|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
9th September 2018, 10:04 AM | #201 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
I could imagine something like this:
1/ She rattles the lock trying to use the wrong key. 2/ He hears someone at the door and goes to see what's up. 3/ She hears movement or other noises inside "her" place that she "knows" is empty. 4/ She draws her gun. 5/ He opens the door. 6/ She sees strange (as in unknown) black man and fires instantly. If there had been any conversation -- "What are you doing here?" "I live here. What are you doing here?" Etc. -- this couldn't have happened. |
9th September 2018, 10:08 AM | #202 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
If this truly was a mistake by a sober woman who walked into the wrong apartment and freaked out, what would be the point of prosecuting her? I don't think I could make that kind of mistake, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility, and if I did see a strange man in what I thought was my apartment and I had a gun, perhaps I would react the same way. Again, I don't think I would, but I can see how a person might react that way.
|
9th September 2018, 10:21 AM | #203 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
|
9th September 2018, 10:22 AM | #204 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 7,070
|
|
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda |
|
9th September 2018, 10:29 AM | #205 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 34,249
|
|
__________________
There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
|
9th September 2018, 10:33 AM | #206 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
Prosecutors have discretion in who they prosecute. Let's take a scenario where stupidity (or forgetfulness or misperceiving) results in a death: I'm driving and think I see something like a person run out of the forest from the corner of my eye. I swerve and then realize there's no one there. I then overcorrect and smash into a car head-on, killing a person. I freely admit to the police that there wasn't anyone actually in the forest running into the road, but for a second I thought there was.
Should I be prosecuted? |
9th September 2018, 10:38 AM | #207 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
|
9th September 2018, 10:39 AM | #208 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
Not a comparable situation at all. You didn't intend to hit another car. She deliberately killed a man in a place where she had no right to even be. And even under hypothetical circumstances most favorable to her, if she had been at her own place, and the guy had been a burglar, she would still have to prove that she was reasonably in fear for her life. This was no traffic accident.
ETA: And if you had been drinking or drugged, that would be the primary factor to consider, no matter what you thought you saw. |
9th September 2018, 10:43 AM | #209 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
Who are you? Where are you? People go to prison every day for crimes they are unlikely to commit again. Gross negligence by itself can be a crime. People aren't supposed to kill other people without good cause and dance away.
And her -- and the police dept.'s -- civil liability will be seven figures, minimum. Or you think we should just forget that too? |
9th September 2018, 10:47 AM | #210 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
It's comparable in the sense that people died as a result of actions I took that were based faulty perceptions.
Quote:
Quote:
Of course the situation changes if she was drinking or drugged. I stipulated that she was sober. |
9th September 2018, 10:48 AM | #211 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 10,099
|
|
9th September 2018, 10:53 AM | #212 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
Shooting of Kathryn Steinle
Was that a miscarriage of justice? When I was a sophomore in high school, we had a girl die. Her brother (16) was cleaning a gun and stupidly pointed it at her to scare her. He dropped it, it went off, the bullet hit her shoulder blade and deflected into her heart. Nobody was prosecuted. Should someone have been? How many hunters over the years haven't been prosecuted for accidentally shooting someone? I bet the number is pretty high. Remember when Dick Cheney shot his friend? Should he have been charged?
Quote:
|
9th September 2018, 10:57 AM | #213 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,419
|
Dave Chappelle used to have a bit about this situation. "I've seen this before, Johnson. A ****** breaks into someone's apartment and then puts up pictures of his family. Sprinkle some crack on him."
|
__________________
Cain: Don't be a homo. Diablo: What's that supposed to mean? Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value. |
|
9th September 2018, 11:05 AM | #214 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
And what I said was:
Quote:
Texas appears to have four levels of homicide: murder, capital murder, manslaughter, and criminally negligent homicide. https://www.zenlawfirm.com/law-blog/...cide-in-texas/ |
9th September 2018, 11:11 AM | #215 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
What does that have to do with anything. That's a Trumper meme. The guy was determined by a jury not to have intended to harm anybody. The prosecutor may have erred in charging him with 1st degree murder in the first place. Unless this cop claims her gun went off "by accident," she shot him deliberately and intended to do so.
ETA: And if one of her civilian neighbors had done exactly the same thing, he would be in jail now. |
9th September 2018, 11:14 AM | #216 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 10,099
|
|
9th September 2018, 11:18 AM | #217 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7,051
|
|
9th September 2018, 11:22 AM | #218 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
|
9th September 2018, 11:24 AM | #219 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
I'll never understanding this utter obsession with determining recidivism before we're allowed to punish anyone for doing something.
Essentially you're arguing that everybody gets one free. Oswald probably wasn't going to shoot another President either. And? Your point? |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
9th September 2018, 11:27 AM | #220 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,278
|
|
__________________
The poster formerly known as Redtail |
|
9th September 2018, 11:27 AM | #221 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 36,111
|
I would suggest that the point of prosecuting her would be the point of prosecuting anyone for something they don't routinely do. She's shown herself to be irresponsible, unreliable, and lethally dangerous to the public. I can see how she might have reacted that way, just as I can see all sorts of reasons for doing something one realizes later was wrong. At the very least she should never again in her life be holding a gun in her hands.
|
__________________
Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
|
9th September 2018, 11:28 AM | #222 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
|
9th September 2018, 11:30 AM | #223 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
|
9th September 2018, 11:31 AM | #224 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
|
9th September 2018, 11:31 AM | #225 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7,051
|
Thanks, Bob001. I was thinking more of out resident Euro audience who will now insist that it is "x". Well, no in the USA, it's actually x, capital x, x-1, and x-2.
"I don't care what you say it's still x!" I'm just trying to rein in the petty bickering that will no doubt ensue.* *"Who said you could do that? Who died and made you mod"? |
9th September 2018, 11:32 AM | #226 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
|
9th September 2018, 11:36 AM | #227 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
I'm not interested in going down a Bob-hole of Law Theory 101.
I'm saying your first crime can't be a "gimme." And again elephant in the room if the guy had panicked and shot the cop, nobody would be worried about the odds that he would do it again, they'd be calling for his head. |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
9th September 2018, 11:37 AM | #228 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
|
9th September 2018, 11:37 AM | #229 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
Driving while very tired is not a smart thing to do. What did this woman do that was equivalent? She mistook someone else's apartment for her own, and events spiraled out of control. The catalyst to all this was the mistaken identification. If that was an honest mistake on her part, one we all are capable of making, what are we punishing her for?
|
9th September 2018, 11:38 AM | #230 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
|
9th September 2018, 11:40 AM | #231 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
|
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
9th September 2018, 11:42 AM | #232 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
|
9th September 2018, 11:45 AM | #233 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 46,649
|
If you can imagine yourself going into the wrong apartment and shooting somebody over it that's your problem.
Again every possible scenario you could wind up end doesn't get taken off the "crime" list. |
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
|
9th September 2018, 11:47 AM | #234 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
He was the lawful resident answering noises at the door of his home. It's up to her to prove that he was a threat to her life, not up to anyone else to prove he wasn't.
Thought exercise: Suppose under identical circumstances, a black man with a criminal record shot and killed a white grandmother opening her door? Does he get a pass? Hell, she could have had a derringer in her apron pocket! He was scared for his life! And we expect cops -- whom we endow with the power of life and death -- to display better judgment. A civilian, even in Texas, would not have been likely to draw a gun. There would have been a brief conversation at the door -- "618?" "No, 418," and that would have been the end of it. Cops aren't licensed to kill. |
9th September 2018, 11:52 AM | #235 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 27,292
|
If the electronic release mechanism is operated by a fob then the only electrical components need could be on the inside of the door. The deadbolt lock on the outside would still use a key in the event that the electrically operated mechanism failed (batteries in fob or door mechanism, etc). Guyger may well have tried the fob release, and then when that didn't work (because it wasn't her door) she then tried her key. Which also didn't work. For the same reason. I read a bunch of reviews of the apartment building which predate this event, and they are nearly unanimous in their complaints about the poor maintenance since the most recent owner took over. They might expect to need their keys routinely. |
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
|
9th September 2018, 11:53 AM | #236 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 10,099
|
|
9th September 2018, 11:54 AM | #237 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
Yes, it goes to her state of mind. And her state of mind appears to have been "there's a strange person in my apartment". Her state of mind isn't accurate, but it doesn't have to be in order for it to be a defense.
Quote:
Quote:
|
9th September 2018, 11:54 AM | #238 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 27,292
|
|
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
|
9th September 2018, 11:56 AM | #239 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Where the Arrantly Roam
Posts: 26,169
|
Or yelling 'police!' as she drew should have been response number one. Have a hard time believing she wasn't trained to do that
|
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet |
|
9th September 2018, 11:59 AM | #240 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,278
|
Yes. Do you think shooting someone for being home is a smart thing to do?
Quote:
Quote:
She should be punished because he mistake cost someone their life. |
__________________
The poster formerly known as Redtail |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|