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Old 11th September 2018, 04:51 AM   #761
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I think the detail you're missing is the distinction between reasons and excuses. Being tired and distracted after a 14-hour shift may well be a reason for entering the wrong apartment and mistakenly shooting an innocent person, but it's not an excuse.

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It is an excuse if it is coupled with a temporary insanity plea.

People have done it with sleepwalking. (Sleepwalker murders)

People have done it with prescription drugs.

Why not management-forced sleep deprivation coupled with multiple Red Bulls?
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Old 11th September 2018, 05:41 AM   #762
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm wondering at what point she drew her gun, and why her gun and not her taser?
Well, she has a history of not being able to hold on to hers, so maybe she does learn from experience.
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Old 11th September 2018, 05:43 AM   #763
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
What was it like living in an apartment with near identical floors containing long rows of near identical doors?
I would assume rather like residing in a Holiday Inn or many other hotels. Several times I have returned to my room after a long day and occasionally many beers. Under those heightened circumstances I consider my death toll quite reasonable.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:00 AM   #764
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I would assume rather like residing in a Holiday Inn or many other hotels. Several times I have returned to my room after a long day and occasionally many beers. Under those heightened circumstances I consider my death toll quite reasonable.
I bet you've killed quite a few cleaners, you walk into your hotel room see someone there, what else are you going to do but shoot them dead? There is simply no reasonable reason why a reasonable person wouldn't take such reasonable action.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:02 AM   #765
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Affidavit from the Texas Rangers. Click to enlarge...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg affidavit.jpg (62.2 KB, 71 views)
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:10 AM   #766
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I don't believe her, I think the lights were on when she entered, why wouldn't they be?
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:13 AM   #767
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Affidavit from the Texas Rangers. Click to enlarge...
Well, if I ever need a significant volume of water carried for me, I'll know who to call.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:18 AM   #768
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So her own story (a story she could have made up since she killed the only person that could counter it) is that she opened a door, saw a shape, and shot it.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:19 AM   #769
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This wasn't very late at night. 10 pm-ish, IIRC. No lights on? No TV on? Soemthing about this part of the story doesn't smell right to me.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:29 AM   #770
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So her own story (a story she could have made up since she killed the only person that could counter it) is that she opened a door, saw a shape, and shot it.
And also had to go back to gawk at the door to realise she wasn't home, even after turning the lights on an seeing the contents of the appartment.

As I said, an idiot. She should be relieved of field duty immediately and permanently, prevented from using firearms in perpetuity, and then charged with at the very least deadly negligence or whatever the equivalent is down there.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:46 AM   #771
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Affidavit from the Texas Rangers. Click to enlarge...
This does make a little more sense, if she turned the lights on and saw that things didn't look like her apartment and so went to the door to check the number.

Still, she claims she went from zero to homicide with little information. There's no way a trained police officer shoots any suspect immediately. If anyone should show control and discipline with a weapon, and not resort to shooting in fear, it is a cop.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:47 AM   #772
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So her own story (a story she could have made up since she killed the only person that could counter it) is that she opened a door, saw a shape, and shot it.
wondering why someone would try sticking a key in a door that is already ajar by her description
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:48 AM   #773
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Taser is unreliable and has only one shot. Typically it's used with other cops covering the one who is using it. If I had gun and taser on the table, and burglar comes to my house, I'm choosing the gun.
I'm going to try absolutely anything else, unless a gun is pointed at me.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:50 AM   #774
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I hadn't noted it before but she shot Jean whilst she was standing in the corridor, which to my mind makes a "fear reaction" even less likely.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:52 AM   #775
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From the affidavit: "...gave verbal commands that were ignored..." I wonder what those commands were?
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:54 AM   #776
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I don't know if it is spelled out to this degree of specificity in law enforcement but in the military it is beaten into us that in order to deploy lethal force the person(s) lethal force are being applied to have, Have, HAVE, got to meet three requirement*:

1. Capability - The target has the means of inflicting death or bodily harm.
2. Intent - The target has to expressed reasonably clear will and desire to cause death or bodily harm.
3. Opportunity - The target has to be in a reasonable position and scenario where they could cause death or bodily harm.

Take away any of those and you keep your booger hook off the trigger, no questions asked, do not pass Go, do not collect 200 dollars.

I've seen 18 year old boots with dishwater IQs grasp this concept after a single class and they do not get near a weapon until they understand it.

Please take note that "I'm scared for my life" isn't in any of those.
Please take note that "I'm in a situation where I haven't removed the chance of any possibility of any danger to myself" isn't in any of those.
Please take note that "I can imagine myself in this scenario, therefore it can't be wrong" isn't in any of those.
Please take note that "Failure to follow verbal commands" would only be one potential factor in Intent in some cases, not necessarily a blank check to shoot.

*I think some of the other services call it Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy, but they are essentially talking the same three factors.
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:54 AM   #777
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
From the affidavit: "...gave verbal commands that were ignored..." I wonder what those commands were?
I wonder if, had she entered her own apartment, she'd have ended up shooting the lampshade?

Dave
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Old 11th September 2018, 06:57 AM   #778
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
From the affidavit: "...gave verbal commands that were ignored..." I wonder what those commands were?
My guess is "Stop resisting!" after shooting him.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:01 AM   #779
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Affidavit from the Texas Rangers. Click to enlarge...
Quite a bit of that makes no sense.

She's claiming the door was actually open, not just unlocked?
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:02 AM   #780
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
From the affidavit: "...gave verbal commands that were ignored..." I wonder what those commands were?
And why would Jean not say anything?
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:03 AM   #781
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Quite a bit of that makes no sense.

She's claiming the door was actually open, not just unlocked?
Vague statement is vague but the way I read it the door was "closed" but the lock wasn't latched to it just sort of opened when she touched it.

But as you say it isn't 100% clear.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:03 AM   #782
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I hadn't noted it before but she shot Jean whilst she was standing in the corridor, which to my mind makes a "fear reaction" even less likely.
IMO, if she was actually still in the corridor, she seems considerably more reckless.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:03 AM   #783
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Quite a bit of that makes no sense.

She's claiming the door was actually open, not just unlocked?
Also doesn't jibe with the witness claiming she called out 'let me in', twice.

eta: setting the groundwork that she didn't force her way in because it was open?
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:07 AM   #784
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't know if it is spelled out to this degree of specificity in law enforcement but in the military it is beaten into us that in order to deploy lethal force the person(s) lethal force are being applied to have, Have, HAVE, got to meet three requirement*:

1. Capability - The target has the means of inflicting death or bodily harm.
2. Intent - The target has to expressed reasonably clear will and desire to cause death or bodily harm.
3. Opportunity - The target has to be in a reasonable position and scenario where they could cause death or bodily harm.

Take away any of those and you keep your booger hook off the trigger, no questions asked, do not pass Go, do not collect 200 dollars.

I've seen 18 year old boots with dishwater IQs grasp this concept after a single class and they do not get near a weapon until they understand it.

Please take note that "I'm scared for my life" isn't in any of those.
Please take note that "I'm in a situation where I haven't removed the chance of any possibility of any danger to myself" isn't in any of those.
Please take note that "I can imagine myself in this scenario, therefore it can't be wrong" isn't in any of those.
Please take note that "Failure to follow verbal commands" would only be one potential factor in Intent in some cases, not necessarily a blank check to shoot.

*I think some of the other services call it Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy, but they are essentially talking the same three factors.
'Booger hook'?
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:08 AM   #785
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
'Booger hook'?
Trigger finger.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:09 AM   #786
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Vague statement is vague but the way I read it the door was "closed" but the lock wasn't latched to it just sort of opened when she touched it.

But as you say it isn't 100% clear.
Maybe Jean was expecting a neighbor to visit, and left the door cracked open?

We're only getting one side of the story.

We'll only get part of Jean's story from witnesses and evidence.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:10 AM   #787
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
And why would Jean not say anything?
I'm sure he did, something along the lines of 'who...what...huh?'
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:11 AM   #788
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Maybe Jean was expecting a neighbor to visit, and left the door cracked open?
Or it just could have not closed all the way. It happens, a door is a little warped or off balance or a lock/keyset is a little old and worn out, you think you close it but it's only halfway shut... stuff like that just happens.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:12 AM   #789
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
And why would Jean not say anything?
He's on his own in his apartment, suddenly a woman is there screaming commands and pointing a gun at him, and not having any military training he freezes with shock? Or he did say something but she was so pumped with adrenaline that she didn't hear him? Or he said something she didn't like and she shot without thinking, then decided it would sound better if she said he didn't respond in any way?

Please don't start trying to suggest Jean did something wrong here. A police officer entered his apartment illegally and shot him dead without properly assessing whether he presented any threat. Nothing he could have done, up to and including shooting her dead on the spot, could have been illegal in the circumstances.

Dave
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:16 AM   #790
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'm sure he did, something along the lines of 'who...what...huh?'
Jean must have been able to see Guyger fairly well.

It seems odd that the affidavit doesn't report what Guyger or Jean said.

If he was in his underwear, it seems like he was in bed or getting ready for bed.

You'd think he'd secure the front door before retiring.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:19 AM   #791
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
He's on his own in his apartment, suddenly a woman is there screaming commands and pointing a gun at him, and not having any military training he freezes with shock? Or he did say something but she was so pumped with adrenaline that she didn't hear him? Or he said something she didn't like and she shot without thinking, then decided it would sound better if she said he didn't respond in any way?

Please don't start trying to suggest Jean did something wrong here. A police officer entered his apartment illegally and shot him dead without properly assessing whether he presented any threat. Nothing he could have done, up to and including shooting her dead on the spot, could have been illegal in the circumstances.

Dave
Just going over the case, not assigning blame.

There's no question of who is to blame.

However, we all know what will happen in court.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:20 AM   #792
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Quite a bit of that makes no sense.

She's claiming the door was actually open, not just unlocked?
"Ajar", which generally means closed-but with the latch not completely engaged.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:21 AM   #793
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Trigger finger.
I gathered. English is a rich and imagerous language. Sometimes a little too rich. Ugh.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:22 AM   #794
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Jean must have been able to see Guyger fairly well.

It seems odd that the affidavit doesn't report what Guyger or Jean said.

If he was in his underwear, it seems like he was in bed or getting ready for bed.

You'd think he'd secure the front door before retiring.
A statement reported earlier from the family attorney claims that he was fully clothed.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:22 AM   #795
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
He's on his own in his apartment, suddenly a woman is there screaming commands and pointing a gun at him, and not having any military training he freezes with shock? Or he did say something but she was so pumped with adrenaline that she didn't hear him? Or he said something she didn't like and she shot without thinking, then decided it would sound better if she said he didn't respond in any way?

Please don't start trying to suggest Jean did something wrong here. A police officer entered his apartment illegally and shot him dead without properly assessing whether he presented any threat. Nothing he could have done, up to and including shooting her dead on the spot, could have been illegal in the circumstances.

Dave
From a Texas Law Firm's site, the requirements for defense under Castle Doctrine:

Quote:
Texas law provides for a justifiable defense at trial when using deadly force if the person claiming self defense:

1. Reasonably believed the deadly force was immediately necessary (Jean would have had this, she did not)
2. Had a legal right to be on the property (Jean had this, she did not)
3. Did not provoke the person against whom deadly force was used (She did, he did not); and
4. Was not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force was used (she was, he was not).
https://www.bhwlawfirm.com/deadly-fo...ense-in-texas/
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:24 AM   #796
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I gathered. English is a rich and imagerous language. Sometimes a little too rich. Ugh.
And "Booger hook" is just the trigger finger. Your entire hand is your "Dick Skinner" as in "Keep your dick skinners off your weapon unless you are ready to pull it."
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:26 AM   #797
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Quote:
From a Texas Law Firm's site, the requirements for defense under Castle Doctrine:

Quote:
Texas law provides for a justifiable defense at trial when using deadly force if the person claiming self defense:

1. Reasonably believed the deadly force was immediately necessary (Jean would have had this, she did not)
2. Had a legal right to be on the property (Jean had this, she did not)
3. Did not provoke the person against whom deadly force was used (She did, he did not); and
4. Was not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force was used (she was, he was not).
The apologist (and most probably her legal defense) will say that she thought all those things were true so she's still in the clear.

And it will probably work.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:26 AM   #798
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I gathered. English is a rich and imagerous language. Sometimes a little too rich. Ugh.
Beats butt-scratcher.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:28 AM   #799
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
"Ajar", which generally means closed-but with the latch not completely engaged.
That's not what ajar means.
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Old 11th September 2018, 07:35 AM   #800
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The apologist (and most probably her legal defense) will say that she thought all those things were true so she's still in the clear.

And it will probably work.
IIRC, Texas is a letter-of-the-law state, not a spirit-of-the-law state in interpretation? Might be tougher if so
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