[Continuation] The behaviour of US police officers - part 2 - Page 9

pgwenthold · 28th June 2021, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Fifth Circuit Grants Qualified Immunity To Officers Who Tased Man Soaked in Gasoline, Knowing it Would Light Him on Fire

https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...-their-co.html

Oh come on, he was trying to kill himself anyway. They were just trying to help him out.

Babbylonian · 28th June 2021, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Fifth Circuit Grants Qualified Immunity To Officers Who Tased Man Soaked in Gasoline, Knowing it Would Light Him on Fire

https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...-their-co.html

Welcome to why people shouldn't get too excited about the Chauvin verdict. For every appropriate guilty verdict and sentence there are a dozen incidents wherein obviously criminal cops suffer no consequences worse than forced paid vacation.

ponderingturtle · 28th June 2021, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Fifth Circuit Grants Qualified Immunity To Officers Who Tased Man Soaked in Gasoline, Knowing it Would Light Him on Fire

https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...-their-co.html

Clearly the only way to stop him from setting himself on fire was to set him on fire. Like to see him set himself on fire when he is already on fire!

gnome · 28th June 2021, 01:30 PM

Interestingly, the author of that article concludes that the Supreme Court is trending towards being stricter on qualified immunity claims and that this 5th Circuit decision is in opposition to that momentum.

https://texaslawreview.org/the-end-o...fied-immunity/

This was an observation about the current SCOTUS, too... so this is including Barrett and Kavanagh.

SuburbanTurkey · 28th June 2021, 01:43 PM

Off-duty, out of uniform cop chases down car full of teenagers, brandishes gun, shoots one, chases some more, and makes no attempt to arrest them nor provide any aid to the driver he shot.

Quote:

In pain and bleeding, the teenagers drove a short distance away, pulled over, and got out of their car, Howe said. They saw Dolan drive up in his white pickup truck and get out, too. That time, Howe said, Dolan did not approach them or make any attempt to take any of the teens into custody. He did not acknowledge that the driver had been injured.

“It’s so clear he wasn’t stopping what he thought was a crime. He would have approached the person that he shot ... and either take them into custody and call an ambulance,” Howe said. “I’ve been a lawyer for 40 years. This is an intensely questionable story.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/06/...oots-teenager/

Officer remains on leave and has not been charged with any crime, nor have any of the three teens been charged with any crime that might explain why this maniac chased them down and opened fire.

JoeMorgue · 28th June 2021, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

Interestingly, the author of that article concludes that the Supreme Court is trending towards being stricter on qualified immunity claims and that this 5th Circuit decision is in opposition to that momentum.

https://texaslawreview.org/the-end-o...fied-immunity/

This was an observation about the current SCOTUS, too... so this is including Barrett and Kavanagh.

My vague (yes high probability of being naïve, I know, let me have SOME hope) hope is that that is the plan and it will backfire. Force the issue up to the Supreme Court hoping that Trump's appointee's will rubberstamp a stereotypical conservative "Cops are good, apple pie is good, praise Jesus" ruling and... they won't.

SCOTUS actually ending qualified immunity as a concept is one of those wins even SuburbanTurkey will have to stop screeching "All is lost! All is lost!" over for at least a few seconds.

I mean it's not gonna happen, but it's a nice thought.

SuburbanTurkey · 28th June 2021, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

My vague (yes high probability of being naïve, I know, let me have SOME hope) hope is that that is the plan and it will backfire. Force the issue up to the Supreme Court hoping that Trump's appointee's will rubberstamp a stereotypical conservative "Cops are good, apple pie is good, praise Jesus" ruling and... they won't.

SCOTUS actually ending qualified immunity as a concept is one of those wins even SuburbanTurkey will have to stop screeching "All is lost! All is lost!" over for at least a few seconds.

I mean it's not gonna happen, but it's a nice thought.

Change of qualified immunity would indeed be a huge step. It should be the courts that kill this thing. SCOTUS invented qualified immunity out of whole cloth in 1967, so it's only appropriate that they clean up their mess:

https://theappeal.org/the-lab/explai...ity-explained/

It should be said that civil lawsuits are really thin gruel when it comes to dealing with police violence. It would still be a huge double standard if cops can commit acts of criminal violence and would only be looking at civil, not criminal, sanctions. The real "just" solution would be criminal prosecution for examples of police brutality or other civil rights violations, but that is a huge ask where DAs have close relationships with the police and bootlicker politics reign supreme. There's some movement on that front, with the DOJ making a big show of investigating a few high profile cases of police brutality, but it's hard to imagine this standard will apply to more routine, low-profile examples of police criminal violence.

At least with civil lawsuits, the adversarial system of the court and the potential for big payoffs means there's some impetus for someone to actually take up a civil rights violation case, where local DAs only see negatives and political risk.

Kestrel · 28th June 2021, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Good Samaritan who likely stopped a mass shooting was shot dead by responding cops.

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...ing-to-sources

Surveillance video has been released that shows the suspect exiting his truck with a shotgun, shooting the officer and returning to his truck to grab an AR-15.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

The police are telling reporters what happened next. The Samaritan shot the suspect, picked up the AR-15 and was then shot by another officer. They have not explained what evidence backs up that sequence of events.

ponderingturtle · 29th June 2021, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Surveillance video has been released that shows the suspect exiting his truck with a shotgun, shooting the officer and returning to his truck to grab an AR-15.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

The police are telling reporters what happened next. The Samaritan shot the suspect, picked up the AR-15 and was then shot by another officer. They have not explained what evidence backs up that sequence of events.

Going by how these things go they probably have video of him doing something entirely different. But who are you going to believe the police or your lying eyes?

Planigale · 29th June 2021, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Change of qualified immunity would indeed be a huge step. It should be the courts that kill this thing. SCOTUS invented qualified immunity out of whole cloth in 1967, so it's only appropriate that they clean up their mess:

https://theappeal.org/the-lab/explai...ity-explained/

It should be said that civil lawsuits are really thin gruel when it comes to dealing with police violence. It would still be a huge double standard if cops can commit acts of criminal violence and would only be looking at civil, not criminal, sanctions. The real "just" solution would be criminal prosecution for examples of police brutality or other civil rights violations, but that is a huge ask where DAs have close relationships with the police and bootlicker politics reign supreme. There's some movement on that front, with the DOJ making a big show of investigating a few high profile cases of police brutality, but it's hard to imagine this standard will apply to more routine, low-profile examples of police criminal violence.

At least with civil lawsuits, the adversarial system of the court and the potential for big payoffs means there's some impetus for someone to actually take up a civil rights violation case, where local DAs only see negatives and political risk.

In many situations this should include criminal prosecution of the police service not just the grunt on the ground. Command responsibility. If The officers commanding were at risk of conviction for the actions of those under their command standards would be enforced / improved. Continuing to prosecute individual officers will have less impact than prosecuting the Sheriff / police chief, etc. At present it easier to keep dubious people in post and not stand up to the
union. If keeping someone in post who was not suited to be a police officer meant those in charge might have to take responsibility for subsequent happenings I think there would be more steel in dealing with police unions.

SuburbanTurkey · 29th June 2021, 07:15 AM

Cop shot and killed a 17 year old boy that was armed with a blue jug. Witness at the scene says cop made no commands or warning, just opened fire striking the boy in the neck.

Quote:

During a traffic stop last week, an Arkansas sheriff’s deputy shot and killed a teenage boy who was only armed with a neon-blue jug of antifreeze, family members told VICE News.

Lonoke County Sheriff’s Office Sgt. Michael Davis stopped 17-year-old Hunter Brittain near Cabot, Arkansas, at about 3 a.m. last Wednesday, and it’s still unclear why. Hunter had been having trouble with his truck when Davis pulled in behind him outside of a local auto repair shop and flashed his emergency lights, according to the account of a 16-year-old riding with Hunter at the time. When Hunter went to put the antifreeze behind his back tire so his vehicle wouldn’t roll into the officer’s, Davis allegedly fired at him.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/5db5...icenewstwitter

Quote:

“In potentially dangerous situations, deputies are often forced to make split-second decisions,” Staley said. “Second-guessing those decisions, especially when the facts are still unclear, is dangerous and unfair.”

Some might argue that getting shot dead for trying to chock the tires on your broken truck is dangerous and unfair, but opinions differ.

JoeMorgue · 29th June 2021, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Cop shot and killed a 17 year old boy that was armed with a blue jug.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/5db5...icenewstwitter

All this one was a white rural aspiring NASCAR driver in a pickup, so the apologist can't whine about the media having a "narrative" this time.

Although they probably still will.

erlando · 29th June 2021, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Cop shot and killed a 17 year old boy that was armed with a blue jug. Witness at the scene says cop made no commands or warning, just opened fire striking the boy in the neck.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/5db5...icenewstwitter

Some might argue that getting shot dead for trying to chock the tires on your broken truck is dangerous and unfair, but opinions differ.

I'd like to ask Warp12's opinion on what actions this "perp" took to warrant the officer to use deadly force.

Armitage72 · 29th June 2021, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

I'd like to ask Warp12's opinion on what actions this "perp" took to warrant the officer to use deadly force.

It could have been a Molotov Cocktail. Imagine how much damage one that size could do.
A giant, bright blue, unlit Molotov Cocktail.

JoeMorgue · 29th June 2021, 11:24 AM

I wonder a certain someone will be along to question how fast this kid can run for 40 pages and then deny they ever did it?

Somehow I doubt it.

Thermal · 30th June 2021, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I wonder a certain someone will be along to question how fast this kid can run for 40 pages and then deny they ever did it?

Somehow I doubt it.

Lying, check. Eyelash fluttering, check. Nice to see you've checked in early.

So this kid is doing transmission work at 3AM ( story says he wasn't broken down, but was working through the night doing tranny repairs, so he could drive to a construction site to work at 6 AM. I'm sure he could work safely on no sleep and working on a truck through the night, rather than make other arrangements to get to work. Also, the truck was apparently rolling backwards into the cop So I guess his parking brake didn't work either.

The truck was apparently rolling backwards towards the cop car, with the cop in it (since the cop stopped him, the trans was functioning up until said stop). So the kid was likely moving fast with the...antifreeze jug?...to chock the tires and avoid rolling into the cruiser. So the cop looks up at 3AM to see a truck backing up towards him and a kid unexpectedly jumping out of the vehicle and heading towards him fast, with something large in his hand. Yeah, the cop had every reason to be concerned that something weird was going on and it was possibly an attack against him.

But that's not good enough to shoot to the neck, or shoot at all. This cop should never breathe free air again. As with Guyger, the McMicheals and all the rest: why isn't this cop in lockup for murder right ******* now? You or I would be.

mgidm86 · 30th June 2021, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Lying, check. Eyelash fluttering, check. Nice to see you've checked in early.

So this kid is doing transmission work at 3AM ( story says he wasn't broken down, but was working through the night doing tranny repairs, so he could drive to a construction site to work at 6 AM. I'm sure he could work safely on no sleep and working on a truck through the night, rather than make other arrangements to get to work. Also, the truck was apparently rolling backwards into the cop So I guess his parking brake didn't work either.

The truck was apparently rolling backwards towards the cop car, with the cop in it (since the cop stopped him, the trans was functioning up until said stop). So the kid was likely moving fast with the...antifreeze jug?...to chock the tires and avoid rolling into the cruiser. So the cop looks up at 3AM to see a truck backing up towards him and a kid unexpectedly jumping out of the vehicle and heading towards him fast, with something large in his hand. Yeah, the cop had every reason to be concerned that something weird was going on and it was possibly an attack against him.

But that's not good enough to shoot to the neck, or shoot at all. This cop should never breathe free air again. As with Guyger, the McMicheals and all the rest: why isn't this cop in lockup for murder right ******* now? You or I would be.

Story seems to add up so far:

Quote:

Scott Hundley owns Hundley Construction and he said that Brittain worked for him on and off for the past few years. Hundley said he talked to Hunter around 7 p.m. the night before.

“I was checking with him on his truck,” Hundley said. “[He was] sending me pictures of his truck at the shop. He says he's been working on this truck but he’s trying to make it.”

Hundley said Hunter worked harder for him than many adults. Hundley showed KATV the Facebook messages between the two where Hunter tells his boss he’ll ask for a ride from another co-worker if he’s unable to get his truck up and running.

Quote:

There’s only one other person who was there that morning. Jordan King, 16, spoke to KATV off camera. He said he and Brittain had worked through the night to change the transmission on his truck so he could work that morning and drove about a mile down the road to Mahoney's Body Shop to make the repairs. He said their families are friends with the owner.

https://katv.com/news/local/teen-wit...ares-his-story

Sounds like a 17 year old kid trying to get to work on time to me. According to this he had a good work ethic. Some young people do.

ETA:

Let's try this version:

Quote:

So the cop looks up at 3AM to see a truck slowly rolling up towards him and a kid getting out of the vehicle and heading towards the car, with something large in his hand.

I can think of twenty other possibilities of why someone would do this, the least common being "guy was about to shoot cop"

- guy is drunk or high
- guy has mental issues
- guy is dumb
- guy doesn't expect cops to shoot people carrying objects that don't look like guns.

I would think that all of these happen much more frequently then

- guy gets out to shoot cop

Thermal · 30th June 2021, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Story seems to add up so far:

https://katv.com/news/local/teen-wit...ares-his-story

Sounds like a 17 year old kid trying to get to work on time to me. According to this he had a good work ethic. Some young people do.

ETA:

Let's try this version:

I can think of twenty other possibilities of why someone would do this, the least common being "guy was about to shoot cop"

- guy is drunk or high
- guy has mental issues
- guy is dumb
- guy doesn't expect cops to shoot people carrying objects that don't look like guns.

I would think that all of these happen much more frequently then

- guy gets out to shoot cop

Agreed. Did you make it to the end of the post you are responding to?

Re: the driver. He drives in the middle of the night on a bad transmission (?) to switch it out. He's on that till 3AM. With some other 16 yr old in the truck. During his 1 mile ride home (what, 2 or three minutes of driving?), he does something to attract the attention of the Sheriff. The Deputy perhaps wants to talk about curfews and minor drivers with other children in the car and no adult (my states laws, anyway). Maybe something about driving a highly unsafe vehicle.

So the truck starts rolling backwards towards the cop. The driver couldn't hit the brakes, I assume. Or the parking brake, either. He feels he has to...shove a jug of antifreeze to chock the tire? You ever try that? I don't think that would work out.

What I'm saying is this story has a lot of highly implausible in it. I'm guessing it's been edited to make the driver look innocent and hard-working. But as I said before, no reason to shoot. The cop should be in a cell right now like you or I would.

SuburbanTurkey · 30th June 2021, 05:09 PM

Double post, deleted.

SuburbanTurkey · 30th June 2021, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Agreed. Did you make it to the end of the post you are responding to?

Re: the driver. He drives in the middle of the night on a bad transmission (?) to switch it out. He's on that till 3AM. With some other 16 yr old in the truck. During his 1 mile ride home (what, 2 or three minutes of driving?), he does something to attract the attention of the Sheriff. The Deputy perhaps wants to talk about curfews and minor drivers with other children in the car and no adult (my states laws, anyway). Maybe something about driving a highly unsafe vehicle.

So the truck starts rolling backwards towards the cop. The driver couldn't hit the brakes, I assume. Or the parking brake, either. He feels he has to...shove a jug of antifreeze to chock the tire? You ever try that? I don't think that would work out.

What I'm saying is this story has a lot of highly implausible in it. I'm guessing it's been edited to make the driver look innocent and hard-working. But as I said before, no reason to shoot. The cop should be in a cell right now like you or I would.

What other explanation do you propose that is more plausible? Seems like you're casting a lot of doubt based on your personal incredulity but not offering any other explanation that you find less fanciful.

I have a lot of sympathy for this kid. I spent a lot of time in my youth trying to keep junkers running. For a while I had to park my motorcycle at the top of the hill to bump start it because the charging system didn't work, and I spent more hours than I care to count tinkering in parking lots and auto shops. No cop murdered me for the crime of being too poor for a reliable vehicle, so I guess I have no complaints.

Thermal · 30th June 2021, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

What other explanation do you propose that is more plausible? Seems like you're casting a lot of doubt based on your personal incredulity but not offering any other explanation that you find less fanciful.

I have a lot of sympathy for this kid. I spent a lot of time in my youth trying to keep junkers running. For a while I had to park my motorcycle at the top of the hill to bump start it because the charging system didn't work, and I spent more hours than I care to count tinkering in parking lots and auto shops. No cop murdered me for the crime of being too poor for a reliable vehicle, so I guess I have no complaints.

As did I. Still do, to some degree. What I am noting is that there are an awful.lot of screwey details that make for an eye squint, here.

As a former motorhead trying to nurse a little more power out of the 289 in my 68 Mustang: would you try to chock a truck with a plastic antifreeze jug? That strains credibility. You have someone else's child out with you at 3AM swapping trannys? What is that, a dozen bolts on the bell housing, yoke in the back and the linkage with a 150 lb trans, and the pan and screen? Not an all-nighter for two guys with access to a shop.

I'm thinking this sounds more like a couple guys getting fired up after fixing the truck, which is maybe why they got pulled over during the one mile return trip. We have nothing but the 16 year olds version, remember. When you were 16, did you sugar coat your cover stories or leave out the bad stuff?

I can't think of a reason why the cop would justifiably fire. But im not about to swallow this wholesome tale of innocence hook line and sinker either. Not just yet. I'd like to see the body cams or something else first. Unreasonable?

SuburbanTurkey · 1st July 2021, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

As did I. Still do, to some degree. What I am noting is that there are an awful.lot of screwey details that make for an eye squint, here.

As a former motorhead trying to nurse a little more power out of the 289 in my 68 Mustang: would you try to chock a truck with a plastic antifreeze jug? That strains credibility. You have someone else's child out with you at 3AM swapping trannys? What is that, a dozen bolts on the bell housing, yoke in the back and the linkage with a 150 lb trans, and the pan and screen? Not an all-nighter for two guys with access to a shop.

I'm thinking this sounds more like a couple guys getting fired up after fixing the truck, which is maybe why they got pulled over during the one mile return trip. We have nothing but the 16 year olds version, remember. When you were 16, did you sugar coat your cover stories or leave out the bad stuff?

I can't think of a reason why the cop would justifiably fire. But im not about to swallow this wholesome tale of innocence hook line and sinker either. Not just yet. I'd like to see the body cams or something else first. Unreasonable?

Yeah this 17 year old is going to lose his mechanic certification doing such shoddy transmission work.

SuburbanTurkey · 1st July 2021, 04:58 AM

LASD deputy describing how she wears a breathable mesh facemask when at work or visiting the hospital, encouraging anti-mask BS. Shares a coupon code for micro-mesh masks that look like normal facemasks, but are breathable and allow you to spew plague particles unrestricted.

https://twitter.com/VPS_Reports/stat...74436129771524

Thermal · 1st July 2021, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Yeah this 17 year old is going to lose his mechanic certification doing such shoddy transmission work.

...?

SuburbanTurkey · 1st July 2021, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

...?

I'm just baffled by your comment that suggests it's routine for 17 year olds to be able to effortlessly and correctly perform automatic transmission repairs.

It's kinda known to be a tricky operation, especially if you're trying to save bucks by rebuilding a broken transmission rather than paying thousands of dollars for a drop in replacement.

There's nothing at all suspicious about the story told by the surviving teen. They botched a transmission repair and the parking gear didnt work.

Thermal · 1st July 2021, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I'm just baffled by your comment that suggests it's routine for 17 year olds to be able to effortlessly and correctly perform automatic transmission repairs.

It's kinda known to be a tricky operation, especially if you're trying to save bucks by rebuilding a broken transmission rather than paying thousands of dollars for a drop in replacement.

The story says specifically that he was replacing the trans, not rebuilding it. I've done a swap out as a (later) teen with nothing more than a Chiltons manual as a guide, and no access to a shop. And I did it with a junkyard replacement. Poor kids don't buy new, sailor.

Quote:

There's nothing at all suspicious about the story told by the surviving teen. They botched a transmission repair and the parking gear didnt work.

As I said, it's more that every detail is a little screwy, not that it is implausible. Sounds a lot like saying. "Oh I was on the road at 3AM with somebody else's kid in a wildly unsafe truck (no brakes, no parking brake, bad tranny at a minimum) because we totally fell asleep at the movies. Really, we weren't partying or anything".

As you should know by now, I won't conclude anything from one side of a story, especially a suspiciously wholesome one. Color me untrusting of pure objectivity from one of the actors.

Still, because it needs to be said around here, I can think of no reason to fire. But I'd like to hear what the deputy has to say first. You find that unimportant for drawing even the most tentative of conclusions?

SuburbanTurkey · 1st July 2021, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

The story says specifically that he was replacing the trans, not rebuilding it. I've done a swap out as a (later) teen with nothing more than a Chiltons manual as a guide, and no access to a shop. And I did it with a junkyard replacement. Poor kids don't buy new, sailor.

As I said, it's more that every detail is a little screwy, not that it is implausible. Sounds a lot like saying. "Oh I was on the road at 3AM with somebody else's kid in a wildly unsafe truck (no brakes, no parking brake, bad tranny at a minimum) because we totally fell asleep at the movies. Really, we weren't partying or anything".

As you should know by now, I won't conclude anything from one side of a story, especially a suspiciously wholesome one. Color me untrusting of pure objectivity from one of the actors.

Still, because it needs to be said around here, I can think of no reason to fire. But I'd like to hear what the deputy has to say first. You find that unimportant for drawing even the most tentative of conclusions?

"someone else's child" is an odd way of saying a teenager and his similar aged friend. I suppose this is a useful verbiage to make it seem unusual that a couple teenagers might hang out together.

Thermal · 1st July 2021, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

"someone else's child" is an odd way of saying a teenager and his similar aged friend. I suppose this is a useful verbiage to make it seem unusual that a couple teenagers might hang out together.

"Child" is just underscoring the obvious peripheral problems. You know how the law views minors driving around together at 3AM. In my State, that's a handful of fairly serious offenses, that a new driver would be fully aware of, having recently studied for his written driver's test.

Just think about the known facts: kids driving unsupervised in the middle of the freaking night in a truck evidently falling apart. The actual facts are breaking multiple laws. Is it so odd to think they were maybe not being quite as wholesome as the 16 yr old claims?

And again: are you coming to even tentative conclusions based on one side of the story? If you were a juror, would you pronounce a verdict based on having heard only one side's opening arguments?

SuburbanTurkey · 1st July 2021, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

"Child" is just underscoring the obvious peripheral problems. You know how the law views minors driving around together at 3AM. In my State, that's a handful of fairly serious offenses, that a new driver would be fully aware of, having recently studied for his written driver's test.

Just think about the known facts: kids driving unsupervised in the middle of the freaking night in a truck evidently falling apart. The actual facts are breaking multiple laws. Is it so odd to think they were maybe not being quite as wholesome as the 16 yr old claims?

And again: are you coming to even tentative conclusions based on one side of the story? If you were a juror, would you pronounce a verdict based on having heard only one side's opening arguments?

The known facts are the only witness besides the killer claims that nothing unusual was occurring, and the killer has clammed up has offered no reasonable explanation for shooting an unarmed person.

But yeah, we should probably ask how fast they could both run a mile first.

Thermal · 1st July 2021, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

The known facts are the only witness besides the killer claims that nothing unusual was occurring, and the killer has clammed up has offered no reasonable explanation for shooting an unarmed person.

But yeah, we should probably ask how fast they could both run a mile first.

Really? A pair of minors driving at 3AM with no adult in an apparently dramatically unsafe ride is "nothing unusual"?

They also had the survivor cuffed for hours. That doesn't suggest that there might be a little more to this story than he chose to disclose?

And yet again: I'm not saying he's lying, or that Brittain wasn't murdered (I think he likely was). I'm saying theres no need to be so gullible just because you like the way that narrative is served up. His side, her side, and the truth. I like the truth. Others like his side only.

SuburbanTurkey · 1st July 2021, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Really? A pair of minors driving at 3AM with no adult in an apparently dramatically unsafe ride is "nothing unusual"?

They also had the survivor cuffed for hours. That doesn't suggest that there might be a little more to this story than he chose to disclose?

And yet again: I'm not saying he's lying, or that Brittain wasn't murdered (I think he likely was). I'm saying theres no need to be so gullible just because you like the way that narrative is served up. His side, her side, and the truth. I like the truth. Others like his side only.

Anytime the cops wrongfully murder someone they pretty much always arrest everyone on the scene.

There's a pretty handy rule of thumb when it comes to police killings. The more justified the shooting is, the faster the police release details and any available video footage that might exonerate them. Seeing as they have yet to do so, smart betters say this smells like another trigger happy cop committing murder.

So far we have an eyewitness that describes the two working on the truck. We have the kid's boss saying that they talked on the phone that night saying he was trying to get the truck running, and the claim that they were pulled over after leaving an auto shop.

But sure, I suppose it's reasonable to wildly speculate and treat those wild speculations as more likely than what all available evidence strongly indicates.

ponderingturtle · 1st July 2021, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

They also had the survivor cuffed for hours. That doesn't suggest that there might be a little more to this story than he chose to disclose?

Just like the demented old lady who the cops broker her arm. She was also hilariously handcuffed for hours.

Captain_Swoop · 1st July 2021, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

They also had the survivor cuffed for hours. That doesn't suggest that there might be a little more to this story than he chose to disclose?

Maybe they were told they can't kneel on the suspects heads so they have to cuff them instead.

Thermal · 1st July 2021, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Anytime the cops wrongfully murder someone they pretty much always arrest everyone on the scene.

There's a pretty handy rule of thumb when it comes to police killings. The more justified the shooting is, the faster the police release details and any available video footage that might exonerate them. Seeing as they have yet to do so, smart betters say this smells like another trigger happy cop committing murder.

So far we have an eyewitness that describes the two working on the truck. We have the kid's boss saying that they talked on the phone that night saying he was trying to get the truck running, and the claim that they were pulled over after leaving an auto shop.

But sure, I suppose it's reasonable to wildly speculate and treat those wild speculations as more likely than what all available evidence strongly indicates.

You're strawmanning pretty hard there, man. I don't treat anything as more likely except that the objective truth will likely be different from the recounting of a 16 yr old actor in the story.

SuburbanTurkey · 1st July 2021, 10:15 AM

What the cops say happened:

Originally Posted by PPB

A crowd has formed at the officer involved shooting scene. Some participants have thrown objects and tried to enter the closed area. An officer’s baton was grabbed by someone and when another officer intervened, the officer was sprayed with a chemical.

https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/s...03481962655744

Video of what actually happened.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1408313568299130880

bluesjnr · 1st July 2021, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

What the cops say happened:

https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/s...03481962655744

Video of what actually happened.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1408313568299130880

As hard as I try I can't match anything up with the actual incident as it unfolded in the 2nd link. What am I missing?

SuburbanTurkey · 1st July 2021, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

As hard as I try I can't match anything up with the actual incident as it unfolded in the 2nd link. What am I missing?

Twitter thread links are weird. It should be the last video in the thread that corresponds with the PPB version of events.

Quote:

A bystander caught the moment PPB assaulted and maced peaceful protesters on scene - this video is very intense, warning.

https://twitter.com/gravemorgan/stat...13568299130880

The video shows a protestor approach the riot line and yell at a cop and point their finger. The cops apparently doesn't like being talked to this way, takes a couple swats at the person's pointed finger, then starts charging with his nightstick. All the fellow riot cops charge in and start spraying pepperspray everywhere. If any cop was sprayed, it was friendly fire.

The video is unambiguous in showing that the cops initiated the violence, but you wouldn't get that impression from how the police describe events.

Captain_Swoop · 1st July 2021, 11:33 AM

It surprises me that the cops still seem unaware that lots of people carry video cameras with a direct link to the internet these days.

They still seem to think they can make stuff up when they know it will be filmed and that people will swallow it.

Belz... · 1st July 2021, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

It surprises me that the cops still seem unaware that lots of people carry video cameras with a direct link to the internet these days.

They know. They don't care because they're so well protected. They know their supporters will gobble up the story without checking because that's what the post-fact world has brought.

quadraginta · 1st July 2021, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

It surprises me that the cops still seem unaware that lots of people carry video cameras with a direct link to the internet these days.

Or they don't care. The Chauvin conviction was an exception to the normal course of events. Cops not even being charged, much less convicted. No matter how stark or compelling the evidence against them may be.

Quote:

They still seem to think they can make stuff up when they know it will be filmed and that people will swallow it.

They figure they can get away with it.

And most of the time they will be right.

28th June 2021, 11:02 AM	#321
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 21,035	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Fifth Circuit Grants Qualified Immunity To Officers Who Tased Man Soaked in Gasoline, Knowing it Would Light Him on Fire https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...-their-co.html Oh come on, he was trying to kill himself anyway. They were just trying to help him out.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

28th June 2021, 11:39 AM	#323
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,956	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Fifth Circuit Grants Qualified Immunity To Officers Who Tased Man Soaked in Gasoline, Knowing it Would Light Him on Fire https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...-their-co.html Clearly the only way to stop him from setting himself on fire was to set him on fire. Like to see him set himself on fire when he is already on fire!
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

28th June 2021, 01:30 PM	#324
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,572	Interestingly, the author of that article concludes that the Supreme Court is trending towards being stricter on qualified immunity claims and that this 5th Circuit decision is in opposition to that momentum. https://texaslawreview.org/the-end-o...fied-immunity/ This was an observation about the current SCOTUS, too... so this is including Barrett and Kavanagh.
	__________________ Last edited by gnome; 28th June 2021 at 01:39 PM.

28th June 2021, 01:43 PM	#325
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Off-duty, out of uniform cop chases down car full of teenagers, brandishes gun, shoots one, chases some more, and makes no attempt to arrest them nor provide any aid to the driver he shot. Quote: In pain and bleeding, the teenagers drove a short distance away, pulled over, and got out of their car, Howe said. They saw Dolan drive up in his white pickup truck and get out, too. That time, Howe said, Dolan did not approach them or make any attempt to take any of the teens into custody. He did not acknowledge that the driver had been injured. “It’s so clear he wasn’t stopping what he thought was a crime. He would have approached the person that he shot ... and either take them into custody and call an ambulance,” Howe said. “I’ve been a lawyer for 40 years. This is an intensely questionable story.” https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/06/...oots-teenager/ Officer remains on leave and has not been charged with any crime, nor have any of the three teens been charged with any crime that might explain why this maniac chased them down and opened fire.
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 28th June 2021 at 01:52 PM.

28th June 2021, 01:49 PM	#326
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	Originally Posted by gnome Interestingly, the author of that article concludes that the Supreme Court is trending towards being stricter on qualified immunity claims and that this 5th Circuit decision is in opposition to that momentum. https://texaslawreview.org/the-end-o...fied-immunity/ This was an observation about the current SCOTUS, too... so this is including Barrett and Kavanagh. My vague (yes high probability of being naïve, I know, let me have SOME hope) hope is that that is the plan and it will backfire. Force the issue up to the Supreme Court hoping that Trump's appointee's will rubberstamp a stereotypical conservative "Cops are good, apple pie is good, praise Jesus" ruling and... they won't. SCOTUS actually ending qualified immunity as a concept is one of those wins even SuburbanTurkey will have to stop screeching "All is lost! All is lost!" over for at least a few seconds. I mean it's not gonna happen, but it's a nice thought.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

28th June 2021, 11:13 AM	#322
Babbylonian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 13,994	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Fifth Circuit Grants Qualified Immunity To Officers Who Tased Man Soaked in Gasoline, Knowing it Would Light Him on Fire https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/ev...-their-co.html Welcome to why people shouldn't get too excited about the Chauvin verdict. For every appropriate guilty verdict and sentence there are a dozen incidents wherein obviously criminal cops suffer no consequences worse than forced paid vacation.

28th June 2021, 01:59 PM	#327
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue My vague (yes high probability of being naïve, I know, let me have SOME hope) hope is that that is the plan and it will backfire. Force the issue up to the Supreme Court hoping that Trump's appointee's will rubberstamp a stereotypical conservative "Cops are good, apple pie is good, praise Jesus" ruling and... they won't. SCOTUS actually ending qualified immunity as a concept is one of those wins even SuburbanTurkey will have to stop screeching "All is lost! All is lost!" over for at least a few seconds. I mean it's not gonna happen, but it's a nice thought. Change of qualified immunity would indeed be a huge step. It should be the courts that kill this thing. SCOTUS invented qualified immunity out of whole cloth in 1967, so it's only appropriate that they clean up their mess: https://theappeal.org/the-lab/explai...ity-explained/ It should be said that civil lawsuits are really thin gruel when it comes to dealing with police violence. It would still be a huge double standard if cops can commit acts of criminal violence and would only be looking at civil, not criminal, sanctions. The real "just" solution would be criminal prosecution for examples of police brutality or other civil rights violations, but that is a huge ask where DAs have close relationships with the police and bootlicker politics reign supreme. There's some movement on that front, with the DOJ making a big show of investigating a few high profile cases of police brutality, but it's hard to imagine this standard will apply to more routine, low-profile examples of police criminal violence. At least with civil lawsuits, the adversarial system of the court and the potential for big payoffs means there's some impetus for someone to actually take up a civil rights violation case, where local DAs only see negatives and political risk.
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 28th June 2021 at 02:01 PM.

29th June 2021, 04:49 AM	#330
Planigale Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: 49 North Posts: 5,931	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Change of qualified immunity would indeed be a huge step. It should be the courts that kill this thing. SCOTUS invented qualified immunity out of whole cloth in 1967, so it's only appropriate that they clean up their mess: https://theappeal.org/the-lab/explai...ity-explained/ It should be said that civil lawsuits are really thin gruel when it comes to dealing with police violence. It would still be a huge double standard if cops can commit acts of criminal violence and would only be looking at civil, not criminal, sanctions. The real "just" solution would be criminal prosecution for examples of police brutality or other civil rights violations, but that is a huge ask where DAs have close relationships with the police and bootlicker politics reign supreme. There's some movement on that front, with the DOJ making a big show of investigating a few high profile cases of police brutality, but it's hard to imagine this standard will apply to more routine, low-profile examples of police criminal violence. At least with civil lawsuits, the adversarial system of the court and the potential for big payoffs means there's some impetus for someone to actually take up a civil rights violation case, where local DAs only see negatives and political risk. In many situations this should include criminal prosecution of the police service not just the grunt on the ground. Command responsibility. If The officers commanding were at risk of conviction for the actions of those under their command standards would be enforced / improved. Continuing to prosecute individual officers will have less impact than prosecuting the Sheriff / police chief, etc. At present it easier to keep dubious people in post and not stand up to the union. If keeping someone in post who was not suited to be a police officer meant those in charge might have to take responsibility for subsequent happenings I think there would be more steel in dealing with police unions.

29th June 2021, 07:15 AM	#331
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Cop shot and killed a 17 year old boy that was armed with a blue jug. Witness at the scene says cop made no commands or warning, just opened fire striking the boy in the neck. Quote: During a traffic stop last week, an Arkansas sheriff’s deputy shot and killed a teenage boy who was only armed with a neon-blue jug of antifreeze, family members told VICE News. Lonoke County Sheriff’s Office Sgt. Michael Davis stopped 17-year-old Hunter Brittain near Cabot, Arkansas, at about 3 a.m. last Wednesday, and it’s still unclear why. Hunter had been having trouble with his truck when Davis pulled in behind him outside of a local auto repair shop and flashed his emergency lights, according to the account of a 16-year-old riding with Hunter at the time. When Hunter went to put the antifreeze behind his back tire so his vehicle wouldn’t roll into the officer’s, Davis allegedly fired at him. https://www.vice.com/en/article/5db5...icenewstwitter Quote: “In potentially dangerous situations, deputies are often forced to make split-second decisions,” Staley said. “Second-guessing those decisions, especially when the facts are still unclear, is dangerous and unfair.” Some might argue that getting shot dead for trying to chock the tires on your broken truck is dangerous and unfair, but opinions differ.
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 29th June 2021 at 07:18 AM.

29th June 2021, 07:17 AM	#332
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Cop shot and killed a 17 year old boy that was armed with a blue jug. https://www.vice.com/en/article/5db5...icenewstwitter All this one was a white rural aspiring NASCAR driver in a pickup, so the apologist can't whine about the media having a "narrative" this time. Although they probably still will.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

29th June 2021, 08:18 AM	#333
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,403	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Cop shot and killed a 17 year old boy that was armed with a blue jug. Witness at the scene says cop made no commands or warning, just opened fire striking the boy in the neck. https://www.vice.com/en/article/5db5...icenewstwitter Some might argue that getting shot dead for trying to chock the tires on your broken truck is dangerous and unfair, but opinions differ. I'd like to ask Warp12's opinion on what actions this "perp" took to warrant the officer to use deadly force.
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,403	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

29th June 2021, 09:56 AM	#334
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 7,668	Originally Posted by erlando I'd like to ask Warp12's opinion on what actions this "perp" took to warrant the officer to use deadly force. It could have been a Molotov Cocktail. Imagine how much damage one that size could do. A giant, bright blue, unlit Molotov Cocktail.

29th June 2021, 11:24 AM	#335
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	I wonder a certain someone will be along to question how fast this kid can run for 40 pages and then deny they ever did it? Somehow I doubt it.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

30th June 2021, 06:56 AM	#336
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I wonder a certain someone will be along to question how fast this kid can run for 40 pages and then deny they ever did it? Somehow I doubt it. Lying, check. Eyelash fluttering, check. Nice to see you've checked in early. So this kid is doing transmission work at 3AM ( story says he wasn't broken down, but was working through the night doing tranny repairs, so he could drive to a construction site to work at 6 AM. I'm sure he could work safely on no sleep and working on a truck through the night, rather than make other arrangements to get to work. Also, the truck was apparently rolling backwards into the cop So I guess his parking brake didn't work either. The truck was apparently rolling backwards towards the cop car, with the cop in it (since the cop stopped him, the trans was functioning up until said stop). So the kid was likely moving fast with the...antifreeze jug?...to chock the tires and avoid rolling into the cruiser. So the cop looks up at 3AM to see a truck backing up towards him and a kid unexpectedly jumping out of the vehicle and heading towards him fast, with something large in his hand. Yeah, the cop had every reason to be concerned that something weird was going on and it was possibly an attack against him. But that's not good enough to shoot to the neck, or shoot at all. This cop should never breathe free air again. As with Guyger, the McMicheals and all the rest: why isn't this cop in lockup for murder right ******* now? You or I would be.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

30th June 2021, 03:13 PM	#337
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,624	Originally Posted by Thermal Lying, check. Eyelash fluttering, check. Nice to see you've checked in early. So this kid is doing transmission work at 3AM ( story says he wasn't broken down, but was working through the night doing tranny repairs, so he could drive to a construction site to work at 6 AM. I'm sure he could work safely on no sleep and working on a truck through the night, rather than make other arrangements to get to work. Also, the truck was apparently rolling backwards into the cop So I guess his parking brake didn't work either. The truck was apparently rolling backwards towards the cop car, with the cop in it (since the cop stopped him, the trans was functioning up until said stop). So the kid was likely moving fast with the...antifreeze jug?...to chock the tires and avoid rolling into the cruiser. So the cop looks up at 3AM to see a truck backing up towards him and a kid unexpectedly jumping out of the vehicle and heading towards him fast, with something large in his hand. Yeah, the cop had every reason to be concerned that something weird was going on and it was possibly an attack against him. But that's not good enough to shoot to the neck, or shoot at all. This cop should never breathe free air again. As with Guyger, the McMicheals and all the rest: why isn't this cop in lockup for murder right ******* now? You or I would be. Story seems to add up so far: Quote: Scott Hundley owns Hundley Construction and he said that Brittain worked for him on and off for the past few years. Hundley said he talked to Hunter around 7 p.m. the night before. “I was checking with him on his truck,” Hundley said. “[He was] sending me pictures of his truck at the shop. He says he's been working on this truck but he’s trying to make it.” Hundley said Hunter worked harder for him than many adults. Hundley showed KATV the Facebook messages between the two where Hunter tells his boss he’ll ask for a ride from another co-worker if he’s unable to get his truck up and running. Quote: There’s only one other person who was there that morning. Jordan King, 16, spoke to KATV off camera. He said he and Brittain had worked through the night to change the transmission on his truck so he could work that morning and drove about a mile down the road to Mahoney's Body Shop to make the repairs. He said their families are friends with the owner. https://katv.com/news/local/teen-wit...ares-his-story Sounds like a 17 year old kid trying to get to work on time to me. According to this he had a good work ethic. Some young people do. ETA: Let's try this version: Quote: So the cop looks up at 3AM to see a truck slowly rolling up towards him and a kid getting out of the vehicle and heading towards the car, with something large in his hand. I can think of twenty other possibilities of why someone would do this, the least common being "guy was about to shoot cop" - guy is drunk or high - guy has mental issues - guy is dumb - guy doesn't expect cops to shoot people carrying objects that don't look like guns. I would think that all of these happen much more frequently then - guy gets out to shoot cop
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,624	__________________ Why bother? Last edited by mgidm86; 30th June 2021 at 03:33 PM.

30th June 2021, 04:33 PM	#338
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by mgidm86 Story seems to add up so far: https://katv.com/news/local/teen-wit...ares-his-story Sounds like a 17 year old kid trying to get to work on time to me. According to this he had a good work ethic. Some young people do. ETA: Let's try this version: I can think of twenty other possibilities of why someone would do this, the least common being "guy was about to shoot cop" - guy is drunk or high - guy has mental issues - guy is dumb - guy doesn't expect cops to shoot people carrying objects that don't look like guns. I would think that all of these happen much more frequently then - guy gets out to shoot cop Agreed. Did you make it to the end of the post you are responding to? Re: the driver. He drives in the middle of the night on a bad transmission (?) to switch it out. He's on that till 3AM. With some other 16 yr old in the truck. During his 1 mile ride home (what, 2 or three minutes of driving?), he does something to attract the attention of the Sheriff. The Deputy perhaps wants to talk about curfews and minor drivers with other children in the car and no adult (my states laws, anyway). Maybe something about driving a highly unsafe vehicle. So the truck starts rolling backwards towards the cop. The driver couldn't hit the brakes, I assume. Or the parking brake, either. He feels he has to...shove a jug of antifreeze to chock the tire? You ever try that? I don't think that would work out. What I'm saying is this story has a lot of highly implausible in it. I'm guessing it's been edited to make the driver look innocent and hard-working. But as I said before, no reason to shoot. The cop should be in a cell right now like you or I would.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet Last edited by Thermal; 30th June 2021 at 04:34 PM.

30th June 2021, 05:09 PM	#339
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Double post, deleted.
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th June 2021 at 05:12 PM.

30th June 2021, 05:11 PM	#340
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by Thermal Agreed. Did you make it to the end of the post you are responding to? Re: the driver. He drives in the middle of the night on a bad transmission (?) to switch it out. He's on that till 3AM. With some other 16 yr old in the truck. During his 1 mile ride home (what, 2 or three minutes of driving?), he does something to attract the attention of the Sheriff. The Deputy perhaps wants to talk about curfews and minor drivers with other children in the car and no adult (my states laws, anyway). Maybe something about driving a highly unsafe vehicle. So the truck starts rolling backwards towards the cop. The driver couldn't hit the brakes, I assume. Or the parking brake, either. He feels he has to...shove a jug of antifreeze to chock the tire? You ever try that? I don't think that would work out. What I'm saying is this story has a lot of highly implausible in it. I'm guessing it's been edited to make the driver look innocent and hard-working. But as I said before, no reason to shoot. The cop should be in a cell right now like you or I would. What other explanation do you propose that is more plausible? Seems like you're casting a lot of doubt based on your personal incredulity but not offering any other explanation that you find less fanciful. I have a lot of sympathy for this kid. I spent a lot of time in my youth trying to keep junkers running. For a while I had to park my motorcycle at the top of the hill to bump start it because the charging system didn't work, and I spent more hours than I care to count tinkering in parking lots and auto shops. No cop murdered me for the crime of being too poor for a reliable vehicle, so I guess I have no complaints.

30th June 2021, 05:44 PM	#341
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey What other explanation do you propose that is more plausible? Seems like you're casting a lot of doubt based on your personal incredulity but not offering any other explanation that you find less fanciful. I have a lot of sympathy for this kid. I spent a lot of time in my youth trying to keep junkers running. For a while I had to park my motorcycle at the top of the hill to bump start it because the charging system didn't work, and I spent more hours than I care to count tinkering in parking lots and auto shops. No cop murdered me for the crime of being too poor for a reliable vehicle, so I guess I have no complaints. As did I. Still do, to some degree. What I am noting is that there are an awful.lot of screwey details that make for an eye squint, here. As a former motorhead trying to nurse a little more power out of the 289 in my 68 Mustang: would you try to chock a truck with a plastic antifreeze jug? That strains credibility. You have someone else's child out with you at 3AM swapping trannys? What is that, a dozen bolts on the bell housing, yoke in the back and the linkage with a 150 lb trans, and the pan and screen? Not an all-nighter for two guys with access to a shop. I'm thinking this sounds more like a couple guys getting fired up after fixing the truck, which is maybe why they got pulled over during the one mile return trip. We have nothing but the 16 year olds version, remember. When you were 16, did you sugar coat your cover stories or leave out the bad stuff? I can't think of a reason why the cop would justifiably fire. But im not about to swallow this wholesome tale of innocence hook line and sinker either. Not just yet. I'd like to see the body cams or something else first. Unreasonable?
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet Last edited by Thermal; 30th June 2021 at 05:45 PM.

1st July 2021, 04:53 AM	#342
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by Thermal As did I. Still do, to some degree. What I am noting is that there are an awful.lot of screwey details that make for an eye squint, here. As a former motorhead trying to nurse a little more power out of the 289 in my 68 Mustang: would you try to chock a truck with a plastic antifreeze jug? That strains credibility. You have someone else's child out with you at 3AM swapping trannys? What is that, a dozen bolts on the bell housing, yoke in the back and the linkage with a 150 lb trans, and the pan and screen? Not an all-nighter for two guys with access to a shop. I'm thinking this sounds more like a couple guys getting fired up after fixing the truck, which is maybe why they got pulled over during the one mile return trip. We have nothing but the 16 year olds version, remember. When you were 16, did you sugar coat your cover stories or leave out the bad stuff? I can't think of a reason why the cop would justifiably fire. But im not about to swallow this wholesome tale of innocence hook line and sinker either. Not just yet. I'd like to see the body cams or something else first. Unreasonable? Yeah this 17 year old is going to lose his mechanic certification doing such shoddy transmission work.

1st July 2021, 04:58 AM	#343
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	LASD deputy describing how she wears a breathable mesh facemask when at work or visiting the hospital, encouraging anti-mask BS. Shares a coupon code for micro-mesh masks that look like normal facemasks, but are breathable and allow you to spew plague particles unrestricted. https://twitter.com/VPS_Reports/stat...74436129771524

1st July 2021, 07:48 AM	#344
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Yeah this 17 year old is going to lose his mechanic certification doing such shoddy transmission work. ...?
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

1st July 2021, 07:51 AM	#345
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by Thermal ...? I'm just baffled by your comment that suggests it's routine for 17 year olds to be able to effortlessly and correctly perform automatic transmission repairs. It's kinda known to be a tricky operation, especially if you're trying to save bucks by rebuilding a broken transmission rather than paying thousands of dollars for a drop in replacement. There's nothing at all suspicious about the story told by the surviving teen. They botched a transmission repair and the parking gear didnt work.

1st July 2021, 08:21 AM	#346
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I'm just baffled by your comment that suggests it's routine for 17 year olds to be able to effortlessly and correctly perform automatic transmission repairs. It's kinda known to be a tricky operation, especially if you're trying to save bucks by rebuilding a broken transmission rather than paying thousands of dollars for a drop in replacement. The story says specifically that he was replacing the trans, not rebuilding it. I've done a swap out as a (later) teen with nothing more than a Chiltons manual as a guide, and no access to a shop. And I did it with a junkyard replacement. Poor kids don't buy new, sailor. Quote: There's nothing at all suspicious about the story told by the surviving teen. They botched a transmission repair and the parking gear didnt work. As I said, it's more that every detail is a little screwy, not that it is implausible. Sounds a lot like saying. "Oh I was on the road at 3AM with somebody else's kid in a wildly unsafe truck (no brakes, no parking brake, bad tranny at a minimum) because we totally fell asleep at the movies. Really, we weren't partying or anything". As you should know by now, I won't conclude anything from one side of a story, especially a suspiciously wholesome one. Color me untrusting of pure objectivity from one of the actors. Still, because it needs to be said around here, I can think of no reason to fire. But I'd like to hear what the deputy has to say first. You find that unimportant for drawing even the most tentative of conclusions?
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

1st July 2021, 08:41 AM	#347
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by Thermal The story says specifically that he was replacing the trans, not rebuilding it. I've done a swap out as a (later) teen with nothing more than a Chiltons manual as a guide, and no access to a shop. And I did it with a junkyard replacement. Poor kids don't buy new, sailor. As I said, it's more that every detail is a little screwy, not that it is implausible. Sounds a lot like saying. "Oh I was on the road at 3AM with somebody else's kid in a wildly unsafe truck (no brakes, no parking brake, bad tranny at a minimum) because we totally fell asleep at the movies. Really, we weren't partying or anything". As you should know by now, I won't conclude anything from one side of a story, especially a suspiciously wholesome one. Color me untrusting of pure objectivity from one of the actors. Still, because it needs to be said around here, I can think of no reason to fire. But I'd like to hear what the deputy has to say first. You find that unimportant for drawing even the most tentative of conclusions? "someone else's child" is an odd way of saying a teenager and his similar aged friend. I suppose this is a useful verbiage to make it seem unusual that a couple teenagers might hang out together.

1st July 2021, 08:55 AM	#348
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey "someone else's child" is an odd way of saying a teenager and his similar aged friend. I suppose this is a useful verbiage to make it seem unusual that a couple teenagers might hang out together. "Child" is just underscoring the obvious peripheral problems. You know how the law views minors driving around together at 3AM. In my State, that's a handful of fairly serious offenses, that a new driver would be fully aware of, having recently studied for his written driver's test. Just think about the known facts: kids driving unsupervised in the middle of the freaking night in a truck evidently falling apart. The actual facts are breaking multiple laws. Is it so odd to think they were maybe not being quite as wholesome as the 16 yr old claims? And again: are you coming to even tentative conclusions based on one side of the story? If you were a juror, would you pronounce a verdict based on having heard only one side's opening arguments?
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

1st July 2021, 09:00 AM	#349
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by Thermal "Child" is just underscoring the obvious peripheral problems. You know how the law views minors driving around together at 3AM. In my State, that's a handful of fairly serious offenses, that a new driver would be fully aware of, having recently studied for his written driver's test. Just think about the known facts: kids driving unsupervised in the middle of the freaking night in a truck evidently falling apart. The actual facts are breaking multiple laws. Is it so odd to think they were maybe not being quite as wholesome as the 16 yr old claims? And again: are you coming to even tentative conclusions based on one side of the story? If you were a juror, would you pronounce a verdict based on having heard only one side's opening arguments? The known facts are the only witness besides the killer claims that nothing unusual was occurring, and the killer has clammed up has offered no reasonable explanation for shooting an unarmed person. But yeah, we should probably ask how fast they could both run a mile first.

1st July 2021, 09:13 AM	#350
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey The known facts are the only witness besides the killer claims that nothing unusual was occurring, and the killer has clammed up has offered no reasonable explanation for shooting an unarmed person. But yeah, we should probably ask how fast they could both run a mile first. Really? A pair of minors driving at 3AM with no adult in an apparently dramatically unsafe ride is "nothing unusual"? They also had the survivor cuffed for hours. That doesn't suggest that there might be a little more to this story than he chose to disclose? And yet again: I'm not saying he's lying, or that Brittain wasn't murdered (I think he likely was). I'm saying theres no need to be so gullible just because you like the way that narrative is served up. His side, her side, and the truth. I like the truth. Others like his side only.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

1st July 2021, 09:15 AM	#351
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by Thermal Really? A pair of minors driving at 3AM with no adult in an apparently dramatically unsafe ride is "nothing unusual"? They also had the survivor cuffed for hours. That doesn't suggest that there might be a little more to this story than he chose to disclose? And yet again: I'm not saying he's lying, or that Brittain wasn't murdered (I think he likely was). I'm saying theres no need to be so gullible just because you like the way that narrative is served up. His side, her side, and the truth. I like the truth. Others like his side only. Anytime the cops wrongfully murder someone they pretty much always arrest everyone on the scene. There's a pretty handy rule of thumb when it comes to police killings. The more justified the shooting is, the faster the police release details and any available video footage that might exonerate them. Seeing as they have yet to do so, smart betters say this smells like another trigger happy cop committing murder. So far we have an eyewitness that describes the two working on the truck. We have the kid's boss saying that they talked on the phone that night saying he was trying to get the truck running, and the claim that they were pulled over after leaving an auto shop. But sure, I suppose it's reasonable to wildly speculate and treat those wild speculations as more likely than what all available evidence strongly indicates.
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 1st July 2021 at 09:19 AM.

1st July 2021, 09:18 AM	#352
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,956	Originally Posted by Thermal They also had the survivor cuffed for hours. That doesn't suggest that there might be a little more to this story than he chose to disclose? Just like the demented old lady who the cops broker her arm. She was also hilariously handcuffed for hours.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

1st July 2021, 09:49 AM	#353
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by Thermal They also had the survivor cuffed for hours. That doesn't suggest that there might be a little more to this story than he chose to disclose? Maybe they were told they can't kneel on the suspects heads so they have to cuff them instead.

1st July 2021, 10:00 AM	#354
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,894	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Anytime the cops wrongfully murder someone they pretty much always arrest everyone on the scene. There's a pretty handy rule of thumb when it comes to police killings. The more justified the shooting is, the faster the police release details and any available video footage that might exonerate them. Seeing as they have yet to do so, smart betters say this smells like another trigger happy cop committing murder. So far we have an eyewitness that describes the two working on the truck. We have the kid's boss saying that they talked on the phone that night saying he was trying to get the truck running, and the claim that they were pulled over after leaving an auto shop. But sure, I suppose it's reasonable to wildly speculate and treat those wild speculations as more likely than what all available evidence strongly indicates. You're strawmanning pretty hard there, man. I don't treat anything as more likely except that the objective truth will likely be different from the recounting of a 16 yr old actor in the story.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

1st July 2021, 10:15 AM	#355
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	What the cops say happened: Originally Posted by PPB A crowd has formed at the officer involved shooting scene. Some participants have thrown objects and tried to enter the closed area. An officer’s baton was grabbed by someone and when another officer intervened, the officer was sprayed with a chemical. https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/s...03481962655744 Video of what actually happened. https://twitter.com/i/status/1408313568299130880

1st July 2021, 10:41 AM	#356
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 10,969	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey What the cops say happened: https://twitter.com/PortlandPolice/s...03481962655744 Video of what actually happened. https://twitter.com/i/status/1408313568299130880 As hard as I try I can't match anything up with the actual incident as it unfolded in the 2nd link. What am I missing?
	__________________ "OTP? I don' need no steenkin' OTP!"

1st July 2021, 10:57 AM	#357
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by bluesjnr As hard as I try I can't match anything up with the actual incident as it unfolded in the 2nd link. What am I missing? Twitter thread links are weird. It should be the last video in the thread that corresponds with the PPB version of events. Quote: A bystander caught the moment PPB assaulted and maced peaceful protesters on scene - this video is very intense, warning. https://twitter.com/gravemorgan/stat...13568299130880 The video shows a protestor approach the riot line and yell at a cop and point their finger. The cops apparently doesn't like being talked to this way, takes a couple swats at the person's pointed finger, then starts charging with his nightstick. All the fellow riot cops charge in and start spraying pepperspray everywhere. If any cop was sprayed, it was friendly fire. The video is unambiguous in showing that the cops initiated the violence, but you wouldn't get that impression from how the police describe events.
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 1st July 2021 at 12:05 PM.