its own merit- there is no upper or lower limit.
Ah, but what if the victim is a cute white girl?
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Old 11th September 2018, 02:58 AM   #748
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
She didn't make a mistake; she made several inexplicable mistakes. Parking on the wrong floor, somehow oblivious to signs which were certainly there. Walking to 'her' apartment, somehow missing the lighted apartment number, and for god's sake a bright red mat that she did not have. Her key did not work. The door she left locked was open. It's inexplicably difficult to have missed all that without snapping her out of whatever dazed state she was in, after a long day of serving warrants. You know, where you are carefully verifying addresses? Then, in the dark, she thinks she sees someone and starts shooting. Did you know your eyes can play tricks on you in the dark? I'll bet she does. Still opened fire in a residential building.

Even in the most favorable of interpretations, she killed a man, having no idea what was going on. She killed him in an apartment building, where personnel can be in your unit without notice. She killed him despite having formal training in how to apprehend suspects alive, and having the authority to do so. She killed him without the slightest regard for human life, because as far as she knew he was just a petty burglar. She killed him without any reported credible threat of imminent death to herself. She killed him because that was what she wanted to do.

What part of this is reasonable again?
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:03 AM   #749
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
That is nonsensical sounding.
If she thought she was in her own apartment, she wouldn't need to look at the door number.
Maybe she had doubts at that moment. You know, because of the dead guy and different furniture and all.
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:05 AM   #750
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
And some held more accountable than others, amirite
I think you meant less.
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:06 AM   #751
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is one reason why plea deals are bad. They allow things to be swept under the carpet. Justice should not only be done but be seen to be done; judges should be more resistant to deals, and victims should have a veto.
I think you'd find that they might not have time to deal with all of the cases, and you'd quickly end up with a huge backlog.
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:09 AM   #752
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Our house is in a street of literally identical terraced houses. When we moved in in October 2010 my wife and I did it ourselves, making three trips from north-east London to south-east London. The last one, we arrived at the new house after 22:00, and had to park further up the street because there wasn't a space nearer. We'd both been awake and shifting boxes and furniture for most of the previous 14 hours, having been up until after midnight the previous night finishing the packing, but I told her to go to bed, as she had to drive the van back to the rental place in the morning (she still managed to lose a wing-mirror in the process). It took me another couple of hours to unload the van on my own (shouldn't have left my library until last!). Despite being parked some distance from the house, never once did I manage to walk up the wrong path, let alone try to open the wrong door.
To be fair, it's entirely possible to make that mistake. You're just not supposed to shoot people in the process.
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:11 AM   #753
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
This is why I have trouble with this. That's a mistake anyone could make, and once it's made, it led to a tragedy, but at no part do I see her doing something a non-reasonable person would do. I'm assuming a scenario where the door is unlocked, the room is dark, the victim acts startled and doesn't listen to her orders or maybe rushes at her. We can blame her for picking the wrong floor, I guess, but not for what happened afterwards. Again, assuming the best possible scenario for her.
A reasonable person would get out and call the cops. (Even if you are a cop responding opening fire with no imminent threat should be illegal). The problem with US cops and perhaps the US more generally is that opening fire is seen as a reasonable action. It should never be seen as reasonable, although it may be necessary. In the UK every shooting results in a court case (a coroner's court in most of the UK, an FAI by a fiscal in Scotland), this means any defence by the LEO can be challenged, the jury can return a verdict of homicide; although a criminal trial would need to follow for a conviction to result.
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:27 AM   #754
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think you'd find that they might not have time to deal with all of the cases, and you'd quickly end up with a huge backlog.
Other countries mange with no plea deals. You just fund your court system appropriately (most places make a profit on fines, so first call should be funding your court system), sending fewer people to jail would save some money. (E.g. a recent case of a person convicted of lying to the FBI; 2 weeks in jail for a non-violent first offence is just silly; 2 weeks means taking vacation time, just a waste of money there are far better ways to punish someone eg. a 1 year sentence suspended for five years dependent on community service, or even part time jail - every week end for 6 months.
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:29 AM   #755
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
To be fair, it's entirely possible to make that mistake. You're just not supposed to shoot people in the process.
I think that by the time I located the box my air pistol was in and loaded it, I would have realised my mistake. Still it would have saved someone getting a nasty bruise.
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Old 11th September 2018, 03:50 AM   #756
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Assume, for the sake of argument, she opened the door to her actual apartment and found an actual, unarmed burglar. Would she have been entitled to kill him on the spot?...
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Texas law embodies the Castle Doctrine, so at the very least the answer is "Maybe."

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Under Texas law the victim, Botham Jean, probably had the right to shoot too. Ain't the NRA grand?
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Old 11th September 2018, 04:00 AM   #757
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I'm wondering at what point she drew her gun, and why her gun and not her taser?
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Old 11th September 2018, 04:15 AM   #758
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm wondering at what point she drew her gun, and why her gun and not her taser?
Taser is unreliable and has only one shot. Typically it's used with other cops covering the one who is using it. If I had gun and taser on the table, and burglar comes to my house, I'm choosing the gun.
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Old 11th September 2018, 04:46 AM   #759
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Question here: Most cops belong to strong unions. What does it take to fire a cop? I would think the Dallas chief could at this point say something like "We express no opinion about the ultimate legal resolution of this matter. But we have no confidence in an officer who has been charged with manslaughter, and therefore she is terminated effective today." Why would even other cops want her around?
We haven't even seen exactly what her defense is.

If she worked a 14 hour shift, after being off for 4 hours, after another 12 hour shift, for example. She is going to claim she was mentally unfit and push this on the DPD for doing this to her. If they fire her now, after putting her on some extended shift, they are going to look even worse.
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Old 11th September 2018, 04:48 AM   #760
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This is one reason why plea deals are bad. They allow things to be swept under the carpet. Justice should not only be done but be seen to be done; judges should be more resistant to deals, and victims should have a veto.
They do, but there is a number that overrides a veto.
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