Swept up in the drama of it all

[Robin]

A long time ago I was invited by friends on an animal rights demo. They were good friends who had done me many a good turn and I came along gladly.

The demo was a terrifying allicance of punks and old ladies. There were fences turn down, policemen's helmets knocked off. And the punks weren't much better.

At one point I realised that the scientists inside the defense research facility we were protesting must be getting, at the minimum, highly nervous. The chant of "Porton Down, Porton Down, Close, close close it down" had turned to "Burn it down" despite the efforts of the organisers to stop this. People were getting past the police and close to the buildings.

And I realised that I had no idea about whether or not the allegations of what was going inside were true or had ever weighed up the necessity of defence research. But here I was getting swept up in the drama of it all. As I am on the autism spectrum I am adversely affected by loud noises and confusion. I eventually took myself to the side of the road and sat down and waited for the roaring in my head to subside. A policeman found the time to come up and ask if I was OK. I said I was, adding "Sorry about all of this". He grinned and said "We've had worse".

So I was wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences. Further it led me to wonder how many people who join causes of any kind actually believe what they are protesting about. I know for a fact that at least some of people on the National Front marches are actually decent people when you meet them individually, and actually having no real opinion of racial superiority, nothing against black or Indian people.

Not making any particular argument, just seeing what ideas bounce around.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Robin

A long time ago I was invited by friends on an animal rights demo. They were good friends who had done me many a good turn and I came along gladly.

The demo was a terrifying allicance of punks and old ladies. There were fences turn down, policemen's helmets knocked off. And the punks weren't much better.

At one point I realised that the scientists inside the defense research facility we were protesting must be getting, at the minimum, highly nervous. The chant of "Porton Down, Porton Down, Close, close close it down" had turned to "Burn it down" despite the efforts of the organisers to stop this. People were getting past the police and close to the buildings.

And I realised that I had no idea about whether or not the allegations of what was going inside were true or had ever weighed up the necessity of defence research. But here I was getting swept up in the drama of it all. As I am on the autism spectrum I am adversely affected by loud noises and confusion. I eventually took myself to the side of the road and sat down and waited for the roaring in my head to subside. A policeman found the time to come up and ask if I was OK. I said I was, adding "Sorry about all of this". He grinned and said "We've had worse".

So I was wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences. Further it led me to wonder how many people who join causes of any kind actually believe what they are protesting about. I know for a fact that at least some of people on the National Front marches are actually decent people when you meet them individually, and actually having no real opinion of racial superiority, nothing against black or Indian people.

Not making any particular argument, just seeing what ideas bounce around.

My first thought was this....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

But seriously, there are many, many cases where these types of protests attract an element who don't give a fat rat's arse about the reasons for the protest, they are just there for the ruckus. The Parliament Protests in NZ last year were like that... attracted right-wing extremists, white nationalists and neo-Nazis (judging by all the swastikas, Kekistan flags and other vile symbology).
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[Robin]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

My first thought was this....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Not so very far off.

[Norman Alexander]

Mob violence. No sense to it, but easy to manipulate.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

My first thought was this....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

But seriously, there are many, many cases where these types of protests attract an element who don't give a fat rat's arse about the reasons for the protest, they are just there for the ruckus. The Parliament Protests in NZ last year were like that... attracted right-wing extremists, white nationalists and neo-Nazis (judging by all the swastikas, Kekistan flags and other vile symbology).
.
.

I'm surprised that video hasn't appeared on the Drag thread....

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Robin

So I was wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences. Further it led me to wonder how many people who join causes of any kind actually believe what they are protesting about. I know for a fact that at least some of people on the National Front marches are actually decent people when you meet them individually, and actually having no real opinion of racial superiority, nothing against black or Indian people.

Apart from a few anti-Brexit marches, it's been decades since I've been an active participant in demonstrations and counter demonstrations.

You're right that it can be comparatively easily to "whip up a mob" depending on how febrile the atmosphere and how giddy the participants are. The middle class champagne socialists (as I am now) with their comfortable lives would have been impossible to radicalise on the pro-EU march, the young Socialist firebrands (as I was then) on the Clause 28, Miners' and anti-Fascist marches would have been easy.

My experience of people on National Front marches is now decades out of date but I found that every single one of them was deeply racist. I also found that they were the same kind of people heckling the pro-EU marches. Perhaps you're more broadminded than I am or perhaps a different kind of person attends NF marches these days.

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by Robin

...

So I was wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences. Further it led me to wonder how many people who join causes of any kind actually believe what they are protesting about. I know for a fact that at least some of people on the National Front marches are actually decent people when you meet them individually, and actually having no real opinion of racial superiority, nothing against black or Indian people.

Not making any particular argument, just seeing what ideas bounce around.

Kinda/sorta...

A long time ago, I took three friends to a public concert in a park by the beach.

It was a relatively small reserve, with hundreds of people sitting shoulder to shoulder on the grass.

After the bands finished playing (Sandy and the Sunsets and Psuedo Echo) people stayed on the reserve with a summer picnic kind of atmosphere.

Lots of police turned up and started trying to make trouble.

This came to a head when a group of five police officers decided to stop a guy from returning to his group on the reserve, with more beer that he'd purchased.

We were sitting right next to the edge of the reserve where that was going on, and I could clearly hear every word of the conversation, including: "I don't get it, they're right there, and no one is doing anything wrong."

After shoving the guy a few times, three of the police threw the guy to the ground and arrested him.

The crowd turned on the police in an instant and the atmosphere switched from summer picnic to full blown riot.

I was mainly concerned with getting the three girls out in one piece, and didn't hang around to see the outcome.

Which was 63 arrests, police cars rolled over and set on fire, lots of property damage.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/116386192

[gypsyjackson]

Originally Posted by The Don

Apart from a few anti-Brexit marches, it's been decades since I've been an active participant in demonstrations and counter demonstrations.

You're right that it can be comparatively easily to "whip up a mob" depending on how febrile the atmosphere and how giddy the participants are. The middle class champagne socialists (as I am now) with their comfortable lives would have been impossible to radicalise on the pro-EU march, the young Socialist firebrands (as I was then) on the Clause 28, Miners' and anti-Fascist marches would have been easy.

My experience of people on National Front marches is now decades out of date but I found that every single one of them was deeply racist. I also found that they were the same kind of people heckling the pro-EU marches. Perhaps you're more broadminded than I am or perhaps a different kind of person attends NF marches these days.

When my brother was a journo, he wrote a short factual piece about an EDL march in Peterborough. It just noted it had happened, how many people there were, that it and a counter protest had been peaceful, and carried a quote from an organiser and a counter-protestor.

He got death threats from upset, self identifying ‘proud EDL members’. So I don’t think they can really be described as decent - or at least the average level of decency must be below my standards.

ETA: I meant to say that these people weren’t caught up in the drama of it all. The day after a march, they read a newspaper article and took the time to write an email and letters to threaten someone’s life.

[arthwollipot]

I have ochlophobia. This thread isn't helping at all.

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I have ochlophobia. This thread isn't helping at all.

Sorry dude, if I'd known, I would have buried it in spoiler tags.

I'm slightly similar, in that I have an intense dislike of crowds.
(Makes me twitchy and somehow triggers the fight/flight response)

[Thermal]

It's a little surreal for an American to hear about policemen's helmets being knocked off or their cars flipped over. Our police would almost certainly kill you. No finger wagging. No trying to be reasonable peacekeepers. They. Would. Kill. You. It's a given, not an outlier chance. One of the few times I saw cops +/- back off was during the George Floyd protests in Philadelphia PA, where the crowd was left to pretty much do what they wished. In Atlantic City NJ, a smaller protest-turned-smallish-looting was also left to run its course, but those guys are pretty much laissez-faire anyway.

I just can't picture knocking the helmet off a policeman's head and him not knocking your head off your neck.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I have ochlophobia. This thread isn't helping at all.

Sorry.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

My first thought was this....

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

But seriously, there are many, many cases where these types of protests attract an element who don't give a fat rat's arse about the reasons for the protest, they are just there for the ruckus. The Parliament Protests in NZ last year were like that... attracted right-wing extremists, white nationalists and neo-Nazis (judging by all the swastikas, Kekistan flags and other vile symbology).
.
.

This is what Happened in the BLM protests back in 2020. A few jerks and people looking for an excuse to do some looting an d some wackjob Anarchists and general purpose hoodlums got involved, did some looting and vandalism, and managed to distract from the main point of the demonstration.
These types of Alpha Hotels come in all political flavors.

[crescent]

Originally Posted by dudalb

This is what Happened in the BLM protests back in 2020. A few jerks and people looking for an excuse to do some looting an d some wackjob Anarchists and general purpose hoodlums got involved, did some looting and vandalism, and managed to distract from the main point of the demonstration.
These types of Alpha Hotels come in all political flavors.

Some of those jerks were on the police payroll:

How an FBI Informant Derailed Denver’s BLM Movement

Quote:

Arroyo said she saw Windecker at an August demonstration that “very quickly, once more people gathered, turned into something like ‘actually we should just go bust out some windows.’” Arroyo said she was suspicious of the demonstration’s turn, and moved to leave with some friends.

“Some of us became visibly uncomfortable. He started being like ‘come on you guys, Black lives matter, don’t they? Aren’t we all gonna do this?’” Soon thereafter, Windecker and the two people he’d arrived with “started blatant property damage on government buildings,” she said.

Arroyo and a fellow activist of color backed away, “freaked out, because we’re Black people in Denver,” she said. “We were like ‘this is not at all why we’re here.’”

That said, it can be human nature to get swept up in mobs like that.

I remember a scene from a book I read some years ago. I think it was For Whom the Bell Tolls. One of the guerillas goes into the Fascist-controlled town for some reason or another. So long as nobody recognizes him he's just another Spanish guy in a Spanish town, nobody knows he's one of the guerillas.

While he's in town there's a fascist rally and he ends up getting swept up in it, chanting their slogans and singing their songs and loving it. Then he goes back to the cave with the other guerillas and resumes the fight against the fascists. When the other guerillas find out that he was in the rally, they are disappointed but a little bit understanding. They understand the pull of a mob.

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by Robin

A long time ago I was invited by friends on an animal rights demo. They were good friends who had done me many a good turn and I came along gladly.

The demo was a terrifying allicance of punks and old ladies. There were fences turn down, policemen's helmets knocked off. And the punks weren't much better.

At one point I realised that the scientists inside the defense research facility we were protesting must be getting, at the minimum, highly nervous. The chant of "Porton Down, Porton Down, Close, close close it down" had turned to "Burn it down" despite the efforts of the organisers to stop this. People were getting past the police and close to the buildings.

And I realised that I had no idea about whether or not the allegations of what was going inside were true or had ever weighed up the necessity of defence research. But here I was getting swept up in the drama of it all. As I am on the autism spectrum I am adversely affected by loud noises and confusion. I eventually took myself to the side of the road and sat down and waited for the roaring in my head to subside. A policeman found the time to come up and ask if I was OK. I said I was, adding "Sorry about all of this". He grinned and said "We've had worse".

So I was wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences. Further it led me to wonder how many people who join causes of any kind actually believe what they are protesting about. I know for a fact that at least some of people on the National Front marches are actually decent people when you meet them individually, and actually having no real opinion of racial superiority, nothing against black or Indian people.

Not making any particular argument, just seeing what ideas bounce around.

It happens online and in the media too.

It's called an Availability Cascade.

"An availability cascade is a self-reinforcing cycle that explains the development of certain kinds of collective beliefs. A novel idea or insight, usually one that seems to explain a complex process in a simple or straightforward manner, gains rapid currency in the popular discourse by its very simplicity and by its apparent insightfulness. Its rising popularity triggers a chain reaction within the social network: individuals adopt the new insight because other people within the network have adopted it, and on its face it seems plausible. The reason for this increased use and popularity of the new idea involves both the availability of the previously obscure term or idea, and the need of individuals using the term or idea to appear to be current with the stated beliefs and ideas of others, regardless of whether they in fact fully believe in the idea that they are expressing. Their need for social acceptance, and the apparent sophistication of the new insight, overwhelm their critical thinking.

"The idea of the availability cascade was first developed by Timur Kuran and Cass Sunstein as a variation of information cascades mediated by the availability heuristic, with the addition of reputational cascades. The availability cascade concept has been highly influential in finance theory and regulatory research, particular with respect to assessing and regulating risk."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_cascade

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

It happens online and in the media too.

It's called an Availability Cascade.

"An availability cascade is a self-reinforcing cycle that explains the development of certain kinds of collective beliefs. A novel idea or insight, usually one that seems to explain a complex process in a simple or straightforward manner, gains rapid currency in the popular discourse by its very simplicity and by its apparent insightfulness. Its rising popularity triggers a chain reaction within the social network: individuals adopt the new insight because other people within the network have adopted it, and on its face it seems plausible. The reason for this increased use and popularity of the new idea involves both the availability of the previously obscure term or idea, and the need of individuals using the term or idea to appear to be current with the stated beliefs and ideas of others, regardless of whether they in fact fully believe in the idea that they are expressing. Their need for social acceptance, and the apparent sophistication of the new insight, overwhelm their critical thinking.

"The idea of the availability cascade was first developed by Timur Kuran and Cass Sunstein as a variation of information cascades mediated by the availability heuristic, with the addition of reputational cascades. The availability cascade concept has been highly influential in finance theory and regulatory research, particular with respect to assessing and regulating risk."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_cascade

I've often thought that people who sack staff on the strength of some twitter mob should consider that the apparently huge mob was probably only about 0.001% of the people online at the time, most of them had no idea what they are complaining about and nearly all of them will have completely forgotten about it five minutes after they participated.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by crescent

Some of those jerks were on the police payroll:

How an FBI Informant Derailed Denver’s BLM Movement



That said, it can be human nature to get swept up in mobs like that.

I remember a scene from a book I read some years ago. I think it was For Whom the Bell Tolls. One of the guerillas goes into the Fascist-controlled town for some reason or another. So long as nobody recognizes him he's just another Spanish guy in a Spanish town, nobody knows he's one of the guerillas.

While he's in town there's a fascist rally and he ends up getting swept up in it, chanting their slogans and singing their songs and loving it. Then he goes back to the cave with the other guerillas and resumes the fight against the fascists. When the other guerillas find out that he was in the rally, they are disappointed but a little bit understanding. They understand the pull of a mob.

As Chesterton said, look at the most extremist member of a protest group and you've probably got yourself a police or intelligence cuckoo.

[novaphile]

Sadly I've forgotten the source, but I can remember a skit (or perhaps a Mad Comic scene) where every member of a radical group tries to arrest every other member of the radical group, at the same time.

Because they were all stooges, for the FBI, BATF, CIA, Customs, Harbors and Fisheries, various police departments etc.