Criminal Charges Against Trump

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Darat

Why would that be the last thing? I'd say if you want to see USA democracy "repaired" and if Trump should be taken to trial then Biden needs to move heaven and earth to have him put on trial, the example has to be set.

I don't disagree, but I don't think Biden will see it that way. He's more like the kindly grandpa who wants everyone to get along. Also, traditionally presidents have pardoned other presidents in the US.

[Brainster]

As with almost everything else, the outcome will completely surprise you. I predict no charges will be filed against him.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Brainster

As with almost everything else, the outcome will completely surprise you. I predict no charges will be filed against him.

That wouldn't surprise me, but there's more than one jurisdiction, so I wouldn't put money on it.

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by Darat

Why would that be the last thing? I'd say if you want to see USA democracy "repaired" and if Trump should be taken to trial then Biden needs to move heaven and earth to have him put on trial, the example has to be set.

They tried to impeach him and failed. They blew that one. It’s too bad and not fair but it happened. A redo on impeachment would stink of the same politically motivated abuse of the federal government that Trump has been abusing his whole presidency. 70M voting Americans are going to see it that way. 6 SC justices might see it that way too. Then what?

There’s a chance to diffuse the situation. I didn’t vote for Biden for 4 more years of Trump dysfunction except this time around it’s “my guy”. They can simply get him with existing investigations and spend his political capital productively.

[dudalb]

Trump might be facing a whole slew of charges that have nothing to do with his presidency.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Trump might be facing a whole slew of charges that have nothing to do with his presidency.

Well, Trump has been a scofflaw his whole life, so I'd expect so. These might not flow directly from the new DOJ, but yeah, he's vulnerable now.

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by eerok

Cruel but accurate. He'd never use this as a legal defence, though, due to his ego problems.

Hmmmm, dunno.
Think of all the arrogant, narcissistic, misogynistic and criminal bastards who suddenly develop medical issues as soon as they are pulled up in front of a court. From despots to film producers. Catholic priests to journalistic activists.

All these manly ********* all suddenly end up needing oxygen and a walking frame to appear.

Although you could be right, Trump’s ego may even be stronger than his cowardice. Certainly stronger than his common sense.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by EHocking

Hmmmm, dunno.
Think of all the arrogant, narcissistic, misogynistic and criminal bastards who suddenly develop medical issues as soon as they are pulled up in front of a court. From despots to film producers. Catholic priests to journalistic activists.

All these manly ********* all suddenly end up needing oxygen and a walking frame to appear.

Although you could be right, Trump’s ego may even be stronger than his cowardice. Certainly stronger than his common sense.

I suppose that even a desire for self-preservation could trump one's ego, so to speak. You have to factor in that he's an idiot, though. It's a hard call.

[EHocking]

Originally Posted by eerok

I suppose that even a desire for self-preservation could trump one's ego, so to speak. You have to factor in that he's an idiot, though. It's a hard call.

I’ve said it before.

I look forward to visuals of Trump being bodily dragged from the WH ala Assange from an embassy.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by EHocking

I’ve said it before.

I look forward to visuals of Trump being bodily dragged from the WH ala Assange from an embassy.

Pick me! Pick me!

I'd sling that prick over my shoulders and dump him the footpath outside like last week's trash.

Which he is!

[eerok]

Originally Posted by EHocking

I’ve said it before.

I look forward to visuals of Trump being bodily dragged from the WH ala Assange from an embassy.

Well, one can dream.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by eerok

I don't disagree, but I don't think Biden will see it that way. He's more like the kindly grandpa who wants everyone to get along. Also, traditionally presidents have pardoned other presidents in the US.

"Traditionally?" Where does that come from? It's only happened once: Ford pardoned Nixon, and it probably cost him his own election.

Most presidents haven't needed to be pardoned.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by Bob001

"Traditionally?" Where does that come from? It's only happened once: Ford pardoned Nixon, and it probably cost him his own election.

Most presidents haven't needed to be pardoned.

It was Nixon I was thinking about. I should've referred to this as "precedent."

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by eerok

It was Nixon I was thinking about. I should've referred to this as "precedent."

A couple of differences though....

- as bad as Nixon was, he at least did some good... Opened relations with China, created the EPA, etc. Trump was all failure, all grift, all the time.

- Nixon resigned. Granted it was after the GOP turned on him, but at least he did reach the point where he realized enough was enough. Trump is hanging on till the end, and will probably keep hurting the US long after he leaves office

- Trump has engaged in more crimes (and arguably worse crimes) than Nixon. And many of his crimes pre-date his time in office.




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[eerok]

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

A couple of differences though....

- as bad as Nixon was, he at least did some good... Opened relations with China, created the EPA, etc. Trump was all failure, all grift, all the time.

- Nixon resigned. Granted it was after the GOP turned on him, but at least he did reach the point where he realized enough was enough. Trump is hanging on till the end, and will probably keep hurting the US long after he leaves office

- Trump has engaged in more crimes (and arguably worse crimes) than Nixon. And many of his crimes pre-date his time in office.

I absolutely agree that Tricky Dick, for all his faults, was a better man, and a better president, than Trump ... even though Nixon was the cartoon villain of my generation.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

That will probably be the case.

Not necessarily.

First of all, tax and financial crimes far too often get overlooked, and it does take time to build a case. (Remember, Manafort went years before his crimes were uncovered, and if it wasn't for his connection with Stubby Mcbonespurs, he might never have been charged.) Its possible that there are some potentially big crimes that Trump could be charged with, but have simply been overlooked. And how long did the Trump foundation function before people started seriously looking into its crimes?

And as for 'revealing the evidence', usually prosecutors want to avoid revealing details of their investigation prior to trial.

Usually the target of the investigation is not the President of the United States, who they couldn't prosecute if they wanted to, but they could tell Congress about the evidence.


However, this is all speculation on my part. If he hasn't paid the taxes he owed, "Lock! Him! Up!....Lock! Him! Up!"

(Aside: I truly hated the lock him/her up chants. An angry mob incited to hate with no actual knowledge of anything. It was about as ant-democratic as it could get.)

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Usually the target of the investigation is not the President of the United States, who they couldn't prosecute if they wanted to, but they could tell Congress about the evidence.

If you were a prosecutor going after stubby Mcbonespurs, why would you bother telling Congress? 5the republicans held the senate, so regardless of the evidence, Trump was never going to be impeached. And telling Congress might give trump an advantage in a trial... His congressional allies would tell him the evidence so he could respond better.

So better to investigate, keep details private, then prosecute when trump is out of office




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[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Trump was never going to be impeached.

We'll never know.

My opinion is that if there was blatant tax evasion, public support would have dwindled, and his Senate support would turn on him, just like it did on Nixon.

It would have to be pretty blatant though.


I know a lot of people think Trump's various alleged crimes were already pretty blatant, but I don't see it that way.

Anyway, all speculation.

Although, I was talking with my sister the other night about what kind of stunts Trump could pull as a lame duck, and we agreed he was the sort of person who might try something so far out of line in an attempt to get the election overturned that they would have to pull some sort of emergency impeachment. Fantasy? Almost certainly, but this is Trump we're talking about.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

We'll never know.

My opinion is that if there was blatant tax evasion, public support would have dwindled, and his Senate support would turn on him, just like it did on Nixon.

It would have to be pretty blatant though.


I know a lot of people think Trump's various alleged crimes were already pretty blatant, but I don't see it that way.

Anyway, all speculation.

Although, I was talking with my sister the other night about what kind of stunts Trump could pull as a lame duck, and we agreed he was the sort of person who might try something so far out of line in an attempt to get the election overturned that they would have to pull some sort of emergency impeachment. Fantasy? Almost certainly, but this is Trump we're talking about.

Or invoke the 25th Amendment, on the basis that it is so-far out of line, the only reasonable expanation would be because the President must have had a mental breakdown and be incapable of carrying out the duties of POTUS... I'm sure they would have no trouble finding a doctor to certify that!

Of course, many of us know he has been incapable of carrying out the duties of POTUS since the day he was elected.

[The Great Zaganza]

Cheating at Golf - have his Golf Cart driving license revoked.

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

We'll never know.



My opinion is that if there was blatant tax evasion, public support would have dwindled, and his Senate support would turn on him, just like it did on Nixon.

.

The public already got a peak at Trump's tax info (via the NYT article), with hints of tax fraud. His approval ratings didn't fall below 40%. This is in addition to all his other fraud... Trump U. And his foundation... Both of which went to court (and trump lost both cases), and still he kept an approval rating of ~40%. And without his base turning on him, the senate won't either.

MAGAchuds are just too idiotic to change their opinion over a little thing like criminal activities. Now if trump wore a tan suit...


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[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

I think this is all things Biden will avoid doing. Letting the ongoing financial investigations play out is a better call for him. They can result in prison time and dismantling of the Trump empire without Biden having to be accused of any wrong doing by virtue of not being involved since these were initiated before he became president.

The problem with that is, the moment anyone brings any charges against Trump, he will instantly make those accusations against Biden anyway, and all his supporters will believe him.

Dave

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

The problem with that is, the moment anyone brings any charges against Trump, he will instantly make those accusations against Biden anyway, and all his supporters will believe him.



Dave

Yeah but here is the thing... Trump will still accuse Biden if crimes, even if Trump isn't charged with anything.

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[The Atheist]

We have a contender: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bill-...b64c88d400b2a5

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

We have a contender: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bill-...b64c88d400b2a5

nothingburger.

Trump and cohorts have been declared to be in violation of the Hatch Act countless times.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I wonder if an impeachment counts as trial for Double Jeopardy purposes.

It doesn't:

Quote:

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

Article 1 Section 3 of the Constitution

[Darat]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

They tried to impeach him and failed. They blew that one. It’s too bad and not fair but it happened. A redo on impeachment would stink of the same politically motivated abuse of the federal government that Trump has been abusing his whole presidency. 70M voting Americans are going to see it that way. 6 SC justices might see it that way too. Then what?



There’s a chance to diffuse the situation. I didn’t vote for Biden for 4 more years of Trump dysfunction except this time around it’s “my guy”. They can simply get him with existing investigations and spend his political capital productively.

Totally disagree, that attitude is the reason that people like Trump I. e. the "elite" get away with what they do time and time again. You can only have a fair and equitable society when every one faces the same consequences.

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by Darat

Totally disagree, that attitude is the reason that people like Trump I. e. the "elite" get away with what they do time and time again. You can only have a fair and equitable society when every one faces the same consequences.

I’ve been wrong before, many times. I’d be open to hearing out how that would work. I can’t see a good ending to Biden spending his first term rehashing impeachment with a 6-3 conservative SC.

[Garrison]

I think he may avoid charges if those who have been suggesting there is a clear deterioration in Trump's mental faculties over the last few months turn out to be correct.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

I’ve been wrong before, many times. I’d be open to hearing out how that would work. I can’t see a good ending to Biden spending his first term rehashing impeachment with a 6-3 conservative SC.

How on earth is seeing someone (if there are grounds of course) prosecuted for crimes is in any way equivalent to the "4 years of dysfunction" of the Trump presidential term?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Garrison

I think he may avoid charges if those who have been suggesting there is a clear deterioration in Trump's mental faculties over the last few months turn out to be correct.

"last few months"? You mean the last 4 years?

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by Darat

How on earth is seeing someone (if there are grounds of course) prosecuted for crimes is in any way equivalent to the "4 years of dysfunction" of the Trump presidential term?

First of all, he is being investigated and, if there are grounds, prosecuted for crimes right now. My position is to continue to do that and have Biden focus on being the president. What I don’t want Biden to do is to rehash the impeachment. That’s a path to a dysfunctional government where Trump is the center of the universe for another 4 years and Biden is fighting ghosts of a presidency he defeated at the polls. That’s what I don’t want.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

First of all, he is being investigated and, if there are grounds, prosecuted for crimes right now. My position is to continue to do that and have Biden focus on being the president. What I don’t want Biden to do is to rehash the impeachment. That’s a path to a dysfunctional government where Trump is the center of the universe for another 4 years and Biden is fighting ghosts of a presidency he defeated at the polls. That’s what I don’t want.

Yep. There is nothing to be gained by retrying an impeachment that has already failed. Even if it were to succeed, the only penalty would be removal from office which would only matter if Trump got re-elected (and he only has two chances at that - buckleys and none).

Whether there are grounds to indict Trump would be up to the appropriate authorities and not politicians.

[alfaniner]

I'm hoping that Biden doesn't play nice and say "Let's all just forget it and move on" (even though he would have no input or affect on the State indictments). If he won't insist on The PDJT being charged with everything possible, I'd rather he not say anything about it and just let due process take its course.

[eerok]

Originally Posted by alfaniner

I'm hoping that Biden doesn't play nice and say "Let's all just forget it and move on" (even though he would have no input or affect on the State indictments). If he won't insist on The PDJT being charged with everything possible, I'd rather he not say anything about it and just let due process take its course.

It's very possible that Biden will pardon Trump IMO.

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

We have a contender: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bill-...b64c88d400b2a5

According to the Wikipedia page, the hatch act does not apply to the president and vice president.

Unless prosecutors make it a charge of conspiracy (ie trying to get others in the administration to violate the act) I think Stubby Mcbonespurs is safe from prosecution from it.

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[Susheel]

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

According to the Wikipedia page, the hatch act does not apply to the president and vice president.

Unless prosecutors make it a charge of conspiracy (ie trying to get others in the administration to violate the act) I think Stubby Mcbonespurs is safe from prosecution from it.

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Interesting. Does Lindsey Graham's solicitation for election donations during a senate hearing fall under its purview?

[Segnosaur]

Originally Posted by Susheel

Interesting. Does Lindsey Graham's solicitation for election donations during a senate hearing fall under its purview?

I am not sure if it is part of the hatch act (it might only apply to certain employees and administration members) or some other law, but it is still illegal.

ETA: upon more research, it does look like it was the hatch act.

https://www.newsweek.com/lindsey-gra...ilding-1539300

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[slyjoe]

Question - at one point I thought Mueller returned a sealed indictment. I though there was speculation it was directed at Trump, but wouldn't be unsealed/filed until he was out of office. Whatever happened there?

[Mike!]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Cheating at Golf - have his Golf Cart driving license revoked.

This brings up something I've been wondering about for a few days. Has anyone ever interviewed anybody who beat Trump playing golf, and how he took the loss? Was he sportsman like, or a mean petty excuse type loser? I know what we think, but I was looking for real world examples.