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Tags police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 7th September 2018, 12:06 PM   #481
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
I think this is serious issue in US policing, that a great many officers really do not understand this distinction.
Yep. In this particular case, catching an 11-year-old and holding them without causing them significant pain should be ridiculously easy for anyone in decent physical condition.
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Old 7th September 2018, 03:20 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
I think this is serious issue in US policing, that a great many officers really do not understand this distinction.

I think they understand the distinction quite well; because the training philosophy is that weapons are supposed to be used to stop suspects from running away. It's called "compliance enforcement". There have been more extensive descriptions of it posted in various threads, including this one IIRC. Basically, it's a process for escalation of force against a non-compliant suspect, that does not allow any form of non-compliance from the suspect, and rapidly goes from verbal commands to pulling weapons, lethal or otherwise. US police are rarely taught de-escalation techniques or non-violent conflict resolution the way that many European nations teach their law enforcement personnel.
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Old 8th September 2018, 06:40 AM   #483
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Here, some US police officers are taught by the Scottish police how deal with violence without shooting anyone;

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/n...dly-force.html

If all US police were shown the same, the death rate would drop.
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Old 8th September 2018, 07:21 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Here, some US police officers are taught by the Scottish police how deal with violence without shooting anyone;

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/n...dly-force.html


If all US police were shown the same, the death rate would drop.
Indeed
Quote:
At another exercise, a Scottish officer played a despondent man with a shotgun under his chin. But Dave Harvey, an assistant police chief in Phoenix, later said the response by the Scottish team of armed officers was curious.

“They’re not behind cover,” Chief Harvey said.
ETA:

And coming back to my point from one of the other threads:

one of the comments

Quote:
An excellent article but omits the fact that it took the Scots a long time to learn how to deal with their often violent population. Highland Scotland and industrial Glasgow were, in their time, extremely violent places. Today, unlike the USA, the Scots accept highly controlled violence but only by the state whereas the US accepts that violence has often to be determined by the individual citizen or policeman The Revolution is worshiped in the USA and the very idea that Government can be resisted by force is accepted. Most Scots believe in reform not revolution whereas some Americans actually believe that Revolution might still be necessary against a future government. The" right to bear arms' is only part of the problem in a country that believes it was necessary to use force to start the country and continues to celebrate the use of that force. The Scots were often extremely violent and are still excellent soldiers, but as said, they believe in controlling not glorifying violence. Consequently, policing is difficult but not impossible in the way it often is in the USA.
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Old 8th September 2018, 07:27 AM   #485
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Which is why it will never happen in the USA and Americans (and tourists) need to learn to cope with cop shootings.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:37 PM   #486
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Which is why it will never happen in the USA and Americans (and tourists) need to learn to cope with cop shootings.

We've already learned to cope with them, we've been doing that for many decades.

What we need to learn is how to not have to cope with them.
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Old 9th September 2018, 01:32 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
We've already learned to cope with them, we've been doing that for many decades.

What we need to learn is how to not have to cope with them.
Sorry, but that is not going to happen for a very long time, if ever.
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Old 10th September 2018, 07:02 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'm being completely serious when I say the thieving little **** didn't deserve to be tased, the cop is an idiot. Furthermore, I don't believe the theft charges should have been dropped.
Yep theft charges, so they get a fine, and a large settlement for excessive force with the fine deducted from it.

Say $300 fine and $50,000 settlement for excessive force.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:23 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep theft charges, so they get a fine, and a large settlement for excessive force with the fine deducted from it.

Say $300 fine and $50,000 settlement for excessive force.
Sounds good to me, as long as it's a matter of record that she is a thieving little ****. A fact that seems to have been missed.
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Old 11th September 2018, 10:45 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Sounds good to me, as long as it's a matter of record that she is a thieving little ****. A fact that seems to have been missed.
Just as a matter of negotiations: They dropped the theft charges to save money on the settlement.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:28 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'm being completely serious when I say the thieving little **** didn't deserve to be tased, the cop is an idiot. Furthermore, I don't believe the theft charges should have been dropped.
Arresting children for trivial stuff is not a good use of police or prosecutorial resources. The cops should take her home to her mom and explain why; if it's a continuing problem, CPS should get involved. Maybe the kid is stealing food because there's no food at home. The militarization of the police is one big problem; the criminalization of childhood pranks is another.
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Old 11th September 2018, 11:54 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The militarization of the police is one big problem; the criminalization of childhood pranks is another.
I'd say that the criminalization of children is the problem. For example, having police officers stationed at schools may seem like a good idea to people (because of their great history of success in preventing tragedies), but how would they feel if their kid got dragged off in handcuffs after a shoving match in the hall? Or, worse, and we've seen this, if their kid gets assaulted by a police officer for nonviolent acting out in a classroom, something that wouldn't be criminal for any adult?
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:06 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Arresting children for trivial stuff is not a good use of police or prosecutorial resources. The cops should take her home to her mom and explain why; if it's a continuing problem, CPS should get involved. Maybe the kid is stealing food because there's no food at home. The militarization of the police is one big problem; the criminalization of childhood pranks is another.
How old do you have to be before it stops being a prank? Please let me know so I can arrange for a suitably aged individual to pop round to yours and relieve you of your possessions.

Last edited by bluesjnr; 12th September 2018 at 01:08 AM.
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Old 12th September 2018, 01:20 AM   #494
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Quote:
An excellent article but omits the fact that it took the Scots a long time to learn how to deal with their often violent population. Highland Scotland and industrial Glasgow were, in their time, extremely violent places. Today, unlike the USA, the Scots accept highly controlled violence but only by the state whereas the US accepts that violence has often to be determined by the individual citizen or policeman The Revolution is worshiped in the USA and the very idea that Government can be resisted by force is accepted. Most Scots believe in reform not revolution whereas some Americans actually believe that Revolution might still be necessary against a future government. The" right to bear arms' is only part of the problem in a country that believes it was necessary to use force to start the country and continues to celebrate the use of that force. The Scots were often extremely violent and are still excellent soldiers, but as said, they believe in controlling not glorifying violence. Consequently, policing is difficult but not impossible in the way it often is in the USA.

That is one of the most unintentionally hilarious things I've read in years. Has the author of that comment ever been to Scotland I wonder? Has he ever even read any material on contemporary Scottish current affairs? Thought not.
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:08 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
How old do you have to be before it stops being a prank? Please let me know so I can arrange for a suitably aged individual to pop round to yours and relieve you of your possessions.
And you don't think there should be any age? Jail for a six-year-old who steals a candy bar? Four-year-old? Sticky-fingered toddler?

Our legal system already codifies distinctions between adults and juveniles. We recognize distinctions between adult and juvenile thought processes. Misbehavior by an 11-year-old might require official intervention by CPS, but it shouldn't be a criminal matter.
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Old 13th September 2018, 03:39 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
And you don't think there should be any age? Jail for a six-year-old who steals a candy bar? Four-year-old? Sticky-fingered toddler?
Is this a poorly worded question? Otherwise, how on earth do you arrive at that conclusion from what I've written in this thread?

Quote:
Our legal system already codifies distinctions between adults and juveniles. We recognize distinctions between adult and juvenile thought processes. Misbehavior by an 11-year-old might require official intervention by CPS, but it shouldn't be a criminal matter.
I believe (I may be wrong) your legal system recognises theft as a federal crime and given that 33 states set no minimum age of criminal responsibility and for federal crimes, the minimum age of criminal responsibility is 11. Then the thieving little **** should should be charged.
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Old 13th September 2018, 07:30 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I believe (I may be wrong) your legal system recognises theft as a federal crime...
You are totally and completely wrong.
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Old 13th September 2018, 09:32 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Is this a poorly worded question? Otherwise, how on earth do you arrive at that conclusion from what I've written in this thread?

Your response was this:
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
How old do you have to be before it stops being a prank? Please let me know so I can arrange for a suitably aged individual to pop round to yours and relieve you of your possessions.
That sure implies that you don't see a minimum age for criminal responsibility.

Quote:
I believe (I may be wrong) your legal system recognises theft as a federal crime and given that 33 states set no minimum age of criminal responsibility and for federal crimes, the minimum age of criminal responsibility is 11. Then the thieving little **** should should be charged.
Shoplifting is certainly not a federal crime. And repeatedly referring to an 11-year-old child as a "thieving little *****" displays a dangerously irrational level of hostility. I hope you're not a parent, and if you are, I hope CPS is keeping an eye on your family.
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:21 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That sure implies that you don't see a minimum age for criminal responsibility.
The problem you have here is that you are completely and utterly wrong about this, where do we go from here?

Quote:
Shoplifting is certainly not a federal crime.
Noted. Perhaps an award for her contribution to the local society is in order

Quote:
And repeatedly referring to an 11-year-old child as a "thieving little *****" displays a dangerously irrational level of hostility.
"Dangerously irrational level of hostility"? What are you on?

Quote:
I hope you're not a parent, and if you are, I hope CPS is keeping an eye on your family.
I'm afraid you're too late and I've gotten away with raising a son (he's 31 now) who left school with an impressive academic credentials and entered further education resulting in a First-Class Honours degree. He is and been in full time employment since graduating and doing exactly that which he studied hard to do and doing rather well at it. He has never been convicted of theft or any other crime and that is in all probability because he is not in the habit of committing crimes. He is a sober man respected by his peers with a large circle of friends. He keeps in very regular contact and we have a fantastic relationship. I could not be prouder of him and will happily insist that he has turned out the way he has due to how he was brought up and the supporting and loving home he came from.

I find your accusation deeply offensive, shame on you for disparaging me in this way simply because I have the temerity to call a thieving little **** exactly what they are.

If you could take the time I would really like to know how you arrived at the conclusion that the CPS (?) should be monitoring me if I were still bringing a child up?
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:23 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
You are totally and completely wrong.
I acknowledged that I may be in advance, so cool yer jets. I didn't realise that I could be, not only wrong but totally wrong and completely wrong all at the same time.

Thanks.
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:31 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
....
If you could take the time I would really like to know how you arrived at the conclusion that the CPS (?) should be monitoring me if I were still bringing a child up?
CPS is Child Protective Services, or the equivalent under a similar name, the state or local agency that investigates abuse of children by their parents and others. Calling a child a "thieving little ****" displays a lack of compassion that no doubt reflects your personality and worldview. And we haven't heard your kid's account of his idyllic childhood with you.
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:33 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I acknowledged that I may be in advance, so cool yer jets. I didn't realise that I could be, not only wrong but totally wrong and completely wrong all at the same time.

Thanks.
While I only quoted part of one post, I was referring to everything you've said.
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Old 13th September 2018, 03:33 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
<snip>

I'm afraid you're too late and I've gotten away with raising a son (he's 31 now) who left school with an impressive academic credentials and entered further education resulting in a First-Class Honours degree. He is and been in full time employment since graduating and doing exactly that which he studied hard to do and doing rather well at it. He has never been convicted of theft or any other crime and that is in all probability because he is not in the habit of committing crimes. He is a sober man respected by his peers with a large circle of friends. He keeps in very regular contact and we have a fantastic relationship. I could not be prouder of him and will happily insist that he has turned out the way he has due to how he was brought up and the supporting and loving home he came from.

<snip>

And you are absolutely, 100% certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that he never so much as stuck a candy bar in his pocket while he was in a grocery store the entire time he was a child?

Impressive.
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:40 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
And you are absolutely, 100% certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that he never so much as stuck a candy bar in his pocket while he was in a grocery store the entire time he was a child?

Impressive.
I don't recall making that claim or anything remotely like it. I don't understand what you find "impressive" about something I've never said?

I was and I am under no illusions whatsoever about what my son may have got up to and in to whilst growing up. I can, however, assure you that he's no career criminal.

Last edited by bluesjnr; 14th September 2018 at 12:03 AM.
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Old 13th September 2018, 11:59 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
While I only quoted part of one post, I was referring to everything you've said.
What? Is it not the case that 33 states set no minimum age of criminal responsibility and for federal crimes, the minimum age of criminal responsibility is 11? Am I wrong about that too?

You might disagree that the girl should be charged but that doesn't make me wrong, that's not how things work.

Am I wrong about the fact that she's a thief? Given that the girl's own family admitted she was shoplifting and she had about $50 worth of goods in her backpack when she was arrested it seems that I'm bang on the mark. That's not an opportunistic candy bar hurriedly stuffed into a back pocket, it's outright, deliberate and targeted theft. Please tell me how I'm wrong.

Now you might also be appalled and distraught, like others, about the fact that I called her a little **** (you realise that you may not be parsing the right pejorative here) but again that's opinion and it's based on her actions as described previously. You don't get to set the rules.

I think you are using the words completely, totally and wrong, wrongly.
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Old 14th September 2018, 12:24 AM   #506
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
CPS is Child Protective Services, or the equivalent under a similar name, the state or local agency that investigates abuse of children by their parents and others.
It is the Crown Prosecution Service over here so you might excuse my confusion. I won't hold my breath though, since you seem to have an appetite for a fight.

I notice you didn't answer my request for clarification as to why you "hope CPS is keeping an eye on [my] family."

Quote:
Calling a child a "thieving little ****" displays a lack of compassion that no doubt reflects your personality and worldview.
My compassion for her extends to the over zealous policing and handling of this case and my sympathy for the girl ends there. She is a thief, pure and simplen and that is a statement of fact. You might be able to argue that she's not a little **** but her behaviour would put you on the back foot somewhat.

Quote:
And we haven't heard your kid's account of his idyllic childhood with you.
For goodness sake! Take a second and read what you've written there and try and get a grip on yourself.

It's quite the story you're concocting there.
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Old 14th September 2018, 12:38 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I don't recall making that claim or anything remotely like it. I don't understand what you find "impressive" about something I've never said?

I was and I am under no illusions whatsoever about what my son may have got up to and in to whilst growing up. I can, however, assure you that he's no career criminal.

You seem to be more certain about the eleven year old girl we're discussing.

If your son had be caught swiping a candy bar when he was eleven would you have been discussing him in the same terms you are using for this eleven year old?
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Old 14th September 2018, 01:18 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You seem to be more certain about the eleven year old girl we're discussing.
What is it that you are disputing?

Quote:
If your son had be caught swiping a candy bar when he was eleven would you have been discussing him in the same terms you are using for this eleven year old?
Why are you so obsessed with my son?

Seriously? You want me to start imagining scenarios you've made up involving my son? This isn't going to achieve anything and won't advance this particular derail. You are desperate to show that I'm inconsistent when I've made it clear that I'm not in this regard. You are that desperate to trip me up you are inventing little stories about a grown man you've never met back when he was a little boy.

If my son was a thieving little **** then that is exactly how I would refer to him when discussing him with others. You can't argue that his actions in your fantasy would not be thieving, so it seems you are having trouble with the masked portion of my description. You'll need to take that up with mods and the auto censor as I'm not about to fall foul there. I would say that the censored word is very, very much at the lower end of a pejorative profanity.

I'm amused at how you guys have turned this thread about the behaviour of US police officers in to my imagined abuse of my son based on me calling a thieving little **** and thieving little ****. Crack on.
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Old 14th September 2018, 11:22 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
What is it that you are disputing?



Why are you so obsessed with my son?

<snip>

You're the one who brought him up and offered him as a paragon of virtue.

If you didn't want to discuss him, maybe you shouldn't have ... you know ... discussed him.
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Old 14th September 2018, 11:48 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You're the one who brought him up and offered him as a paragon of virtue.
I brought the subject of my offspring and my parenting abilities up in this thread? Are you sure about that? Maybe you should look back at the exchanges herein and get back to me.

What you have done by making this ridiculously incorrect assertion is prove that you are trolling at the lowest level.

Quote:
If you didn't want to discuss him, maybe you shouldn't have ... you know ... discussed him.
I didn't want to discuss him and never mentioned him at all but when the level of critical thinking reached the stage of;

"she's a thieving little ****" = " I hope you're not a parent, and if you are, I hope CPS is keeping an eye on your family."

I felt I should put the authors feeble mind at ease and explain that my contribution to society, in that regard, had worked out quite well. This seemed to irk you for reasons best known to yourself and if you read what I wrote about him as me asserting he is a "paragon of virtue" (someone who is the very best, a particular moral excellence) you might want to give me some evidence of that or explain your reasoning, if you might. Otherwise, I fall back on my previous accusation.

If the fact that my son has grown up to be a well adjusted, contributing member of society, bothers you so much (and it clearly does, what with your negative fantasies about him and the fact you're flogging a dead horse) then you need to ask yourself why that might be? Please don't reflect your inadequacies, whatever they might be, onto me or mine.

I hope you get better soon.

Last edited by bluesjnr; 14th September 2018 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 5th October 2018, 01:06 AM   #511
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Bump

ETA: Bumping to provide context to this thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=332176 so folk don't have to go hunting for it.
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Old 5th October 2018, 01:57 AM   #512
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And in Baltimore news:

Quote:
“There’s no organization in the department,” he said. “There’s a lot of infighting that the public doesn’t know about, doesn’t see. I can’t be a part of it. I’m not that type of person.”

Standfield said no one from the agency reached out to him about his well-being after the incident in Gillis’ office.

“Their thing was ‘terminate him and get him out of the building,’” he said. “I tell you, I think the [department] really and truly needs to be started all over again.”
Bmore's police force has been badly run for quite some time now, as shown by it's numerous scandals, many of which are still being litigated in courts. And it's become increasingly clear that it's unmanageable, and unable to recruit new officers - bit's reputation is in the mud both inside the city and outside. I grew up in Boston, so I can't really know where the problems are typical of policing in major cities, and how much is unique to Bmore - I've never heard of anything from the 80s-00s that I didn't hear of in Boston, or that I didn't hear of from people in other cities (aside from Chicago - a black site complete with torture chamber is impressive!).
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Old 5th October 2018, 12:20 PM   #513
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45739335

"It was shortly after 05:00 when three West Milwaukee police officers broke into the home of 22-year-old Adam Trammell to find him naked and bewildered, standing in his bathtub as water from the shower ran down his body.

Adam, who had been diagnosed with schizophrenia, was having some form of breakdown. A neighbour had called 911 to report that she had seen him naked in the corridor, talking about the devil...

The officers then fired their Tasers at him 15 times, administering long, painful electric shocks as he screamed and writhed in the bathtub.

Then more officers arrived, and after dragging him, still naked, from his apartment, they held him down and he was injected with sedatives - midazolam at first, and then ketamine.
Moments later, Adam stopped breathing. He was taken to hospital and pronounced dead soon after arrival. The date was 25 May 2017."

"Already in 2018, across the US, at least 136 people with a disability are known to have been killed by police officers, according to a database maintained by the Washington Post and analysis of local media reports."

And on it continues with no signs of abatement.
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Old 5th October 2018, 12:32 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45739335

"It was shortly after 05:00 when three West Milwaukee police officers broke into the home of 22-year-old Adam Trammell to find him naked and bewildered, standing in his bathtub as water from the shower ran down his body.

Adam, who had been diagnosed with schizophrenia, was having some form of breakdown. A neighbour had called 911 to report that she had seen him naked in the corridor, talking about the devil...

The officers then fired their Tasers at him 15 times, administering long, painful electric shocks as he screamed and writhed in the bathtub.

Then more officers arrived, and after dragging him, still naked, from his apartment, they held him down and he was injected with sedatives - midazolam at first, and then ketamine.
Moments later, Adam stopped breathing. He was taken to hospital and pronounced dead soon after arrival. The date was 25 May 2017."
It all seems perfectly reasonable. After all, there was a reported mention of the devil.
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Old 7th October 2018, 07:24 PM   #515
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Interesting view from the other side of the thin blue line....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 7th October 2018, 07:38 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Interesting view from the other side of the thin blue line....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Too long, not going to try finding where the commercial stops and content starts.
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Old 7th October 2018, 09:33 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Too long, not going to try finding where the commercial stops and content starts.
His videos don't usually have all the clutter at the start, but you can jump to 3:55 to avoid it.
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Old 8th October 2018, 11:50 AM   #518
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Interesting view from the other side of the thin blue line....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Just wanted to tell him to keep his hands on the wheel and concentrate on driving. If talking on a mobile phone (cell phone) is equivalent to being inebriated then so must blogging whilst driving.

I guess the key message is where he says he nearly shot a completely innocent man and would have been justified in doing so because he thought he might have been going for a gun.
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Old 8th October 2018, 11:56 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45739335

"It was shortly after 05:00 when three West Milwaukee police officers broke into the home of 22-year-old Adam Trammell to find him naked and bewildered, standing in his bathtub as water from the shower ran down his body.

Adam, who had been diagnosed with schizophrenia, was having some form of breakdown. A neighbour had called 911 to report that she had seen him naked in the corridor, talking about the devil...

The officers then fired their Tasers at him 15 times, administering long, painful electric shocks as he screamed and writhed in the bathtub.

Then more officers arrived, and after dragging him, still naked, from his apartment, they held him down and he was injected with sedatives - midazolam at first, and then ketamine.
Moments later, Adam stopped breathing. He was taken to hospital and pronounced dead soon after arrival. The date was 25 May 2017."

"Already in 2018, across the US, at least 136 people with a disability are known to have been killed by police officers, according to a database maintained by the Washington Post and analysis of local media reports."

And on it continues with no signs of abatement.
The report
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45739335
is headlined 'Don't shoot I'm disabled' in essence it points out that whilst the news has focused on people of colour (color) being shot whilst innocent; the risk is even greater if you are disabled. The proportion of disabled people shot (or otherwise killed) by police would seem disproportionate to their involvement in crime. The poor man with Down's who died during restraint is even sadder. The lack of apology by or investigation of the police forces involved is also depressing.
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Old 8th October 2018, 01:24 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45739335

"Then more officers arrived, and after dragging him, still naked, from his apartment, they held him down and he was injected with sedatives - midazolam at first, and then ketamine."
How is that even legal?
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