Is the "Woke mob" destroying college education?

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

I'm pretty well astounded that we're 37 posts in and nobody has cited Betteridge's law of headlines.
When I went to college in the late 1960's, groups of right-wing thugs, oops, I mean varsity football players on scholarship, would go around campus at night assaulting guys with long hair. When caught, they got a stern talking-to by the coach. For getting caught. Is that just fine with the OP?

Its very offensive that you think I would condone such reprehensible violence.

[qayak]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Denial of a specific platform is not denial of free speech. I don't agree with the practice of shouting down speakers with whom I disagree, but let's not pretend doing so denies that speaker of their right to free speech. That we usually see that same speaker on Fox News later that day crying about it is fairly solid evidence that it doesn't.

Free speech isn't limited to certain venues where you want people you disagree with to be confined.

[Venom]

Noam Chomsky spoke up about this once.

Well said.

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I AGREE

[qayak]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

So then "woke mobs" aren't actually "destroying college education".

But somehow, liberal college students who yell at people are the real problem.

Students who get offended by course subject matter when it conflicts with their few minutes of adult thought is one of the big issues. As an example; go watch videos of university discussions on gender being held and what happens when an actual biologist states facts. See what the repercussions are for the biologist . . . you know, the expert?

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

"Unlawful gender-based discrimination is prohibited in the following areas:

Employment:
It is unlawful to refuse to hire, promote, or fire a person because of a person’s actual or perceived gender, including being or being perceived to be transgender, non-binary, or gender non-conforming. It is also unlawful to set different compensation or terms and conditions of employment because of an employee’s gender. Examples of terms and conditions of employment include work assignments, employee benefits, and keeping the workplace free from harassment.

Public Accommodations:
It is unlawful for providers of public accommodations, their employees, or their agents to deny any person, or communicate intent to deny, the services, advantages, facilities or privileges of a public accommodation directly or indirectly because of their actual or perceived gender, including being or being perceived to be transgender, non-binary, or gender non-conforming. Simply put, it is unlawful to deny any person full and equal enjoyment of a public accommodation because of gender.

Housing:
It is unlawful to refuse to sell, rent, or lease housing to someone because of their actual or perceived gender, including being or being perceived to be transgender, non-binary, or gender non-conforming. It is unlawful to withhold from any person full and equal enjoyment of a housing accommodation because of their gender.

1. Failing To Use the Name or Pronouns with Which a Person Self-Identifies

The NYCHRL requires employers and covered entities to use the name, pronouns, and title (e.g., Ms./Mrs./Mx.)15 with which a person self-identifies, regardless of the person’s sex assigned at birth, anatomy, gender, medical history, appearance, or the sex indicated on the person’s identification"

"Examples of Violations
a. Intentional or repeated refusal to use a person’s name, pronouns, or title. For example, repeatedly calling a transgender woman “him” or “Mr.” after she has made clear that she uses she/her and Ms.

b. Refusal to use a person’s name, pronouns, or title because they do not conform to gender stereotypes. For example, insisting on calling a non-binary person “Mr.” after they have requested to be called “Mx.”

c. Conditioning a person’s use of their name on obtaining a court-ordered name change or providing identification in that name. For example, a covered entity may not refuse to call a transgender man who introduces himself as Manuel by that name because his identification lists his name as Maribel.17"

". PENALTIES IN ADMINISTRATIVE ACTIONS
The Commission can impose civil penalties up to $125,000 for violations, and up to $250,000 for violations that are the result of willful, wanton, or malicious conduct. The amount of a civil penalty will be guided by the following factors, among others:
• The number of violations;
• The severity of the violation;
• The existence of previous or subsequent violations;
• The willfulness of the violation;
• The employer’s size, considering both the total number of employees and its revenue;
• Any efforts the employer has made to promptly remedy violations; and
• The employer’s actual or constructive knowledge of the NYCHRL.

These penalties are in addition to the other remedies available to people who successfully resolve or prevail on claims under the NYCHRL, including, but not limited to, back and front pay, along with other compensatory and punitive damages. The Commission may consider the lack of an adequate anti-discrimination policy as a factor in determining liability, assessing damages, and mandating certain affirmative remedies."

Please highlight the portion that says calling someone "sir" instead of "madam" will result in a $250,000 fine and or prison.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by qayak

Students who get offended by course subject matter when it conflicts with their few minutes of adult thought is one of the big issues. As an example; go watch videos of university discussions on gender being held and what happens when an actual biologist states facts. See what the repercussions are for the biologist . . . you know, the expert?

Here’s a better idea: Instead of handing out homework assignments, why don’t you tell me? Please make sure to provide citations.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by qayak

Free speech isn't limited to certain venues where you want people you disagree with to be confined.

No one said it was. But if a speaker is not allowed to speak at a certain venue, but is allowed to speak at another one, they have not been denied free speech. They’ve only been denied a certain venue.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

No one said it was. But if a speaker is not allowed to speak at a certain venue, but is allowed to speak at another one, they have not been denied free speech. They’ve only been denied a certain venue.

So you're ok with black people being denied the ability to speak at certain colleges?

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Please highlight the portion that says calling someone "sir" instead of "madam" will result in a $250,000 fine and or prison.

The law clearly states that repeated incidents of harassment, including the use of the wrong pronoun, can lead to penalties up to $250,000.

You read what I cited, right???

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

So you're ok with black people being denied the ability to speak at certain colleges?

Every bit as much as you’re okay with colleges being forced to host speakers who give speeches about how Black people are inferior.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

The law clearly states that repeated incidents of harassment, including the use of the wrong pronoun, can lead to penalties up to $250,000.

You read what I cited, right???

Yes, I read the part about penalties for harassment. I’m waiting for you to point to the part about penalties for merely calling someone "sir" instead of "madam".

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Every bit as much as you’re okay with colleges being forced to host speakers who give speeches about how Black people are inferior.

I dont think anyone expects colleges to host outright racists and bigots as speakers. Nice strawman.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Yes, I read the part about penalties for harassment. I’m waiting for you to point to the part about penalties for merely calling someone "sir" instead of "madam".

I cited the section refering to pronouns and others terms of reference that are gender specific.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I dont think anyone expects colleges to host outright racists and bigots as speakers. Nice strawman.

I don’t think anyone expects colleges to deny Black people the ability to speak. Nice strawman.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I cited the section refering to pronouns and others terms of reference that are gender specific.

You cited a section about harassment, not one about merely using the wrong pronouns.

If that’s the best you can do, it’s not a very convincing argument. It just makes it seem like you’re in favor of harassment.

I guess if you want to harass transgender people, just don’t be a landlord or employer in New York.

Lucky for you though, there are still many other places and areas of public life where you can freely harass transgender people. I’m sure you’ll muddle through somehow.

[Brainster]

As someone who interacts with college students on a daily basis, I can say that I see no evidence that a lot of the woke BS matters to them. It does help that I'm tutoring them in a field that largely is impervious to the SJW nonsense (finance), so it's almost always just math or arithmetic.

Most kids are at college to get an education (or to party). Few of them are activists, but of course those who are are very visible.

[Robin]

My free speech has been stifled.

Neither Fox News nor Sky News Australia will give me a five minute spot each week to say what I like.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I honestly believe that all colleges especially colleges that receive public funding, must formally and vocally commit to the concept of free speech and the peaceful and civil exchange of ideas within the university space. That includes tolerating and allowing the exchange of ideas even when such ideas may be contrary to one's own strongly held beliefs and values. Colleges must commit to not tolerate speakers and students and teachers from being allowed to express their views in a peaceful and civil way. Students who choose to violate the principle of freedom of speech and the free exchange of ideas and tried to shout down and shut down and stop different views from being expressed should be escorted out of classrooms and if necessary all school property. And arrested and charged with trespassing if they refuse to comply. Colleges need to make it understood that the principle of freedom of speech is just as important as the principles of our liberal democracy that we hold very dear.

Should they make it clear that they are not talking about if he was being expressed by neo-nazis and racists and KKK yes there's nothing wrong with making such an exception. But people simply expressing different views regarding abortion or immigration or taxation or Palestine or nuclear weapons or native rights etc etc should not have to face being shouted down in classrooms that are in part being funded by his tax dollars.

Colleges talk about the need for "safe spaces" for various social ethnic and gender groups? How about safe spaces for freedom of speech?

Originally Posted by Hercules56

https://nypost.com/2023/03/15/stanfo...et-revenge-da/

We are hearing time and time again about moms of ultra progressive youth shutting down and silencing classes and speakers in colleges where unpopular views are expressed. We're not talking about neo-nazis or fascists or KKK. We're simply talking about people who are conservative or even people who are moderate, but have been known to express views that go against progressive ideals when it comes to the environment, Palestine, abortion, immigration etc.

And the worst thing is often times colleges are doing nothing to stop this defacement and intrusion upon free speech and the free exchange of ideas in the University space. Sometimes college personnel even advocate for and support students shouting down and preventing unpopular or controversial views from being expressed.

Is this what we really want for our country?

Is this what we really want for our kids?

If we allow this to continue and to become the norm in our society what does this mean for the future of our country?

Yes.
The woke mob is destroying education.
I know enough retired academics in New Zealand to confirm this is so.

[pipelineaudio]

Amazing the amount of strawmanning the authoritarians have to go thru in order to dodge answering the OP honestly

[Robin]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Amazing the amount of strawmanning the authoritarians have to go thru in order to dodge answering the OP honestly

The story linked is about someone who lied about rape to get revenge on a co-worker. That is the kind of thing that can and does happen anywhere, lawyers offices accountancy firms, etc.

What does it have to do with colleges in particular other than that this particular instance happened in a college?

And what does it have to do.with "woke"

[Myriad]

What makes anyone think the current conduct of college education is anything other than what the current corporate and government markets for college-educated personnel wants it to be?

The products of the universities are eager to support whatever political causes they're told are in vogue; trained, tested and certified for their ability to discern what their superiors want to hear and then say it; accustomed to personal luxury and comfortable surroundings; and in debt. Ideal characteristics for the obedient-lapdog-of-the-oligarchy class.

What's the problem? Who exactly is protesting that it should be otherwise?

[Robin]

When I went to university the person with free speech was the lecturer, the tutor or anyone who raised their hand and got called in or interrupted politely within reason.

If anyone disrupted a class they did get escorted out by a security guard.

Can someone give an example of the sort of thing the OP is talking about so that we have something concrete to go on?

Also some sort of research showing the prevalence of the problem.

[kookbreaker]

In case you are falling for the OP's line, let me share an account of what happens when the government declares war on 'Woke' on college campuses.

This is in Florida, the New College of Florida. Books were yanked from library shelves by barely literate goons, and DeSantis installed an utterly inept crony as President of the college. One of my classmates from High has kid who is in their 3rd year there when all this happened. Here is her account of one of his efforts at explaining that catastrophically dropping enrollment and loss of legacy donors was just fine:

Quote:

The Interim President of New College of Florida, Richard Corcoran, admitted this morning at the NCF Foundation board meeting that he was rejected when he applied to...wait for it...New College of Florida.
After listening to him blather incoherently, fail to produce basic statistics (admissions, enrollment this year compared to last) about the school he is supposedly leading, claim that everything can be fixed with better food and "more sports," repeatedly called the independent study program (ISP) the "IOC," dismissed complaints and criticism from students, parents, faculty and alumni as "not real," claim that un-named mystery donors will more than make up for the donors pulling their legacy donations and asking for refunds, suggest selling off campus land, brag about talking to students and then focus on one because he has only talked with one, etc, I think I know why.
The wheel is still spinning, but the hamster died.
I did learn that the students call him Dick Cockring.

This is what the OP wants in the world.

[qayak]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Here’s a better idea: Instead of handing out homework assignments, why don’t you tell me? Please make sure to provide citations.

Your argument has been reduced to denying all citations which is the last vestige of the woke.

"The man who won't read is no better than the man who can't read." (Mark Twain)

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

https://nypost.com/2023/03/15/stanfo...et-revenge-da/

We are hearing time and time again about moms of ultra progressive youth shutting down and silencing classes and speakers in colleges where unpopular views are expressed. We're not talking about neo-nazis or fascists or KKK. We're simply talking about people who are conservative or even people who are moderate, but have been known to express views that go against progressive ideals when it comes to the environment, Palestine, abortion, immigration etc.

And the worst thing is often times colleges are doing nothing to stop this defacement and intrusion upon free speech and the free exchange of ideas in the University space. Sometimes college personnel even advocate for and support students shouting down and preventing unpopular or controversial views from being expressed.

Is this what we really want for our country?

Is this what we really want for our kids?

If we allow this to continue and to become the norm in our society what does this mean for the future of our country?

No. Next leading question please.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Brainster

As someone who interacts with college students on a daily basis, I can say that I see no evidence that a lot of the woke BS matters to them. It does help that I'm tutoring them in a field that largely is impervious to the SJW nonsense (finance), so it's almost always just math or arithmetic.

Most kids are at college to get an education (or to party). Few of them are activists, but of course those who are are very visible.

I'm assuming you're talking about right wingers making stuff up in order to be angry at stuff, seeing as that's 99.999999999999999999999999999999999% of what "SJW nonsense" is.

I did finance in college, luckily my lecturers had the sense to point out early and clearly that most economic and financial theory is right wing nonsense with no relationship to reality.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Amazing the amount of strawmanning the authoritarians have to go thru in order to dodge answering the OP honestly

The op asks a leading question, backing it up with both weasel words and outright lies. Can't get any more accurate than that.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

In case you are falling for the OP's line, let me share an account of what happens when the government declares war on 'Woke' on college campuses.

This is in Florida, the New College of Florida. Books were yanked from library shelves by barely literate goons, and DeSantis installed an utterly inept crony as President of the college. One of my classmates from High has kid who is in their 3rd year there when all this happened. Here is her account of one of his efforts at explaining that catastrophically dropping enrollment and loss of legacy donors was just fine:



This is what the OP wants in the world.

No, i just want civil and polite free speech to be respected again.

[qayak]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

No, i just want civil and polite free speech to be respected again.

That's part of the issue, people only want speech to be civil and polite. Freedom of speech isn't for that. Freedom of speech is for those thoughts that offend and arouse.

My experience has been that people who don't offend or arouse with their speech are exceedingly boring.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Amazing the amount of strawmanning the authoritarians have to go thru in order to dodge answering the OP honestly

Woke mobbin’ ain’t easy.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by qayak

Your argument has been reduced to denying all citations which is the last vestige of the woke.

"The man who won't read is no better than the man who can't read." (Mark Twain)

No evidence for your claim, then. Got it, thanks.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

No, i just want civil and polite free speech to be respected again.

Parroting right wing propaganda and ignoring all the ways conservatives are attacking free speech sure was a strange way to express this point of view.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by qayak

That's part of the issue, people only want speech to be civil and polite. Freedom of speech isn't for that. Freedom of speech is for those thoughts that offend and arouse.

My experience has been that people who don't offend or arouse with their speech are exceedingly boring.

Are they more or less boring than right wing hacks regurgitating the same culture war nonsenses over and over again and pretending it’s because they care about free speech?

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by qayak

That's part of the issue, people only want speech to be civil and polite. Freedom of speech isn't for that. Freedom of speech is for those thoughts that offend and arouse.

My experience has been that people who don't offend or arouse with their speech are exceedingly boring.

Its true, but i can understand not wanting to give a venue for outright Nazis and other extreme bigots.

However, folks who support stronger immigration laws, stronger abortion laws, weaker environmental regulations, no authoritarian rules regarding LBGT issues, should be allowed to speak on college campuses without fear of being bullied off stage.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Its true, but i can understand not wanting to give a venue for outright Nazis and other extreme bigots.

However, folks who support stronger immigration laws, stronger abortion laws, weaker environmental regulations, no authoritarian rules regarding LBGT issues, should be allowed to speak on college campuses without fear of being bullied off stage.

“People shouldn’t be denied a speaking venue unless I personally find their points of view objectionable.”

Doesn’t sound very free speechy to me.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

“People shouldn’t be denied a speaking venue unless I personally find their points of view objectionable.”

Doesn’t sound very free speechy to me.

That's because Neo-Nazis and KKK are not known for their speech being civil or polite.

And I don't believe we should give a venue to terrorists.

[kookbreaker]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

No, i just want civil and polite free speech to be respected again.

Well guess what you end up with when you promote rage-bait to prove your cause. You get this.

Well done. You must be so very, very proud.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Students heckling speakers isn't a threat to free speech.

Students heckling speakers IS free speech.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

No, i just want civil and polite free speech to be respected again.

If you value free speech you should support the right to criticize people for saying offensive things. What you want to do is suppress free speech for things you disagree with, which is not free speech in any way.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

That's because Neo-Nazis and KKK are not known for their speech being civil or polite.

And I don't believe we should give a venue to terrorists.

You’re acting as if the right wing isn’t sending these kind of people to speak at college campuses to provoke the very reaction you’re decrying in this thread. Because that’s exactly what they’re doing.

Then they can play the victim and claim their free speech rights are being infringed. And right on cue, people like you will tell us “woke mobs” are destroying college education.

It seems you don’t want to acknowledge your role in this cynical charade or own up to what it is you’re actually defending.