Go woke, go broke

[Dr. Keith]

This idea that going woke leads to companies going broke was brought up in another thread. It seems slightly off topic there and I think it deserves some discussion.

My thought is that every major decision by a company will help to define how customers view that company, everything comes back to branding.

As such I haven’t seen any solid examples that would prove that going woke even correlates to going broke, much less that it is a conclusive result of going woke.

So, main topics: what is going woke? What is going broke? And what are some examples of companies that went woke and are now broke?

Side topic: what companies appear to be going woke now, so that we can track their brokenness later.

Such as Carhartt requiring vaccinations. Is that going woke? Will they go broke?

[plague311]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Such as Carhartt requiring vaccinations. Is that going woke? Will they go broke?

I just bought an $80 coat from them, so if they are going broke it's not because of me!

[SuburbanTurkey]

You often come across reactionary freaks shrieking about the "woke" part. I'm not aware of the "go broke" part being delivered on.

At best these right wing freaks have a tantrum that makes news, and maybe the stock price bobbles in the short term to thunderous applause, then business continues on as usual.

Gillette and Nike still seem to be chugging along fine despite their transgressions.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by plague311

I just bought an $80 coat from them, so if they are going broke it's not because of me!

So, one of their cheaper coats.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

You often come across reactionary freaks shrieking about the "woke" part. I'm not aware of the "go broke" part being delivered on.

At best these right wing freaks have a tantrum that makes news, and maybe the stock price bobbles in the short term to thunderous applause, then business continues on as usual.

Gillette and Nike still seem to be chugging along fine despite their transgressions.

Ooh, thanks. Your mention of Gillette triggered another concern: are they going broke because they went woke?

Often there are other confounding factors, like facing a huge influx of new competitors to your core products. Sometimes it is hard to say why a company is faltering, but most often the market has a pretty good narrative as to why a stock is no longer performing. For publicly traded stock the public perception is pretty easy to track.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Ooh, thanks. Your mention of Gillette triggered another concern: are they going broke because they went woke?

Often there are other confounding factors, like facing a huge influx of new competitors to your core products. Sometimes it is hard to say why a company is faltering, but most often the market has a pretty good narrative as to why a stock is no longer performing. For publicly traded stock the public perception is pretty easy to track.

I think quite the opposite is often true. Marketing types realize that agitation the hornet's nest of reactionary dip-***** is a great way to get tons of free coverage for your brand.

I would be surprised if Gillette's ad wasn't intended to piss off the most reactionary people in this country on purpose.

[Donal]

You need to define "woke" first. It seems to be making statements or taking positions on social issues someone disagrees with.

As for "corporate wokeness"...meh. It's just another way for them to pander to certain crowds and launder their own reputations (and get a nice tax write-off). Putting rainbow flags or writing BLM on your merchandise is the same as stamping an American flag on it or painting it pink.

[Donal]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I think quite the opposite is often true. Marketing types realize that agitation the hornet's nest of reactionary dip-***** is a great way to get tons of free coverage for your brand.

I would be surprised if Gillette's ad wasn't intended to piss off the most reactionary people in this country on purpose.

They ran to buy a bunch of razors so they could make YouTube videos of themselves burning it all.

PS: Real men don't use disposables anyway. Safety razors and straight edges are better for the environment and more cost-effective.

[Thermal]

They need to do the right thing, woke or not woke. Carhartt needs to require vaccinations for public safety. The hillbillies need to get over themselves. **** 'em if they can't take a woke.

[tyr_13]

It isn't an honest economic hypothesis though, so maybe it does belong in social issues. It's just the same old group trying to comfort themselves by asserting they're still the prime wielders of socioeconomic force, regardless of reality. It's the 'silent majority' pretending they're still either all over again.

[Armitage72]

I've seen multiple YouTube videos claiming that Disney is suffering because all of their recent Disney+ "M-She-U" series have been miserable failures. (Meaning they featured female characters more prominently than these people liked, such as "Hawkeye".)

[Donal]

Originally Posted by Armitage72

I've seen multiple YouTube videos claiming that Disney is suffering because all of their recent Disney+ "M-She-U" series have been miserable failures. (Meaning they featured female characters more prominently than these people liked, such as "Hawkeye".)

I find it easier to believe that Disney is on the verge of bankruptcy than anyone likes Hawkeye.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by Thermal

They need to do the right thing, woke or not woke. Carhartt needs to require vaccinations for public safety. The hillbillies need to get over themselves. **** 'em if they can't take a woke.

The funny thing was that they seemed motivated just as much by the capitalist goal of protecting the investment they have made in their workforce. Sick people don’t clock in and do run up hospital bills.

I tried that sales pitch at work, but I work in Texas. We happily throw away money to piss off the libs.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by tyr_13

It isn't an honest economic hypothesis though, so maybe it does belong in social issues. It's just the same old group trying to comfort themselves by asserting they're still the prime wielders of socioeconomic force, regardless of reality. It's the 'silent majority' pretending they're still either all over again.

I would like to think our fellow members aren’t lying, but you may be right.

I figured a clear space to post a few examples and discuss them would help get to the bottom of this.

[Roger Ramjets]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

So, main topics: what is going woke? What is going broke?

And what are some examples of companies that went woke and are now broke?

When brands go woke, do they go broke?

Quote:

The phrase ‘Get woke, go broke’ originated after a paper by John Ringo was published online in 2018 that refers to the rise of organisations using politically correct actions as part of their strategy, only for that to result in a massive loss of income because they have abandoned mass reach. It soon gained some cut through and has been regularly used in online analysis of businesses as diverse as Gillette and Disney...

Failures do exist

Gillette are undoubtedly the most famous example this side of the shore, facing genuine backlash when they switched from ‘the best a man can get’ to ‘the best men can be’ and all that entailed...

But it’s not the whole story

It would be tempted to say that going woke, if it didn’t make them broke, certainly lost Nike and Gillette some money along the way, but it’s never really that simple. Both companies are battling a market that has changed considerably... Indeed, Harry’s have arguably done a much better job at looking at toxic masculinity than their big-time rival, creating a long form video in 2018 that fought gender stereotypes and genuinely sparked conversation around what it means to be masculine in the modern world.

Far from looking like an ill-judged apology for the mass reach of the traditional male, it opened up the purpose of the start-up to being part of the conversation about what it means to be man.

So Gillette didn't 'go broke' (lose a bunch of money) due to 'going woke', they lost out to a competitor because they didn't go woke enough!

Quote:

Side topic: what companies appear to be going woke now, so that we can track their brokenness later.

Everywhere a business tried going woke it has failed, or will fail sometime in the future. This is an obvious, incontrovertible, irrefutable and unfalsifiable fact.

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

I tried that sales pitch at work, but I work in Texas. We happily throw away money to piss off the libs.

But not just to piss off the libs. Every business knows that pissing off libs will bring in more business from people who appreciate your efforts. But it's more than that, because the libs' goal is to eliminate the excesses of unbridled capitalism our freedoms and turn the country into a communist hellhole. So pissing off libs is good for business in every sense.

[bruto]

I can't think of any good examples of "woke-broke," and I suspect it's wishful thinking on the part of many. Companies always have to gamble a little on whose good will they'll profit most by, and try to guess what trends and new regulations are around the corner.

The example of Dick's Sporting Goods came up in the predecessor to this thread, and there's perhaps an example. I don't know how much of that chain's revenue depends on guns, but I bet someone did the arithmetic to figure out how much they'd lose if, for example, a local school district decided not to buy their sports uniforms from them again, or a victim of a shooting sued the seller of the gun, and so forth.

I think it's a fairly small percentage of people who even think very much in terms of "woke" and not woke, but I doubt they have either the strength or the intelligence to break a big business that's being run intelligently, or even just not stupidly. Big businesses that go broke seem to be able to do this out of pure and apolitical mismanagement and bad luck. Which I suppose is why we don't get our tools at Sears any more, or our socks at K Mart, or computers at Circuit City, or groceries at the A&P, books from Borders, and on and on.

Of course not all those failures are due to as conspicuously egregiously bad management as some like Sears and Borders, and of course a lot is anecdotal and geographically specific. But I know that here, at least, it's a lot easier to find a pint of Ben & Jerry's than it is to find a surviving Hobby Lobby.

[Orphia Nay]

Being nice to people actually turned out profitable for Gravity Payments whose CEO took a pay cut to fund $70,000 incomes for all his employees.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dan-pri...-minimum-wage/

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Being nice to people actually turned out profitable for Gravity Payments whose CEO took a pay cut to fund $70,000 incomes for all his employees.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dan-pri...-minimum-wage/

Dan is the only reason I check LinkedIn. He stirs **** with a passion.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

This idea that going woke leads to companies going broke was brought up in another thread. It seems slightly off topic there and I think it deserves some discussion.

My thought is that every major decision by a company will help to define how customers view that company, everything comes back to branding.

As such I haven’t seen any solid examples that would prove that going woke even correlates to going broke, much less that it is a conclusive result of going woke.

So, main topics: what is going woke? What is going broke? And what are some examples of companies that went woke and are now broke?

Side topic: what companies appear to be going woke now, so that we can track their brokenness later.

Such as Carhartt requiring vaccinations. Is that going woke? Will they go broke?

If requiring vaccines is one's measure, Fox News should go broke in 3... 2... 1.

[Meadmaker]

I googled the phrase, and the articles that came up didn't give examples. I saw several references to surveys that said they wished the stores would stay out of politics, and criticizing whatever "woke" action had come to prominence, but there weren't any examples of companies that lost money or changed their woke ways following consumer boycotts.


I think the various woke actions are unpopuilar, but people still like cheap stuff.

I think perhaps it's difficult to convince people who believe in free markets that they ought to base their buying decisions on political statements.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Ooh, thanks. Your mention of Gillette triggered another concern: are they going broke because they went woke?

Well, a little Googling shows that Gillette is owned by Proctor & Gamble, a gigantic conglomerate. Further Googling shows that P&G stock is up 23% in the last year, and 73% in the last 5 years. They ain't broke.

Nike Stock on the other hand is only up 1.5% over the past year, but is up 138% over the last 5 years. They ain't broke either.

So neither of those seem to work as examples.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I googled the phrase, and the articles that came up didn't give examples. I saw several references to surveys that said they wished the stores would stay out of politics, and criticizing whatever "woke" action had come to prominence, but there weren't any examples of companies that lost money or changed their woke ways following consumer boycotts.


I think the various woke actions are unpopuilar, but people still like cheap stuff.

I think perhaps it's difficult to convince people who believe in free markets that they ought to base their buying decisions on political statements.

I think also it''s disingenuous for many critics to say stores should stay out of politics. Its politics to the people perhaps, but not so much to the stores. Stores determine who their customers are, and how to serve them so they make more money. In fact, to some people of a strong political bent, an action take by a business to remove itself from political discourse can easily be interpreted as the opposite. A business that modifies its appearance to avoid being perceived as right wing will be seen by the right wing as wrongly embracing some nefarious wokeness.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I think quite the opposite is often true. Marketing types realize that agitation the hornet's nest of reactionary dip-***** is a great way to get tons of free coverage for your brand.

I would be surprised if Gillette's ad wasn't intended to piss off the most reactionary people in this country on purpose.

Correct, and I even wrote a thread about it before: The Keurig Effect

Long story short, companies used to avoid publicity ####-storms. One company called Keurig, purely accidentally, while trying to avoid one ####-storm, created a MUCH bigger ####-storm. And their sales went UP for it.

It wasn't intentional in that case, but other companies took concluded that you can actually intentionally cause a massive ####-storm all over the internet, and actually benefit from it.

Gillette is a good example of a case where it was indeed intentional.

[HansMustermann]

That said, much as I like to dump on reactionary idiots, the effect works best if you get cretins from both sides of the spectrum duking it out.

And indeed just as much as the ones thinking that the country is going downhill and Nike (as the first company to deliberately try to replicate Keurig effect) is their enemy for putting up a "woke" commercial ARE idiots... so are the smoothbrains on the wannabe-woke side of the spectrum who thought Nike was their bestest friend and ally for putting out those ads. Or as a more recent example, both those who think Amazon is OMG their enemy and gone all woke for having black elves, and those who think Amazon is their friend and gone all woke for the same reason. Both sides in that fight are just as much delusional idiots.

In reality, none of the companies doing that showed any sign of going any more progressive or left-wing or anything. Amazon is still not treating their workers any better. Nike still uses sweatshops in poor countries. Etc.

They just need two groups of delusional and easily triggered keyboard-warriors to carpet bomb the Internet with everything from memes, to angry posts, to serious podcasts about the demographics, fashion and history of Midgard. (Even Scholagladiatoria now has an episode about dwarf beards in a fiction setting, fer fork's sake.) That's just how you get a ####-ton of exposure, for a tiny fraction of the cost of normal advertising. Even if you had zero interest in it (as I keep saying, Tolkien just bored me stiff), now you go to your favourite expert in actual European weapons and martial arts, and learn that hey, Amazon makes a new series about shaved dwarves or something.

And again: from BOTH sides. If only one side is going nuts, it dies out quickly. You need an equal and opposite mass of delusional twits who think being "woke" (or contributing to any other movement) means barking the loudest, to keep prodding them.

So yeah, if you thought any of those companies are going "woke", and had knee-jerk reaction either way... you might be mistaken, to say the least.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by bruto

I can't think of any good examples of "woke-broke," and I suspect it's wishful thinking on the part of many. Companies always have to gamble a little on whose good will they'll profit most by, and try to guess what trends and new regulations are around the corner.

The example of Dick's Sporting Goods came up in the predecessor to this thread, and there's perhaps an example.

...snip...

It isn't. The article Ziggurat linked to as his example of "go woke go broke" said the exact opposite. Them going "woke" increased their revenues and profits.

Most "going woke" is what we used to be call "marketing to your consumer base".

[Armitage72]

When the usual suspects were calling for a boycott of Honey Maid graham crackers because they showed a same-sex couple and their child in one of their commercials, I went out and bought a couple boxes out of spite. I know other people who did the same thing. I hadn't eaten them in years at that point.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by Darat

It isn't. The article Ziggurat linked to as his example of "go woke go broke" said the exact opposite. Them going "woke" increased their revenues and profits.

Most "going woke" is what we used to be call "marketing to your consumer base".

Except, as I was saying, the biggest ####-storms you hear about aren't either going "woke", nor actually caring to any significant degree about marketing to a specific demographic. It's specifically trying to cause a ####-storm for publicity.

I'll tell you what happens when a company actually starts caring about a specific demographic: well, you don't even hear that it happened, really.

You know what was one of the biggest demographics shifts in the 20'th century, one in the orders of BILLIONS of dollars worth of market share to care about? Car manufacturers realizing gradually post-war that women have money too. Cars were traditionally marketed pretty much only towards men, with women being just what will want to drop the panties for you, if you have a properly penis size symbol car. Now that never completely went away, especially for the sports cars, but it got dialled down massively, along with starting to have ads for women too.

But you never heard of that ####-storm, because it never happened. Nobody went out of their way to insult their male demographic to send a message about how woke they are, or anything.

And it's not even something unique. From computer games (which swung from being for everyone, to being by boys for boys, to gradually back again), manga, anime, whatever. Nobody created a ####-storm and tried to insult anyone, to signal that they're making comics for teenage girls too. Well, not unless we're talking very recently and only in the west. For the rest of the world, just a bunch of authors and editors pretty much went, "hmm, girls have disposable income too, can we sell them something?" And you probably never heard of that shift, unless you're a pretty obsessed historian of a specific field.

Meanwhile in the post-Keurig-Effect West, it turns out that you don't have to actually give a rodent's rear about a particular market segment, when you could be just creating a thoroughly fake ####-storm.

Gillette, for example, since the name came up, never actually went any more woke than the ad. That was it. They didn't reduce the "pink tax" for their products marketed to women or anything, for example. They just put out those ads, and that was it.

And to be honest, I find it even more obscene when people go "yay, corporation X is on our side, all is forgiven, we're bestest friends forever now" over just some publicity stunt, when nothing of actual substance changed, than when the reactionaries have the opposite reaction. If nothing else, the latter eventually got over it and went and bought another Keurig coffee machine, while the former seem to be forever stuck in the imaginary pocket universe where everything is getting objectively better as long as they keep reading about some guy getting angry on Twitter.

[JoeMorgue]

Wait I thought if you weren't "woke" enough you would get...... *dramatic musical crescendo* CANCELLED! and that would ruin your business?

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Darat

It isn't. The article Ziggurat linked to as his example of "go woke go broke" said the exact opposite. Them going "woke" increased their revenues and profits.

Most "going woke" is what we used to be call "marketing to your consumer base".

That's what I meant as an example - of a company making a business decision that a commentator would like to think is political, and would like to think is a bad one, when it was not.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Wait I thought if you weren't "woke" enough you would get...... *dramatic musical crescendo* CANCELLED! and that would ruin your business?

Individuals seem to suffer from the woke/broke effect, which is indeed also called cancelled, except that the words are usually connected with a political affiliation.

In trying to think of examples of woke/broke, The Dixie Chicks and Kathy Griffin came into my head. Those people each suffered significantly as a result of backlash for saying something leftist. However, those are just entertainers.


It seems someone might refuse to buy a record because of political associations, but they don't make nearly as much connection to a pair of sneakers.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Individuals seem to suffer from the woke/broke effect, which is indeed also called cancelled, except that the words are usually connected with a political affiliation.

In trying to think of examples of woke/broke, The Dixie Chicks and Kathy Griffin came into my head. Those people each suffered significantly as a result of backlash for saying something leftist. However, those are just entertainers.


It seems someone might refuse to buy a record because of political associations, but they don't make nearly as much connection to a pair of sneakers.

I think the Chicks (dropped the Dixie too) and Kathy Griffin probably did pay a price, but it does not appear, at a glance that either entity has gone broke.

What profiteth it a man....etc. Taking a hit for your belief is not the same as dying for it. If you would just get off your high horse and sell dope you too could have a new Mercedes.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Does Kathy Griffin count as going "woke"? Being anti-Trump is not woke*, and plenty of people who aren't MAGA CHUDs found the photo in general poor taste, which might account for any professional blowback she may have experienced.

*if woke is meant to mean on the bleeding edge of progressive social issues that is. Being anti-Trump is not fringe at all, it's a general view of all liberals and even some conservatives.

Not even sure if the Dixie chicks criticizing Bush counts as being "woke". Anti-war views are woke now?

Generally speaking, I always thought "wokeness" was supposed to mean racial/gender/social issues, not just a catch-all for any liberal/progressive/left point of view on any topic.

[JoeMorgue]

At the very worst the (Dixie) Chicks just had bad timing and should have waited a year or two.

But much like the "Cancel Culture" argument there doesn't seem to be anything really to say here because "You can cherry pick examples."

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Does Kathy Griffin count as going "woke"? Being anti-Trump is not woke*, and plenty of people who aren't MAGA CHUDs found the photo in general poor taste, which might account for any professional blowback she may have experienced.

*if woke is meant to mean on the bleeding edge of progressive social issues that is. Being anti-Trump is not fringe at all, it's a general view of all liberals and even some conservatives.

Not even sure if the Dixie chicks criticizing Bush counts as being "woke". Anti-war views are woke now?

Generally speaking, I always thought "wokeness" was supposed to mean racial/gender/social issues, not just a catch-all for any liberal/progressive/left point of view on any topic.

I guess I’m wondering the same thing. It seems to be selectively applied without much definition given in general usage.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

At the very worst the (Dixie) Chicks just had bad timing and should have waited a year or two.

But much like the "Cancel Culture" argument there doesn't seem to be anything really to say here because "You can cherry pick examples."

And it is tough to travel overseas and tell someone you’re from Texas, but that you are not that sort of Texan. They were a bit clumsy and their timing was off. That was compounded by their audience makeup. If some punk band or even a rock band had said the same thing it would have been nothing.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

And it is tough to travel overseas and tell someone you’re from Texas, but that you are not that sort of Texan. They were a bit clumsy and their timing was off. That was compounded by their audience makeup. If some punk band or even a rock band had said the same thing it would have been nothing.

That's really the only way I can see "go woke, go broke" actually being true.

If you're a big fish in a smaller, more conservative/reactionary pond, then betraying these principles could be a real problem. Country music stars criticizing our idiotic wars abroad during the Bush years? That's going to hurt your wallet.

For these big mega companies serving the general public, I really doubt that the right wing has the same leverage. For companies that target liberals or lefties, intentionally antagonizing these freaks is probably a boost for their brand.

Gillette is not in any risk of "going broke" for talking about toxic masculinity or whatever other empty token gestures they want to do to drum up controversy, but a Christian bookstore would probably be wise not to alienate their entire consumer base.

[JoeMorgue]

It's hard to go back and try to prove "popularity" but I seem to remember the (Dixie) Chicks, while still fairly popular, kind of already being on the way out of the country music scene, which had rapidly (for the worse but that's my opinion) changed post-911.

[JoeMorgue]

And hell the album released right after the statement about Bush that supposedly "ruined" them... went to #1 on the Billboard Country Charts and stayed there 12 weeks, went 6x Platinum, had 3 top ten singles, and won 5 Grammys including Best Album.

If that's going broke sign me up.

What happened was a handful of radio stations, and broadcast radio was already the print newspaper of music by that point, made a big showy deal of not playing their music to people who already weren't listening to it.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

That's really the only way I can see "go woke, go broke" actually being true.

If you're a big fish in a smaller, more conservative/reactionary pond, then betraying these principles could be a real problem. Country music stars criticizing our idiotic wars abroad during the Bush years? That's going to hurt your wallet.

For these big mega companies serving the general public, I really doubt that the right wing has the same leverage. For companies that target liberals or lefties, intentionally antagonizing these freaks is probably a boost for their brand.

Gillette is not in any risk of "going broke" for talking about toxic masculinity or whatever other empty token gestures they want to do to drum up controversy, but a Christian bookstore would probably be wise not to alienate their entire consumer base.

That’s why Carhartt is interesting. Very much a blue collar brand with some recent hipster success. But I have to imagine 70% of their sales volume is to counties Trump won. Hard to tell since they are privately held.

But they framed it as a worker safety issue and said worker safety is a core value for the company. I mean I do feel safer on my lawn tractor when I’m wearing my Carhartt. So I can’t say they are wrong.

[SuburbanTurkey]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

That’s why Carhartt is interesting. Very much a blue collar brand with some recent hipster success. But I have to imagine 70% of their sales volume is to counties Trump won. Hard to tell since they are privately held.

But they framed it as a worker safety issue and said worker safety is a core value for the company. I mean I do feel safer on my lawn tractor when I’m wearing my Carhartt. So I can’t say they are wrong.

I wonder how much of their sales is to people who buy their products because of their reputation for sturdy construction that can survive the long term abuse of many manual jobs, and how many of them buy it because they LARP as blue collar workers. I could definitely see the latter souring on the brand.

ETA: Workwear as a style choice is an odd phenomena.