Split Thread: Is Ukraine to blame for Putin's invasion

[Michel H]

Arnold Schwarzenegger's message (its text may be found here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...essage/627100/) was fairly good.

But it does contain some approximations and inaccuracies. Perhaps he has been told lies himself. If he was still in Germany, he could not read the Russian information website RT.com (without a VPN) because of European censorship. Having just one source of information is not ideal.

If he gets his information from forums, then he might get a distorted view because of censorship done by "moderators" who have a political agenda.

He said:

Quote:

I know that your government has told you this is a war to de-Nazify Ukraine. This is not true. De-Nazify Ukraine? It is a country with a Jewish president—a Jewish president, I might add, whose father’s three brothers were all murdered by the Nazis. Ukraine did not start this war. Neither did nationalists or Nazis. Those in power in the Kremlin started this civil war; this is not the Russian people’s war.
...
To President Putin, I say: You started this war. You’re leading this war. You can stop this war now.

So he said that "Ukraine did not start this war". But is this true? (or only half-true)

A reminder of a few facts:

Quote:

Ukraine cut off the fresh water supply to Crimea by damming a canal that had supplied 85% of the peninsula's needs before Moscow annexed Crimea in 2014.

(https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ia-2022-02-26/)
(possible crime against humanity by Ukraine)


About sanctions imposed on Russia before 2022:

Quote:

... sanctions have hit the Russian economy badly. Since 2014, it has grown by an average of 0.3 percent per year, while the global average was 2.3 percent per year. They have slashed foreign credits and foreign direct investment, and may have reduced Russia’s economic growth by 2.5–3 percent a year; that is, about $50 billion per year. The Russian economy is not likely to grow significantly again until the Kremlin has persuaded the West to ease the sanctions.
...
As part of the two last defense bills, the US Congress adopted severe sanctions on suppliers to Nord Stream 2, the Russian gas pipeline from Russia to Germany through the Baltic Sea, which are likely to stop the completion of that pipeline.

The United States and the EU responded to the Russian annexation of Crimea with sanctions against Russian officials, individuals, and enterprises held responsible for the annexation, as well as anybody pursuing business dealings with Crimea. They were joined by several allies, such as Australia, Canada, and Norway. Ideally, these sanctions would have compelled Russia to withdraw from Crimea, but nobody believed that would happen in the near term. Their impact was limited to Crimea, and did not harm the Russian economy. Instead, the more realistic goal of the Western sanctions on Russia’s annexation of Crimea, understood within the Barack Obama administration, was to persistently isolate Crimea economically and politically, and that goal has been accomplished. Crimea’s foreign trade plummeted by 90 percent. Housing prices slumped, while prices of goods and services rose because of supply problems. Annual tourism shrunk, and now comes almost entirely from Russia. The biggest Russian state banks, Sberbank and VTB, have stayed away to avoid the US and EU sanctions. Instead, the already sanctioned Bank Rossiya, owned by friends of Putin from St. Petersburg, and a few minor Russian state banks, notably the Russian National Commercial Bank, operate there.42 The prominent Russian economist Sergey Aleksashenko assesses that Russian financial support to Crimea has so far cost about $5 billion per year.

(https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-d...ons-on-russia/, date: May 3, 2021, before the Russian invasion of Ukraine)

So Ukraine (with its Western allies) waged a humanitarian and economic war on Russia in 2014, after its annexation of Crimea, even though it is well known that Crimeans wanted to join Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls).

In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ...

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Michel H

Arnold Schwarzenegger's message (its text may be found here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...essage/627100/) was fairly good.

But it does contain some approximations and inaccuracies. Perhaps he has been told lies himself. If he was still in Germany, he could not read the Russian information website RT.com (without a VPN) because of European censorship. Having just one source of information is not ideal.

If he gets his information from forums, then he might get a distorted view because of censorship done by "moderators" who have a political agenda.

He said:


So he said that "Ukraine did not start this war". But is this true? (or only half-true)

A reminder of a few facts:


(https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ia-2022-02-26/)
(possible crime against humanity by Ukraine)


About sanctions imposed on Russia before 2022:

(https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-d...ons-on-russia/, date: May 3, 2021, before the Russian invasion of Ukraine)

So Ukraine (with its Western allies) waged a humanitarian and economic war on Russia in 2014, after its annexation of Crimea, even though it is well known that Crimeans wanted to join Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls).

In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ...

Still pushing the Putin BS line, I see.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by Michel H

Arnold Schwarzenegger's message (its text may be found here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...essage/627100/) was fairly good.

But it does contain some approximations and inaccuracies. Perhaps he has been told lies himself. If he was still in Germany, he could not read the Russian information website RT.com (without a VPN) because of European censorship. Having just one source of information is not ideal.

If he gets his information from forums, then he might get a distorted view because of censorship done by "moderators" who have a political agenda.

He said:


So he said that "Ukraine did not start this war". But is this true? (or only half-true)

A reminder of a few facts:


(https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ia-2022-02-26/)
(possible crime against humanity by Ukraine)


About sanctions imposed on Russia before 2022:

(https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-d...ons-on-russia/, date: May 3, 2021, before the Russian invasion of Ukraine)

So Ukraine (with its Western allies) waged a humanitarian and economic war on Russia in 2014, after its annexation of Crimea, even though it is well known that Crimeans wanted to join Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls).

In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ...

Did or did not Russia sign a Treaty with Ukraine stating to respect it's borders if it Gave it's Nuclear Weapons to Russia?
Didn't Russia Attack Crimea first?
Were not the polls and referendums conducted after Russia gained control?
We Know Russia invaded Crimea only too Protect the Port that is the only deep water port in the Black Sea, it had nothing to do with what the people Wanted or didn't want, it was a Millitary decision not a political one!

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw

Did or did not Russia sign a Treaty with Ukraine stating to respect it's borders if it Gave it's Nuclear Weapons to Russia?
Didn't Russia Attack Crimea first?
Were not the polls and referendums conducted after Russia gained control?
We Know Russia invaded Crimea only too Protect the Port that is the only deep water port in the Black Sea, it had nothing to do with what the people Wanted or didn't want, it was a Millitary decision not a political one!

It doesn't count because only Pooty-woots's feelings count and he would so have got away with it if it wasn't for those Ukrainian and Western bastards who just don't care about Pooty-woots.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Still pushing the Putin BS line, I see.

I Always thought It was the American GQP Line, did I miss somethiing?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

It doesn't count because only Pooty-woots's feelings count and he would so have got away with it if it wasn't for those Ukrainian and Western bastards who just don't care about Pooty-woots.

I know, I just sent the Ukrainians some Aluminum foil, with instructions on how to use it too stop a tank.

[Jimbo07]

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw

American GQP Line, did I miss somethiing?

Yes, an O

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Still pushing the Putin BS line, I see.

No, not at all.

In these conflicts, often, you don't have black and white situations, where one side is completely wrong and evil, while the other side is completely pure and angelic.

In this case, I believe Putin should withdraw its military forces from Ukraine, while Ukraine should accept that Crimea is Russian, that both Donbass republics are independent and should promise to not join NATO for at least five years (and longer if relations with Russia improve).

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me Ukraine should work on improving its relations with Russia, which is an important supplier of hydrocarbons.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw

I Always thought It was the American GQP Line, did I miss somethiing?

Very likely, yes.

[I Am The Scum]

Originally Posted by Michel H

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me Ukraine should work on improving its relations with Russia

Should Ukraine stop burning the roast, as well?

[JoeMorgue]

I remember a time when "The illegal aggressor shouldn't get to dictate terms or profit from their aggression" was something nobody argued against (and nobody said "Nobody is arguing against that, now sit there while I argue against it").

But again yes Ukraine should promise to not burn the roast in the future so Russia will stop beating it in front of the children.

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Originally Posted by Michel H

No, not at all.

In these conflicts, often, you don't have black and white situations, where one side is completely wrong and evil, while the other side is completely pure and angelic.

In this case, I believe Putin should withdraw its military forces from Ukraine, while Ukraine should accept that Crimea is Russian, that both Donbass republics are independent and should promise to not join NATO for at least five years (and longer if relations with Russia improve).

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me Ukraine should work on improving its relations with Russia, which is an important supplier of hydrocarbons.

Just give the dictator everything he wants, then beg for his forgiveness for daring to fight back. Oh and give up your army too.
Your infatuation with fascism is worrying.

[JoeMorgue]

No what is worrying is that this is another thread were one person is just outright saying something, and about a dozen others are saying with the thinnest sheen of plausible deniability over it and for some reason that makes a difference.

Most of the discourse here is "Give Putin what he wants." It's not just coming from one person.

[dasmiller]

Originally Posted by Michel H

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me Ukraine should work on improving its relations with Russia, which is an important supplier of hydrocarbons.

So rude of those warmongering Ukrainians to interfere with the innocent Russian artillery that's peacefully shelling Ukrainian cities.

[llwyd]

Originally Posted by Michel H

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me Ukraine should work on improving its relations with Russia, which is an important supplier of hydrocarbons.

I think I have now seen it all Yeah, one would say pretty hard...

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by Michel H

So he said that "Ukraine did not start this war". But is this true? (or only half-true)

Yes. Yes it is true. Ukraine didn't start the war.

Quote:

So Ukraine (with its Western allies) waged a humanitarian and economic war on Russia in 2014, after its annexation of Crimea, even though it is well known that Crimeans wanted to join Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls).

Illegally I might add. Firstly, this referendum took place after Russian troops had taken control of Crimea. Secondly, and rather interestingly, according to the Venice Commission the annexation of Crimea is a violation of both international law, Ukrainian law, and Russian law. Basically because of various laws and treaties signed between Russia and Ukraine, the exchange of land can only happen by agreement between Russia and Ukraine, not Russia and Crimea. Especially since the declaration of independence was illegal under Ukrainian and Crimean law.

Quote:

In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ...

Again, those declarations of independence were illegal under Ukrainian law.


Considering your view on self-determination and declaring independence, do you consider Russia to have illegally taken control of Chechnya since they had declared independence in 1991?

[llwyd]

Originally Posted by llwyd

I think I have now seen it all Yeah, one would say pretty hard...

Okay, what the hell, I'll give it a go:

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me that Jews should work on improving their relations with Naxi-Germany, which is an important supplier of sauerkraut.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Michel H

No, not at all.

In these conflicts, often, you don't have black and white situations, where one side is completely wrong and evil, while the other side is completely pure and angelic.

In this case, I believe Putin should withdraw its military forces from Ukraine, while Ukraine should accept that Crimea is Russian, that both Donbass republics are independent and should promise to not join NATO for at least five years (and longer if relations with Russia improve).

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me Ukraine should work on improving its relations with Russia, which is an important supplier of hydrocarbons.

Russia only got away with Crimea because the West fell for its claim that the Ukrainian fighters were neo-nazis. There were some gestures towards 'sanctions' as you mention but now western leaders are saying they wish they had taken firmer action against Russia in 2014. As for playing the 'Russian minority' and 'nazi' card, Russia beat the Germans to anti-Semitism a couple of centuries earlier by expelling Jews from the St Petersburg region and thus setting up the notorious fenced off shtetl ghettos, in the first place, in the shape of the overfed Catherine the Great.

Quite frankly if you lived next door to the monster that was Russia/Soviet Union you would want to be a resistance fighter, too.

[BobTheCoward]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Russia only got away with Crimea because the West fell for its claim that the Ukrainian fighters were neo-nazis.

A sizeable chunk is

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by Michel H

In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ...

How strange that you forgot to mention that Russian soldiers first invaded Ukraine and then installed Russian puppet leaders who subsequently "declared independence". A small insignificant detail to some i guess.

[Arcade22]

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

A sizeable chunk is

How many?

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Michel H

So he said that "Ukraine did not start this war". But is this true? (or only half-true)

Yes, it's 100% true, Ukraine did not start this war.

[llwyd]

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

A sizeable chunk is

What proportion, do you know? Mostly I have heard about the Azov batallion (with their variously dubious disclaimers) but that doesn't seem awfully many - especially as in comparison with Russia which as a state is pretty completely fascist and many elements of the Wagner group for example rather clearly neo-nazis to boot.

[llwyd]

Originally Posted by The Don

Yes, it's 100% true, Ukraine did not start this war.

Yeah, they even delayed their mobilization to pretty much the moment of the attack to avoid "provoking" Russia.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw

Did or did not Russia sign a Treaty with Ukraine stating to respect it's borders if it Gave it's Nuclear Weapons to Russia?

In 1994, Russia agreed to sign the Budapest Memorandum (in relation to Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons), which said:

Quote:

The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclea...est_Memorandum)

It is understandable that Russia, the UK and US have signed such a document to reward Ukraine after it decided to become a non-nuclear state, but I don't think this should mean that borders can never evolve, and that Crimeans should kind of remain forever in a kind of "Ukrainian jail" that they dislike.

To those who say that Russia should not be rewarded for its agression, I reply that one may argue that it was in fact Ukraine and its allies who attacked first (read carefully post #2439). Besides, there are perhaps more urgent issues now that "punishing" some countries.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by The Don

Yes, it's 100% true, Ukraine did not start this war.

This war was in the plans under Trump, that's the reason Putin Installed him.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Michel H

In 1994, Russia agreed to sign the Budapest Memorandum (in relation to Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons), which said:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclea...est_Memorandum)

It is understandable that Russia, the UK and US have signed such a document to reward Ukraine after it decided to become a non-nuclear state, but I don't think this should mean that borders can never evolve, and that Crimeans should kind of remain forever in a kind of "Ukrainian jail" that they dislike.

Of course not

Have you forgotten that the Crimea was annexed by Russia ?

Originally Posted by Michel H

To those who say that Russia should not be rewarded for its agression, I reply that one may argue that it was in fact Ukraine and its allies who attacked first (read carefully post #2439). Besides, there are perhaps more urgent issues now that "punishing" some countries.

Utter garbage.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by Michel H

In 1994, Russia agreed to sign the Budapest Memorandum (in relation to Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons), which said:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclea...est_Memorandum)

It is understandable that Russia, the UK and US have signed such a document to reward Ukraine after it decided to become a non-nuclear state, but I don't think this should mean that borders can never evolve, and that Crimeans should kind of remain forever in a kind of "Ukrainian jail" that they dislike.

To those who say that Russia should not be rewarded for its agression, I reply that one may argue that it was in fact Ukraine and its allies who attacked first (read carefully post #2439). Besides, there are perhaps more urgent issues now that "punishing" some countries.

Did Russia pay the water bill for Ukrainians water?
You left out the part Russia refused to pay for the water.
If I don't pay my water bill I have no water.

[dasmiller]

Originally Posted by Michel H

In 1994, Russia agreed to sign the Budapest Memorandum (in relation to Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons), which said:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclea...est_Memorandum)

It is understandable that Russia, the UK and US have signed such a document to reward Ukraine after it decided to become a non-nuclear state, but I don't think this should mean that borders can never evolve, ...

Are you seriously suggesting that Russian's invasion of Ukraine, with the express intent of incorporating parts of Ukraine into Russia, does not violate the treaty in which Russia agreed to respect Ukraine's borders?

Breathtaking.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by dasmiller

Are you seriously suggesting that Russian's invasion of Ukraine, with the express intent of incorporating parts of Ukraine into Russia, does not violate the treaty in which Russia agreed to respect Ukraine's borders?

Breathtaking.

You ought to go to the History section here and see Michael H blame Poland for starting World War 2.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Arcade22

How strange that you forgot to mention that Russian soldiers first invaded Ukraine and then installed Russian puppet leaders who subsequently "declared independence". A small insignificant detail to some i guess.

I think this is fairly insignificant indeed, because, in this case, the arrival of some Russian troops was probably welcomed by most of the local population.

Trying to achieve a political system that reflects what people like best (while respecting some basic principles, like pacifism when possible, or respect for the environment) should always be a major goal of politicians, more than respecting the letter of an old treaty, in my opinion (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination).

[I Am The Scum]

Originally Posted by dasmiller

Are you seriously suggesting that Russian's invasion of Ukraine, with the express intent of incorporating parts of Ukraine into Russia, does not violate the treaty in which Russia agreed to respect Ukraine's borders?

Breathtaking.

Fascism requires one to live in a world of contradictions. It's how Nazis can believe that Jews are simultaneously weak, subhuman vermin that also are extremely powerful and actually control everything.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by dasmiller

Are you seriously suggesting that Russian's invasion of Ukraine, with the express intent of incorporating parts of Ukraine into Russia, does not violate the treaty in which Russia agreed to respect Ukraine's borders?

Breathtaking.

I believe that the Russian annexation of Crimea did violate the letter of this treaty, but that this is not very important (kind of a detail thing, compared with what is at stake now).

[llwyd]

Originally Posted by dudalb

You ought to go to the History section here and see Michael H blame Poland for starting World War 2.

Really? Okay, well, good for him, I'm sure.

[dasmiller]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I believe that the Russian annexation of Crimea did violate the letter of this treaty, but that this is not very important (kind of a detail thing, compared with what is at stake now).

I see. Do you think the other signatories would agree?

Also, are you sure you understand what treaties are for?

[llwyd]

Originally Posted by dasmiller

Also, are you sure you understand what treaties are for?

Well, based on these couple of last pages, no, he doesn't. I have no idea what his agenda is, but he doesn't deal in empirical facts and it's pretty pointless to debate these fantasies.

[I Am The Scum]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Maybe if Ukraine let's innocent ole' Russia harvest the organs of the dead to sell on the black market that will work on "improving relations with Russia."

The organs of the dead, but not the living? You're practically begging for another invasion.

[erlando]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I think this is fairly insignificant indeed, because, in this case, the arrival of some Russian troops was probably welcomed by most of the local population.

Sure... And Ukranians welcomed Russian troops with open arms on Feb 24, right?

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Originally Posted by erlando

Sure... And Ukranians welcomed Russian troops with open arms on Feb 24, right?

Of course, just ask anyone interviewed by the Russian media with a soldier guarding their relatives.

[Armitage72]

Originally Posted by llwyd

What proportion, do you know? Mostly I have heard about the Azov batallion (with their variously dubious disclaimers) but that doesn't seem awfully many - especially as in comparison with Russia which as a state is pretty completely fascist and many elements of the Wagner group for example rather clearly neo-nazis to boot.

According to Russia, just about every civilian building they've blown up in Mariupol has actually been an Azov headquarters, so they must be a huge organization. They wouldn't lie about that, after all.