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25th September 2018, 09:09 AM | #2361 |
Lackey
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If she has been told "you've been sacked because you murdered someone" and then the court finds she didn't murder someone then the police force in fact had no grounds for her dismissal. At the moment I do not believe the details of her dismissal have been made public so we can only talk in generalities about the rights and wrongs of her dismissal.
Your opinion may differ but I still think criminal investigations and prosecutions should be completed before a matter of employment. Her being suspended from active duty whilst the criminal investigation proceeds seems to be a sensible course of action. |
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25th September 2018, 09:19 AM | #2362 |
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My mistake. Generalities are fine. The way I read your post, you were talking about the specific scenario where she was specifically fired for murder, and you were specifically objecting to that scenario. My specific reply was based on the specifics in your post.
Quote:
If the police department finds that she misrepresented the incident in her report, why shouldn't they take appropriate disciplinary action, regardless of the outcome of the court case? People get fired all the time for violating their employer's policies, without a criminal prosecution ever being involved or even considered. You're making a spurious connection between two unconnected things.
Quote:
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25th September 2018, 09:29 AM | #2363 |
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Employment issues will be handled between her FoP/union and the city. That's a civil procedure. Elements of the criminal investigation may be used as evidence, but it won't be a criminal matter.
ETA: depending on the union/city agreement, it may not even be a civil case, they may have a private arbitration setup for this. |
25th September 2018, 10:11 AM | #2364 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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25th September 2018, 11:05 AM | #2365 |
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25th September 2018, 11:06 AM | #2366 |
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25th September 2018, 11:10 AM | #2367 |
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Never mind.
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25th September 2018, 11:27 AM | #2368 |
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25th September 2018, 01:32 PM | #2369 |
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I think i may have figured out why the search warrant has that glaringly different description of the confrontation when compared to the arrest warrant. The search warrant suggests that Jean came to the door and it happened there while the arrest warrant suggests that Jean didn't come to the door at all and that instead he was "across the room".
The stark difference was created by an ambiguously written sentence from some desk cop. Here is the statement from the search warrant... "An unknown male, inside the apartment, confronted the officer at the door." That statement is not attempting to inform of Jean's location. It is meant to inform of the location of Guyger when the confrontation occurred. Jean confronted Guyger when she was at the door. But Jean wasn't at the door when the confrontation occurred. Guyger said that she opened the door herself. The location of Jean would be determined later when investigators measured his distance from the door. If I myself have not written ambiguously, you can read the warrant statement again and maybe say, "Oh yeah, now I see it. The stories aren't really different on this issue". |
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25th September 2018, 01:39 PM | #2370 |
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25th September 2018, 01:42 PM | #2371 |
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25th September 2018, 02:01 PM | #2372 |
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Not sure why everyone is so fixated on her being fired, as if it's somehow the end of her career as a police officer. We've seen too many cases of officers fired for good cause, up to and including killing innocent people; who then turned around and regained their positions on appeal, or who were subsequently hired by a different department somewhere else, if they did not end up convicted of a felony. Unless she has a criminal conviction that sends her to prison, chances are very good that she'll end up a cop somewhere else, if not in her original department.
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25th September 2018, 02:18 PM | #2373 |
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I wouldn't be surprised if Guyger has decided that she no longer wants to be a patrol officer with a gun in a holster. Cried her eyes out, apologized to Jean as he was dying and is said to be devastated. She was quoted as saying, "How did this happen?" She may still not understand it at all. Thinking that she will never go to the wrong apartment ever again does nothing against the million other ways that she could make another lethal error on an innocent person.
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25th September 2018, 02:44 PM | #2374 |
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25th September 2018, 03:28 PM | #2375 |
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Our difference of opinion is that you believe in this case that you believe employment decision should be unrelated to the criminal investigation and outcome , I believe because they could be related the employment decision should wait upon the criminal investigation and outcome. Which is what usually does happen in my country.
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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25th September 2018, 03:35 PM | #2376 |
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Acquittal - or being found "not guilty" is NOT the same as being found innocent. It frequently just means that there is insufficient evidence for conviction; that there is reasonable doubt. It's fairly routine, for example, to have both civil and criminal charges levied against an accused individual in the US. Even if the criminal court finds insufficient evidence to convict, damages may still be awarded in the civil suit because there are different levels of proof required to establish wrongdoing.
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25th September 2018, 09:31 PM | #2377 |
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Regarding Guyger being fired, I imagine the police department is faced with a difficult situation. On the one hand they're not supposed to fire her for a charge that has not been tried, but on the other, it might well be clear that, whether or not she manages to escape conviction, she showed poor judgment and acted in a way they don't want cops to act. Aside from that, of course, even if her motive wasn't racist, the result of her action appears so, and a big city police department has to keep such issues in mind.
Even if she can manage to be found technically not guilty, I think the police department should be able to say they find her a liability for various reasons relating to her behavior whether or not it was legally allowable, and disembarrass themselves of her. |
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25th September 2018, 10:02 PM | #2378 |
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I thought we had already cleared that up in this thread.
I think the confusion was that the witness in the hall said that she heard Guyer confronting someone at the door. That makes it unclear whether it was "Guyer" who was at the door or that it was the "someone" she was confronting who was at the door. I think the witness later made a statement that she meant that she heard Guyer at the door confronting someone and that she didn't know where that someone was. |
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25th September 2018, 10:41 PM | #2379 |
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They presumably could have fired Guyer for her actions in the shooting. She quite clearly caused a wrongful death. She made a huge and fatal mistake.
But that is not the reason they give for firing her. They say they fired her because she "engaged in adverse conduct when she was arrested for Manslaughter." That means she was fired simply for being arrested even though she may be innocent and is presumed innocent until proven guilty. I think it is politics and publicity. The public wants her fired and wants the police department to do something. The police department wants to fire her. But they can't fire her without an investigation. That investigation could compel Guyer to provide testimony, which if leaked could violate Guyer's rights and jeopardize the criminal trial. But just suspending Guyer and holding off an investigation after the criminal charges are processed makes it look like the police department isn't doing anything. So they play a game of pushing around responsibility. The Ranger's took over the case and found reason to arrest Guyer. So in lieu of an internal investigation they accept the findings of the Ranger's investigation and fire her on the basis of the arrest that was deemed warranted by the Ranger's investigation. That's probably too flimsy to hold up on appeal. But Guyer may not appeal. And even if she does and the appeal is upheld, the police department can put the blame on Guyer not being fired on the administrative law judge or whomever ruled on the appeal. They can say they will keep Guyer on suspension and will investigate after the criminal process and they can't do anything more than that because they have to abide by the ruling on the appeal. |
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26th September 2018, 01:41 AM | #2380 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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26th September 2018, 01:51 AM | #2381 |
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I think the difference in attitude to this is that in the UK the grounds for dismissal legally have to be directly related to your job performance and contract and have to be fair, reasonable, consistent and proportional.
I've made it clear that from the first affidavit I don't believe her story for a moment, as far as I am concerned she murdered the home owner. But and yes perhaps strangely if I was dealing with this matter as an employer I wouldn't be able to sack her, because one she wasn't on the clock and two it was now a matter of a criminal investigation, I'd need to wait on the outcome of that before I could take any action based on that. And indeed if no prosecution happened or she was found not guilty there is no way I could sack her just because she'd killed someone! |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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26th September 2018, 05:20 AM | #2382 |
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26th September 2018, 05:30 AM | #2383 |
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26th September 2018, 05:45 AM | #2384 |
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Legally you must be presumed innocent unless proved otherwise.
I was pointing out that it is extremely rare to ever be declared innocent at a criminal trial, as this is not normally an option given to the jury. Being found not guilty BARD could be anything from zero evidence of guilt to not quite enough evidence to convince a jury. The defendant would still walk out of the court not guilty. Legally maintaining the presumption of innocence. |
26th September 2018, 06:54 AM | #2385 |
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The search warrant was created on the night of the incident and probably within a few hours of it happening.
The "she" witness that you talking about is actually two sisters. Each has their own apartment and they are near Jean. The police did interview those sisters on the night of the incident. They told the police that they heard gunshots but they did not say that they heard knocking or "Let me in!" or "Oh my god, why did you do that?" Only gunshots. Therefore, the search warrant could not contain anything from the sisters other than hearing gunshots. Then several days later after talking to the Jean family attorney Merritt they tell the brand new story of hearing loud knocking and "Let me in!" and "Oh my god, why did you do that?". The search warrant is essentially Guyger's account of the events as told to investigators who arrived at the scene. But her extended and detailed accounted would come later when she sits down with police interviewers. The search warrant does mention a male neighbor who says he heard an exchange of words immediately followed by at least two gunshots. I've seen no reports suggesting anything other than that he doesn't know what the words were. He doesn't mention any knocking. It seems to me that the words he heard may have been Guyger giving verbal orders to Jean and possibly a verbal response from Jean. |
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26th September 2018, 07:46 AM | #2386 |
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Hell welcome to the real world lady where people get fired or lose their housing for being the victim of a crime. Have an ex stalking and harassing you, say good bye to your job. Of course that is all good and normal. No problems with that. But losing your job over a little accidental killing? Never for a cop.
https://www.americanbar.org/publicat...an_update.html " Studies and surveys show that almost 50 percent of sexual assault survivors lose their jobs or are forced to quit in the aftermath of the crime (S. REP. NO. 138, 103rd Cong., 2d Sess. 54, n. 69 citing E. Ellis, B. Atkeson and K. Calhoun, An Assessment of the Long-Term Reaction to Rape, 50 J. Abnormal Psychology No. 3, 264 (1981))" Clearly I should feel worse for her than a mere rape victim. She is really the true victim here. |
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26th September 2018, 08:02 AM | #2387 |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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26th September 2018, 08:03 AM | #2388 |
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Originally Posted by Toronto Star
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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26th September 2018, 08:07 AM | #2389 |
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I don't see the issue. Just tell Guyver to keep thinking she's employed by the police department and nothing will change since she's the Lathe of Heaven and her thoughts create reality.
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"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. |
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26th September 2018, 08:10 AM | #2390 |
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It's already been reported that the adverse conduct was Guyger's actions leading to the death of Jean. Those actions and the death led to the arrest for manslaughter. She was fired because she was arrested for manslaughter which occurred because of adverse conduct leading to the manslaughter.
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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26th September 2018, 08:33 AM | #2391 |
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Nvm
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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26th September 2018, 08:37 AM | #2392 |
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What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing. 2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break? |
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26th September 2018, 10:17 AM | #2393 |
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"New" is Sept. 21...
New Search Warrants Returned in Botham Jean Death Investigation
Originally Posted by NBCDFW 5 News
The warrants are posted in the article. The two residences that they seek doorbell camera footage from are directly facing the South Side Flats exterior wall where Jean and Guyger live. If the views are unobstructed (like no trees) then these cameras are likely show the balcony windows of Jean and Guyger at close range. If the time-stamping is accurate then the investigators could possibly see lights-on or lights-off in both apartments with some timing precision. |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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26th September 2018, 10:38 AM | #2394 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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26th September 2018, 10:42 AM | #2395 |
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These are their balconies. Google says this street view is from February 2017.
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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26th September 2018, 10:52 AM | #2396 |
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Guyger's balcony in Feb 2017. I believe that she is living there at this time.
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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26th September 2018, 11:11 AM | #2397 |
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I thought she had only lived in those apartments for 6 months or less.
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"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic |
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26th September 2018, 11:14 AM | #2398 |
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Do municipalities carry insurance to pay for civil judgements against them and their police department?
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"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic |
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26th September 2018, 11:19 AM | #2399 |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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26th September 2018, 11:22 AM | #2400 |
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Originally Posted by Dallas Morning News
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