Criminal Charges Against Trump

[arayder]

You all may recall my posts in the past in which I expressed trepidation at the at the several crazy things Trump might do upon being indicted.

It seems to me Trump has taken a preemptive strike here.

Any ideas on the logistics of arresting, extraditing and holding an ex-president, folks?

[tyr_13]

Originally Posted by arayder

You all may recall my posts in the past in which I expressed trepidation at the at the several crazy things Trump might do upon being indicted.

It seems to me Trump has taken a preemptive strike here.

Any ideas on the logistics of arresting, extraditing and holding an ex-president, folks?

Scuttlebutt is that Secret Service was coordinating with New York about the logistics. They will provide him for processing, fingerprinting and all. Monday was the earliest day I heard for him being turned over.

[Fast Eddie B]

I'd love to see the prosecution establish Trump as a "flight risk" and propose a solution to that - ankle monitor, surrender of passport, house arrest, whatever.

Some wag on Twitter suggested he couldn't be a flight risk - the weight vs lift ratio would be way too high!

[carlosy]

Too bad it was leaked to him.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Scuttlebutt is that Secret Service was coordinating with New York about the logistics. They will provide him for processing, fingerprinting and all. Monday was the earliest day I heard for him being turned over.

Yeah, ya' gotta' figure this sort of thing would be coordinated. Just showing up at his door ain't gonna' work.

The coordination of the arrest, if this is all legit, had to have been known by Trump and it figures he'd run his mouth about it.

Now the arresting officers have to plan for a Trump mob at the site of the arrest.

[bruto]

It does introduce an interesting possibility here, though. Isn't this latest post readable as another call for insurrection? If I were in Trump's shoes I'd be mighty afraid of what might happen if his request is heeded. He's not actually the President any more. Even if he were not guilty, I think interference with the process would be illegal, and people might be a little less inclined to pooh-pooh his statement as an incitement in so many words, if once again, it erupts into violence.

[newyorkguy]

I think the way it works is, New York County Court will issue an order requiring trump appear at such-and-such time on such-and-such date. When he shows up with counsel he will go to the specified court room, the arrest warrant will be entered into the record and the judge will order trump be taken into custody. His lawyer, Joe Tacopina, has already explained, last Friday, trump will surrender to the court.

Quote:

Trump will surrender himself if he’s charged in a high-profile criminal probe in New York into hush money payments, according to the former president’s attorneys. “There won’t be a standoff at Mar-a-Lago with Secret Service and the Manhattan DA’s office,” Joe Tacopina told The New York Daily News. Yahoo News link

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

trump apparently posted this on Truth Social about an hour ago, his prediction he'll be arrested Tuesday.



I think the worrisome part for local officials is the last five words.

Wait, what? He referred to himself as the FORMER president? Trump never wrote that!

[arayder]

Originally Posted by bruto

It does introduce an interesting possibility here, though. Isn't this latest post readable as another call for insurrection? If I were in Trump's shoes I'd be mighty afraid of what might happen if his request is heeded. He's not actually the President any more. Even if he were not guilty, I think interference with the process would be illegal, and people might be a little less inclined to pooh-pooh his statement as an incitement in so many words, if once again, it erupts into violence.

I am guessing that this all works by Trump voluntarily turning himself in and is immediately arraigned by a judge who releases him on his own recognizance.

At that point my old questions about whether the court can order him off social media and instruct that he not to "try the case on the court house steps" come into play?

Thoughts, folks?

[newyorkguy]

Last Thursday Business Insider published an article on 'what to expect.'

Quote:

Don't count on handcuffs. Don't expect a dramatic, flash-bulb-dappled perp walk. But yes, there will be a mugshot, and fingerprinting, and a mandatory DNA cheek-swabbing — and a "not guilty" plea, though not necessarily in open court.

It's pretty much a certainty that Trump would remain free, and likely without any bail set at all. Under New York's recently-reformed, progressive bail laws, defendants can only be ordered held on bail if the judge finds they are a flight risk. Business Insider link

No bail? I would imagine his lawyers will argue, 'he's running for president, he's not going anywhere.'

Order him off social media? Issue a gag order? (Don't try the case on the court house steps.) I don't expect that. trump still has first amendment rights. How could the court justify doing that? Possibly once a trial actually gets underway, participants would be reminded not to discuss the case outside of court, but that would be routine. Only we're not there yet. Not quite anyway.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

Last Thursday Business Insider published an article on 'what to expect.'


No bail? I would imagine his lawyers will argue, 'he's running for president, he's not going anywhere.'

Order him off social media? Issue a gag order? (Don't try the case on the court house steps.) I don't expect that. trump still has first amendment rights. How could the court justify doing that? Possibly once a trial actually gets underway, participants would be reminded not to discuss the case outside of court, but that would be routine. Only we're not there yet. Not quite anyway.

OK, I hear ya'. That works for most folks. But what happens if he starts calling for his mob to "fight like hell" and they all show up the court House or the White House?

[Tero]

Kevin McCarthy: defund the police! stop them from arresting Trump!

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

If it is Tuesday, then he can say “it happened just as I said.”

If it doesn’t happen Tuesday, then he can say “the reason nothing happened Tuesday is that the people that love America spoke out in such numbers that the criminal empire became scared. My followers spoke up and they were forced to listen. My followers, my loyal followers, the true and honest Americans spoke loudly enough to stop the criminals.”

Needs more CAPbell.

[The Greater Fool]

The thing is that it's an open secret that the Manhattan DA has reached out to Trump's lawyers to arrange a day/time that would be convenient for Trump to turn himself in for booking and his perp walk. If Trump is openly talking Tuesday it's because that's apparently the current mutually agreed day for it to happen.

I'm sure Trump will be ramping it up until then. I hope we don't hear any of his supporters say "Here, hold my beer..."

[alfaniner]

Originally Posted by arayder

OK, I hear ya'. That works for most folks. But what happens if he starts calling for his mob to "fight like hell" and they all show up the court House or the White House?

I'd say he's done that already.

Quote:

PROTEST, TAKE OUR NATION BACK!

[shemp]

Originally Posted by arayder

OK, I hear ya'. That works for most folks. But what happens if he starts calling for his mob to "fight like hell" and they all show up the court House or the White House?

Hopefully, they get mowed down, but it's not likely. I doubt there will be any organized violence. A few idiots might get out of hand and get arrested on minor charges.

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by shemp

Hopefully, they get mowed down, but it's not likely. I doubt there will be any organized violence. A few idiots might get out of hand and get arrested on minor charges.

It would emotionally destroy Trump if the overall reaction from conservatives was, "meh".

[MRC_Hans]

Well, he'll be able to keep up with the Putinses, then.

Hans

[Stacyhs]

If he runs true to course, Trump will use any opportunity to be the center of attention even when it comes to the actual arrest. He'll welcome flashing lightbulbs and a crowd of reporters and use it to show what a 'victim' of a witch hunt and hoax he is.

To no one's surprise, Republican politicians are rallying around Dear Leader:

Kevin McCarthy: "Here we go again — an outrageous abuse of power by a radical DA who lets violent criminals walk as he pursues political vengeance against President Trump.

I’m directing relevant committees to immediately investigate if federal funds are being used to subvert our democracy by interfering in elections with politically motivated prosecutions."

MTG: "If the Manhattan DA indicts President Trump, he will ultimately win even bigger than he is already going to win.

And those Republicans that stand by and cheer for his persecution or do nothing to stop it will be exposed to the people and will be remembered, scorned, and punished by the base.

President Trump did nothing wrong and has always fought for the American people, and we all know it, which is why we love him.

And any Republican who thinks the Democrats will stop this madness once Trump is out of the way is fooling themselves.

Weaponized Government and Political Persecution are new chapters in their playbook and they will use those methods against anyone who stands in their way.

And we are absolutely fed up with the two-tiered justice system or rather INJUSTICE system in America.

The base has had enough of Republicans that won’t stand up for the people and against the Democrats war against Trump, his admin, his supporters, and traditional values."

Mike Pence: "Well, like many Americans, I'm just, I'm taken aback. You have a major crime wave in New York, especially New York City. You have literally a Democratic party that's literally dismantled the criminal justice system in that city, undercut the NYPD, and this is what the Manhattan DA syas is their top priority? It reeks of the kind of political prosecution that we endured back in the days of the Russia hoax and the whole impeachment over a phone call. And the one thing I know is, I know that President Trump can take care of himself."

Matz Gaetz: "Virtually every campaign finance violation involves either 1) spending other people’s money illegally or 2) taking money into your campaign that you shouldn’t.

Trump did neither. He used his own money to resolve a private dispute, irrespective of any campaign.

The impending indictment is based on an untested, tortured legal theory.

This is an absurd abuse of the criminal process in our politics.

It must be seen for the partisan pathetic ploy it is."

[arayder]

Ok, here's a Saturday Night Live skit. . .

An actor make up like Jerry Orbach, the old cop Lennie Briscoe from Law & Order, arrests Donald Trump. . . "Don't muss yo hair gitting in da car, Mr. Ex-President."


Your lines, welcomed. . . .

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by arayder

Ok, here's a Saturday Night Live skit. . .

An actor make up like Jerry Orbach, the old cop Lennie Briscoe from Law & Order, arrests Donald Trump. . . "Don't muss yo hair gitting in da car, Mr. Ex-President."


Your lines, welcomed. . . .

Hopefully, the arresting cop takes Trump's advice:

"When you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just see them thrown in, rough. I said, ‘Please don’t be too nice.’"

[Norman Alexander]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Kevin McCarthy: "Here we go again — an outrageous abuse of power by a radical DA who lets violent criminals walk as he pursues political vengeance against President Trump.

I’m directing relevant committees to immediately investigate if federal funds are being used to subvert our democracy by interfering in elections with politically motivated prosecutions."

Says the guy whose influence and position was bought by non-journalists at Fox News.

Quote:

MTG: "If the Manhattan DA indicts President Trump, he will ultimately win even bigger than he is already going to win.

And those Republicans that stand by and cheer for his persecution or do nothing to stop it will be exposed to the people and will be remembered, scorned, and punished by the base.

President Trump did nothing wrong and has always fought for the American people, and we all know it, which is why we love him.

And any Republican who thinks the Democrats will stop this madness once Trump is out of the way is fooling themselves.

Weaponized Government and Political Persecution are new chapters in their playbook and they will use those methods against anyone who stands in their way.

And we are absolutely fed up with the two-tiered justice system or rather INJUSTICE system in America.

The base has had enough of Republicans that won’t stand up for the people and against the Democrats war against Trump, his admin, his supporters, and traditional values."

She could suck Trump's golf ball through a garden hose. Maybe she is expecting to be paid $130,000 too?

Quote:

Mike Pence: "Well, like many Americans, I'm just, I'm taken aback. You have a major crime wave in New York, especially New York City. You have literally a Democratic party that's literally dismantled the criminal justice system in that city, undercut the NYPD, and this is what the Manhattan DA syas is their top priority? It reeks of the kind of political prosecution that we endured back in the days of the Russia hoax and the whole impeachment over a phone call. And the one thing I know is, I know that President Trump can take care of himself."

Translation: Dweeb says that he stands 110% behind his bully of a former boss, and will disown him and push him under the bus when the chips are down.

Quote:

Matz Gaetz: "Virtually every campaign finance violation involves either 1) spending other people’s money illegally or 2) taking money into your campaign that you shouldn’t.

Trump did neither. He used his own money to resolve a private dispute, irrespective of any campaign.

The impending indictment is based on an untested, tortured legal theory.

This is an absurd abuse of the criminal process in our politics.

It must be seen for the partisan pathetic ploy it is."

Is Matt talking about Trump...or himself??

[Stacyhs]

These Trump sychopants all seem to be on the same talking points page:

1. Minimize or dismiss the impending criminal charges by:

2. Misdirecting to irrelevant and unconnected NY crime rate.

3. Making accusations of Democrat party politics being behind the charges (witch hunt, vengeance, partisanship, etc)

4. Making accusations of election interference (the irony burns here)

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

These Trump sycophants all seem to be on the same talking points page:

1. Minimize or dismiss the impending criminal charges by:

2. Misdirecting to irrelevant and unconnected NY crime rate.

3. Making accusations of Democrat party politics being behind the charges (witch hunt, vengeance, partisanship, etc)

4. Making accusations of election interference (the irony burns here)

However, I have read two legal arguments on RT.com, that I find interesting:

Quote:

Tacopino added that Trump cannot be prosecuted in the state of New York for a federal election charge, and since Trump’s personal funds were used to pay the porn actress, the payment was not a campaign expense at all.

(https://www.rt.com/news/573200-trump...-stormy-bragg/).

Note: Trump lawyer's real name in this case is Joe Tacopina, not Joe Tacopino.

[shemp]

Originally Posted by Michel H

However, I have read two legal arguments on RT.com, that I find interesting:

(https://www.rt.com/news/573200-trump...-stormy-bragg/).

Got any sources other than Russian propaganda?

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Michel H

However, I have read two legal arguments on RT.com, that I find interesting:

(https://www.rt.com/news/573200-trump...-stormy-bragg/).

We'll just have to wait and see what the actual charges are and what evidence they have, won't we? Remember, lawyers always make claims that benefit their clients. They aren't necessarily true.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

To no one's surprise, Republican politicians are rallying around Dear Leader:

I responded to several of those on Twitter:

“Better might be…

I am saddened by the fact that Donald Trump, who I respect and admire, is about to be criminally indicted. But I must respect the fact that a duly appointed District Attorney appears to believe he can successfully prove his case in this matter. So, if we are to be a nation of laws, we must respect the system, whatever the outcome.”

But very little of this sort of sentiment from the alleged party of “Law and Order”.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by shemp

Got any sources other than Russian propaganda?

I found these two articles:

NBC News: Trump lawyer puts forward Stormy Daniels' hush money defense: ‘It’s not a crime’ (3 days ago)
(https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...crim-rcna75082).

Washington Post: Trump lawyer Joe Tacopina's arguments on hush-money case (3 days ago)
(https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...tormy-daniels/).

[thaiboxerken]

I heard on MSNBC that it's been discovered that Joe Tacopina (Taco Penis - credit to Stephanie Miller) counseled or gave legal consultation to Stormy Daniels, and he's on video saying so. This will likely get him tossed off the case due to legal conflict of interest.

Trump really does hire the worst lawyers, probably because any lawyer that's actually competent knows that Trump is the worst client who doesn't pay bills.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by shemp

Got any sources other than Russian propaganda?

I share your disdain for RT, but even a broken clock is right on occasion.

As far as I can see, the legal questions here aren't much different than they were with John Edwards when he was accused of using campaign cash to pay off a mistress. He was charged, but charges were ultimately dismissed. Not because he didn't pay her off (he did), but because paying hush money isn't illegal, and since the money didn't come from campaign cash, it wasn't a campaign finance violation.

One of the key legal points here is that it doesn't suffice for an expenditure to be useful for a campaign. In order to count as campaign spending, it has to be spending that you would not have spent but for the campaign. This also means that you can't charge the campaign for expenses that have other purposes even if they're useful to the campaign. So when you're out travelling you can charge meals to a campaign but you can't charge meals at home, because you would have to eat even if you weren't running.

In Edward's case, he successfully argued that there were reasons other than the campaign to want to keep the affair secret, so even though doing so benefited the campaign, it could not count as campaign spending (and thus didn't need to be declared) because it failed the "but for" test. I expect Trump will argue the same.

[Stacyhs]

Trump has repeatedly claimed there was no affair/sex and that Daniels is lying. Using wanting to 'protect his wife' (LOL!) from a scandal and not solely to benefit his campaign rings rather hollow, especially since it's been reported Melania has no illusions about her husband's infidelities.

Quote:

The first conversation he describes is about Stormy Daniels and the reports that Cohen paid her $130,000 to stay quiet about her dalliance with Donald, at the POTUS’ behest.
Cohen describes two phone calls in particular with Melania over his 12 years as Donald’s lawyer, though he says that over his tenure “Donald would repeatedly have [him] call Melania to reaffirm his innocence when he was accused of cheating on her.” The first conversation he describes is about Stormy Daniels and the reports that Cohen paid her $130,000 to stay quiet about her dalliance with Donald, at the POTUS’ behest.

“‘I know all of this,’ she said curtly,” writes Cohen. “I stopped talking, shaking my head. It was evident to me that she didn’t believe the story, or want anything further to do with the transparent lies the President was childishly attempting to tell her via me.”

While Donald sat in on that particular call, a three-way call experience we can’t imagine any of them would want to repeat, Cohen says he was often tasked with speaking to Melania alone as well. He describes denying Jill Harth’s claims that Donald had groped her to Melania — and his confidence throughout that Melania knows he is lying.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I share your disdain for RT, but even a broken clock is right on occasion.

Also, RT citing a Trump lawyer saying things that a Trump lawyer would be entirely expected to say is not exactly something that can be dismissed under the banner of Russian lies. RT may have little concern for truth, but propagandists like them are generally quite happy to jump on true things that they think that they can use to further their cause. Quoting a Trump lawyer correctly will generally be easy to use to further RT's causes.

Either way, if any one wants to read the AP's overall summation on the topic -

The New York hush-money probe of Donald Trump explained

Personally, I'm not going to hold my breath. If action is actually taken and succeeds at holding him accountable for his scumbaggery, all the better. It's still not actually clear that meaningful action will truly be taken, though, in my view.

[slyjoe]

Why wouldn't Trump plead no contest like Agnew did? Agnew wrote:

Quote:

...in his memoirs that he entered the plea bargain because he was worn out from the extended crisis, to protect his family, and because he feared he could not get a fair trial.

Remove the "worn out" part, and throw in some "witch hunt and hoax" phrases, and you have a Trump screed. Let's him define more of the narrative - "I wasn't guilty, I just didn't want to put up with the hoax."

[Stacyhs]

I would rather Trump be convicted of inciting the J6 insurrection and obstruction of justice in the documents case than the Daniels case. But a trifecta would be a dream come true.

[newyorkguy]

Matt Gaetz says the impending indictment hinges on an "untested" legal theory about campaign finance law. Untested? Tell that to Michael Cohen.

Quote:

Robert Khuzami, Attorney for the United States...announced today the guilty plea of MICHAEL COHEN to charges of tax evasion, making false statements to a federally-insured bank, and campaign finance violations. Link to announcement by the US Attorney - Southern District New York, August 31, 2018

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

Matt Gaetz says the impending indictment hinges on an "untested" legal theory about campaign finance law. Untested? Tell that to Michael Cohen.

Matt Gaetz doesn't have an original thought in his head; he just parrots whatever the Big Boys are saying.

[Lurch]

If the Stormy payment wasn't illegal in any way, should Michael Cohen not have got into hot water in the first place? My memory of details is getting hazy, but it seems to me that the fact of Cohen's having served a criminal sentence over the matter suggests some legal jeopardy for Drumpf.

Unless the system is content enough that the underlings pay penance.

[newyorkguy]

I think it's true, in the 2018 case trump escaped being indicted because of a long standing practice to NOT indict a sitting president, especially for matters not directly related to the presidency. To distract the president was thought to place the US in jeopardy.

I also think it's true, trump was considered an unindicted co-conspirator. From a 2018 news story:

Quote:

In recent court filings and in open court, President Donald Trump has been identified as “Individual-1” in a federal criminal probe...Why didn’t prosecutors simply name the president as the man who directed Cohen to make those payments?...The U.S. Attorneys' Manual (a guidebook for federal prosecutors) supplies an answer: "Ordinarily, there is no need to name a person as an unindicted co-conspirator in an indictment [or other court document] in order to fulfill any legitimate prosecutorial interest or duty." NBC News link

[Craig4]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...b86738c0&ei=29

Apparently, Trump is Jesus Christ. I wonder if the AG in New York would like to borrow my post-hole digger.

[Norman Alexander]

Trump is just stoking the outrage. So arrest him privately without notice or fanfare on Monday. Then all the wannabe-insurrectionists will be left flat-footed. Oh, sure, they will scream. But by then, Donny will be behind bars.