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15th October 2017, 10:49 AM | #1 |
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Culture war and USA politics
The world I experience every day is a secular one. I watch nerdy youtube videos about science or debunking religious claims. I read HuffingtonPost, Slate and various other secular type publications.
I happened to be driving somebody else's car and the radio was tuned to a holy roller station and then I happened on another one. It really struck me how large the gap is between people like me and the religious true believers. It is hard to imagine how these people would ever vote for somebody that isn't pandering to their beliefs. Michelle Bachman says that Trump is now a true Christian that prays to God for help. That strikes me as an incredible lie or incredible gullibility on her part and yet I suspect there are millions of people that believe this. I have thought for a long time that people are largely born skeptical or not. If that is so the coalition of racists and religious fundamentalists that got Trump elected seems almost unassailable. The religious fundamentalists are being skillfully manipulated by cynical people and I don't see how that will change. It is conceivable, that the changing US population demographics and more enthusiasm for voting by the younger folks might help. It looks like the legal challenges to gerrymandering might succeed. It is also possible that the secular economic conservatives will continue to leave the Republican Party as it becomes increasingly a fundamentalist driven organization. Before that happens I hope the US hasn't killed millions of people because it is led by a psychopathic buffoon. There is a reasonable chance now that if Trump succeeds in starting disastrous trade wars, and dismantling the social safety net that hundreds of thousands of people will suffer. Racism will certainly continue to expand as his racist rhetoric continues to enable racists and racist ideas. When I was a kid I wondered why something like Hitler couldn't happen in the US. I think we are getting a real education now about how that could happen here. |
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15th October 2017, 11:22 AM | #2 |
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You're dealing with people who believe there is legislation somewhere delineating the US as a Christian nation.
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15th October 2017, 12:32 PM | #3 |
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While growing up and learning history, I used to marvel at and almost quake in fear over the kinds of intolerance that some societies would descend to. The Spanish Inquisition was one such. Another was the episode of the witch trials in early America. There was the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Hitler and company. And the list goes on...
All it takes is just a small, critical mass of zealots to screw everything up. I hope the current crop of American fundies can have their grasping hands kept off the levers of power. But I despair of the continuing draining of reason and increase in ignorance amongst the populace, and the rapidly growing polarization in society. Something must be done to nip this in the bud. It would appear Trump sees as his opportunity to unify under his flag the fomenting of war abroad. |
15th October 2017, 12:56 PM | #4 |
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Roger Williams, a founder of the colony that would become the state of Rhode Island, would probably find Lurch's post amusing for a different reason.
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Once you take a particular position, it becomes easy to vilify anyone who is not in your camp, Lurch. I am with davefoc on his concern about President Trump likely getting the US involved in ruinous trade wars. No good can come of that, as I see it. |
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15th October 2017, 01:10 PM | #5 |
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15th October 2017, 01:18 PM | #6 |
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15th October 2017, 01:20 PM | #7 |
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When one speculates like I have here there is a kind of catch-22 conundrum that is hard to deal with. The same confirmation biases that drive the fundamentalists to listen to sources that support their beliefs are the same mechanisms that lead skeptics to listen to sources that support their beliefs.
It is almost by definition of one's humanness that one will be mislead by his confirmation biases and self interest biases. How is it even possible for people to make a reasonable stab at identifying truth when our brains reward us relentlessly when we hear stuff we agree with? This is off the topic sort of, but I think it goes to the idea that we need to at least consider the possibility that we are doing something similar to what the true believers do. And just like them what we think of as logically arrived at views may really just be arrived at because on our biases. Darth Rotor: Thanks for the comment about free trade. I thought Sanders ideas on this were just about as problematic as Trump's. So were Clinton's but I was sure she was lying. The difference may be that Sanders might have been more amenable to discussion and analysis. Trump's sudden imposition of timber tariffs really goes to what an ******* he is (I assume the preceding pejorative is going to be blanked with asterisks, isn't it time this forum stopped that stuff?) when he caused the cost of timber and thereby the cost of housing to take a sudden jump and at the same time he screwed the Canadians. |
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15th October 2017, 01:23 PM | #8 |
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Yeah, no. No we are not getting any such education. Trump doesn't resemble Hitler. And I don't just mean that he doesn't want to commit genocide. Trump has no actual ideology. That is in stark contrast to the actual mass-murdering dictators of history. Voters who supported Trump therefore did not do it because of an attraction to an ideology. Some of his supporters have their own ideologies which they might hope he will advance, but there is no real unification around any of them. This is far more a result of a repulsion to an ideology (namely, modern progressivism). That impulse is not coherent enough to do anything like produce a Hitler.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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15th October 2017, 01:26 PM | #9 |
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15th October 2017, 01:47 PM | #10 |
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I'm glad to have some disagreement on this point. My general sense of the situation is that you are largely correct here. However, Trump's actions are almost entirely driven by what he thinks will appeal to his base and what will enhance his self interest. He likes to go to his rallies and listen to the cheering crowd. And a good portion of the people at them are either overt or subtle racists and he relentlessly panders to them by failing to criticize white supremacists and Nazis and by repeated dog whistles like his criticism of Mexicans and his recent racist BS about how Puerto Ricans aren't working to help themselves and how he's going to withdraw federal support.
It is interesting that Trump's administration seems to consider white Judaism and white Christianity as particularly good groups while everybody else that isn't in those groups are subject to criticism. But I'm not so sure how Jews would fare in a world dominated by Christian fundamentalists. Trump's use of memes from anti-Jewish hate groups and his failing to criticize Nazis makes me suspicious of Trumpism's inclusion of Jews in the especially good group in the long run. One last comment on this: Trump does not have dictatorial powers. I think it is almost certain that free speech would be a thing of the past if he did. I think he would engage in torture and he would brutalize his political opponents. Trump is a man without empathy or ethics. The argument that a comparison of him to Hitler is not valid stems entirely on the fact that as I write this, Congress, the traditions of our military leaders and the Supreme court still stand. And it is certainly conceivable that some of those institutions could turn. Republicans are largely sitting silent while a nut job runs the country. How far beyond their silence and acquiescence are they prepared to go? ETA: I should have acknowledged the comment that Trump would not engage in mass murder. I think he might. Mao Tse Tung didn't start out to kill of millions of his people with mass starvation, but when his policies led to this he stayed in power with brutality and murder. I think Trump would do exactly that. Would Trump engage in mass murder if he thought he could further win the hearts and minds of his base? I think he might. Right now I don't think most of his base would be up for it, but some part of it would figure out how to rationalize it. |
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15th October 2017, 03:15 PM | #11 |
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15th October 2017, 03:21 PM | #12 |
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Who actually represents a threat to Jews in the US? It isn't fundamentalist Christians, it's actually radical leftists. There are certainly some right-wing antisemites, but they're far more fringe, far more marginalized, far less influential than the left-wing antisemites.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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15th October 2017, 03:22 PM | #13 |
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15th October 2017, 03:24 PM | #14 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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15th October 2017, 03:26 PM | #15 |
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It's not about calculations. It's about beliefs. Hitler didn't kill 6 million jews himself. He convinced other people to do it for him. And he did so through ideology. No matter how calculating or stupid Trump is, he cannot command similar loyalty, because (again) he has no ideology.
This is no minor detail. It is at the heart of the matter. And nobody advancing the silly notion that Trump could be another Hitler has ever come to terms with it. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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15th October 2017, 03:35 PM | #16 |
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15th October 2017, 03:38 PM | #17 |
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Sorry to dip into such a small part of your well thought out post.
The above, looks like a flat tautology, and therefore doesn't add much. If you mean that people are fixed into their initial state, I'd beg to differ. I can tell you that I was utterly gullible as a small child, and have very clear memories of being "sucked in" by all kinds of ********. My path to skepticism was long and painful. At a fairly early age I realised that religious instruction was just bat poo crazy, but it took me a long time to reject all the other woo in the world. |
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15th October 2017, 03:45 PM | #18 |
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15th October 2017, 03:48 PM | #19 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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15th October 2017, 03:49 PM | #20 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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15th October 2017, 03:54 PM | #21 |
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15th October 2017, 03:55 PM | #22 |
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Just to address this false equivalence, what would you suggest skeptics listen to to maintain a balanced POV?
It's like claiming science is just a different religion. I'm willing to change my POV when evidence is presented supporting an alternative. I do always keep it in the back of my mind that I, like everyone else, have flaws in how I perceive my reality. But evidence based conclusions are closer to reality than other-based conclusions. On the 'it can happen here' note, the second Nazi rally in Charlottesville was very poorly attended. And trump is losing his base by slow attrition. It will be interesting to see if the Bannon/Breitbart movement grows much impact. |
15th October 2017, 03:58 PM | #23 |
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15th October 2017, 04:15 PM | #24 |
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15th October 2017, 04:15 PM | #25 |
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
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15th October 2017, 04:18 PM | #26 |
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15th October 2017, 04:26 PM | #27 |
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I think your last post was spot on. This one, not so much. I don't know virtually any antisemitic leftists. That doesn't mean there aren't any but they are so inconsequential to barely register.
I agree with this part of your post. Trump scares me because he is such a destabilizing force. He's a bull in a china closet seemingly trying to wreck it all. |
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15th October 2017, 04:27 PM | #28 |
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Hi novaphile,
It was this forum that moved my views on this. I am a life long skeptic, I have no memory of religious belief. I thought people either thought like that or they didn't. Your post and similar ones made me realize that my ideas on this were too absolute. None the less, it really seems like the brains of those I call true believers are very different than the people I categorize as skeptics. I occasionally read comments from people on religiously oriented videos and articles. It seems that truth is not something they seek aggressively. A lot is made around here about logical fallacies. I think skeptics would recognize most of them without formal categorization. I suspect religious people do not. And to some degree that is what I see when I read comments on pro-Trump articles. Truth avoidance is rampant and passionate. It is no accident that the largest part of his base are true believers. They are people that readily put aside skepticism if they hear things they like. |
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15th October 2017, 04:30 PM | #29 |
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15th October 2017, 04:44 PM | #30 |
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This I think this is what Ziggurat was talking about when he said that the radical left was anti-Semitic.
By Ziggurat's standards I may be part of the radical left because I believe that US support for Israel should be eliminated while Israel continues to build settlements on the West Bank. I think the US support of Israel is against Israeli and American interests and causes massive suffering in the region. As to this specific incident, I wasn't aware of it. I don't know enough to know exactly what I would have done. I am not anti-Israeli, I am against Israel's policies with regard to the Palestinians. I might have argued that the flag should have been allowed in the parade since it represented Israeli's people more than it represented its policies but I am strongly opposed to the policies of Israel with respect to the Palestinians and I might have argued that flying the flag implied support for Israel's Palestinian policies and it therefor should not have been allowed. Ziggurat disagrees with my views on the Israeli/Palestinian disputes, although he has never called me a leftist anti-Semite, I assume I would qualify to Ziggurat as a radical leftist. On most other issues Ziggurat and I have somewhat similar views. I also suspect that Ziggurat is one of the smartest people that I have ever directly communicated with, so if intelligence is a basis for trusting somebody's views I probably should always agree with him. |
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15th October 2017, 04:49 PM | #31 |
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You were warned but thought it wasn't real:
"When you were asked, what's the biggest geopolitical threat facing America, you said 'Russia.' Not Al-Qaeda; you said Russia,"*Obama charged. "And, the 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back, because, the Cold War's been over for 20 years." Now, for partisan reasons, you act concerned. |
15th October 2017, 04:53 PM | #32 |
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It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150 |
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15th October 2017, 05:00 PM | #33 |
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15th October 2017, 05:04 PM | #34 |
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I don't think anybody that is arguing here that Trump has the potential to do some very bad things would argue that he would do exactly the very bad things that Hitler did. As I mentioned, I believe he is a man without empathy or ethics. A man like that has the potential to do enormous damage when he obtains power.
Here's some thoughts: Unnecessary war with North Korea. Unnecessary war with Iran. Savaging the US economy with his anti-free trade policies or his tax policies that would harm almost everybody except the wealthy and that would lead to massive deficits. Brutalizing of his political opponents if he can get enough sycophants in positions of power. Routine mistreatment of prisoners and minorities. IMO, the American democracy is stronger than the German democracy was at the onset of WWII and per force Trump's ability to maneuver as a savage dictator are more limited than Hitler's were. As somebody that has followed Trump over the last couple of years I am not aware of a single example of substantive empathy on his part. He has advocated torture, started numerous cons designed to exploit people far less off than he is, laughed at invalids, bragged about sexual assaults, on at least two occasions he engaged on what seems to have been attempted rape, cheated bond holders in his corporations, attempted to foment racist division by lying about Muslims cheering after 9/11, actively sought the death penalty for the Central Park five and lied after evidence exonerating them was found, and routinely lied about almost everything. I don't think anybody knows the limits of what Trump would do if he was unencumbered by the workings of the American Democracy. |
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15th October 2017, 05:06 PM | #35 |
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And you see no potential for an extreme government from the left? The Ayatollah of Watts? Or the Social Justice Warrior Party? Or Antifada?
The real demon is the divisiveness, not the dividees. We should be going after the dividers. Meantime the real problem is the same one Hitler had- It's the economy, stupid. Hitler blamed Da Jews, in America today half of us blame the other half, and vice versa. Because it's easier that way. And last time I looked,there were plenty of Conservative Christian Democrats too. |
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15th October 2017, 05:15 PM | #36 |
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This is wrong. The entire BDS movement is a child of the left, not the right. They are extremely influential in academia, for example. And they pop up in funny places, too, like Valerie Plame. The antisemitic left is not at all inconsequential. It doesn't dominate the left, but it still matters.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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15th October 2017, 05:17 PM | #37 |
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Ok so nobody in this thread is saying it would be a big genocide and invasion of neighboring countries along with other Nazi-like stuff going on here in America all done by the government. Yes? Nobody in this thread is proposing that, right?
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15th October 2017, 05:18 PM | #38 |
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Hi SG, this is roughly my view as well, but it is worrisome. I am a human (you will need to trust me on that) and how do I know that what seems like truth is just my brain working to fool me? Introspection and analysis seem like a possible answer but sometimes I disagree with people who seem to be introspective and analytical. So maybe I'm falling in to some sort of trap there but not at other times. Maybe I'm right most of the time except when I disagree with SG?
I hope you're right about Trump's support. I am friends with several true believers on Facebook and it doesn't seem like they are going to be swayed anytime soon. And listening to a holy roller on the radio argue that freedom of religion in the constitution means that government should be allowed to support Christianity over other religions, especially over the beady eyed atheists didn't fill me with confidence. |
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15th October 2017, 05:25 PM | #39 |
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To remove any confusion about my views on this:
1. A WWII disaster like Germany is unlikely 2. A disaster on the scale of what happened to China or what continues to happen in North Korea is unlikely 3. Even any kind of mass murder events enacted by the US government are unlikely 4. If Trump was a dictator and lost the restraints imposed on him by the rest of the US government, I think the consequences could be staggeringly bad for the US and the world. As I have mentioned twice previously I believe he is a man without empathy and without ethics and it is not possible to predict how bad things might become but I think it is a reasonable guess that things would be very bad. |
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15th October 2017, 05:26 PM | #40 |
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This is certainly a hard-left position, but whether it qualifies as antisemitism in my view depends on a few other factors which you haven't specified here, such as your opinion of other players in the region and our relationship with them. But that's really a subject for another thread. Suffice to say for here, the threat to Jews doesn't come from fundamentalist Christians (of which Trump isn't one anyways).
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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