IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags arnold schwarzenegger , Russia-Ukraine relations , Russia-Ukraine war , Ukraine conspiracies , vladimir putin , Volodymyr Zelenskiy

Reply
Old 18th March 2022, 10:26 AM   #41
BobTheCoward
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
What proportion, do you know? Mostly I have heard about the Azov batallion (with their variously dubious disclaimers) but that doesn't seem awfully many - especially as in comparison with Russia which as a state is pretty completely fascist and many elements of the Wagner group for example rather clearly neo-nazis to boot.
For a number that should be near zero, Azov battalion would count as fairly large.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2022, 10:30 AM   #42
ginjawarrior
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 312
Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
What proportion, do you know? Mostly I have heard about the Azov batallion (with their variously dubious disclaimers) but that doesn't seem awfully many - especially as in comparison with Russia which as a state is pretty completely fascist and many elements of the Wagner group for example rather clearly neo-nazis to boot.
It's about .5% of the armed forces with zero representatives in the Ukrainian government


https://youtu.be/aoGFfr1ahGQ

A short but good take on this
ginjawarrior is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2022, 10:47 AM   #43
crescent
Philosopher
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,326
Azov has about 900 people - or at least it did before the recent fighting started. Or maybe it was 2500. Numbers vary.

They (Azov) claim that about 10-20% of its members hold Nazi-ish beliefs.

Ukraine had (before fighting started) about 200,000 people in its armed forces. So Azov made up somewhere around 1% of the pre-war Ukrainian military (at the most). With it's reserves activated, Ukraine probably now has at least 400,000 people on active duty now. There was also "Right-Sector" battalion, but they seem to have been folded into Azov (which may account for the higher number in the one estimate).

These groups have political parties that poll around 2.5% of the vote in the most recent elections.

I've never seen any photos of any of the Azov people with any of the Ukrainian Presidents or Prime Ministers.

By contrast, the Russian Nazi Group is called Wagner Group. The most recent size estimate is 6,000. It's leader, Dmitry Utkin, has an SS uniform tattooed on his body. That's not crazy at all. He has been in photo ops with Vladimir Putin.

In light of the failure of Russia's "de-Nazification" campaign, Russia will soon be sending in it's own Nazis - which again, is a much larger force than the Ukrainian Nazi group. Russia will use its Nazi group to try to kill or capture the Jewish guy who's grandfather barely survived the holocaust, and Russia will refer to this as "de-Nazification". Because that's how Russia rolls.

Last edited by crescent; 18th March 2022 at 11:43 AM.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2022, 10:48 AM   #44
llwyd
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 1,133
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
For a number that should be near zero, Azov battalion would count as fairly large.
I don't know, even in our close to ideal Nordic paradise there are neo-nazis - not to talk about a corrupt, semi-failed state like the US... I think Ukraine is pretty fine with their Jewish president as far as nazism is concerned.
llwyd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2022, 12:02 PM   #45
BobTheCoward
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
I don't know, even in our close to ideal Nordic paradise there are neo-nazis - not to talk about a corrupt, semi-failed state like the US... I think Ukraine is pretty fine with their Jewish president as far as nazism is concerned.
US does not have a Nazi problem....it is much closer to Iranian theocracy.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2022, 12:30 PM   #46
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 19,554
When the Soviets cut off supply to Berlin, the West supplied it from the air.
If Crimea had really been cut off by Ukraine, it could easily have been supplied by sea or air.
Anyone who thinks this is a reason for war just wants tot have a war.
__________________
"The only true paradise is paradise lost"
Marcel Proust
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2022, 12:57 PM   #47
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 36,404
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
US does not have a Nazi problem....it is much closer to Iranian theocracy.
Unfortunately, the US appears to have both problems. White Nationalists who are also Christian nut-jobs.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2022, 01:54 PM   #48
BobTheCoward
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 22,789
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Unfortunately, the US appears to have both problems. White Nationalists who are also Christian nut-jobs.
White nationalists are not always Nazis.

Let's not make the beautiful cornucopia of nationalism only one vegetable
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2022, 02:32 PM   #49
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 23,134
So Ukraine is to blame for not rolling over and giving Putin everything he demands

Got it!
__________________
What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2022, 04:27 PM   #50
MBDK
Muse
 
MBDK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 569
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So Ukraine is to blame for not rolling over and giving Putin everything he demands

Got it!
Winner, winner. Putin's chicken dinner!
MBDK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2022, 06:30 PM   #51
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 6,094
From a Facebook group

Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2022, 07:10 PM   #52
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,388
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Arnold Schwarzenegger's message (its text may be found here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...essage/627100/) was fairly good.

But it does contain some approximations and inaccuracies. Perhaps he has been told lies himself. If he was still in Germany, he could not read the Russian information website RT.com (without a VPN) because of European censorship. Having just one source of information is not ideal....
Ok, others have utterly demolished your Putin propaganda already, but can I point out something here?

Why would Arnie be in Germany? Heís Austrian by birth and an dual citizenship that nation and America. Heís wearing the flag of California on his sleeve for crying out loud!
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <-
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2022, 09:42 PM   #53
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,781
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
Arnold Schwarzenegger's message (its text may be found here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...essage/627100/) was fairly good.

But it does contain some approximations and inaccuracies. Perhaps he has been told lies himself. If he was still in Germany, he could not read the Russian information website RT.com (without a VPN) because of European censorship. Having just one source of information is not ideal.

If he gets his information from forums, then he might get a distorted view because of censorship done by "moderators" who have a political agenda.

He said:


So he said that "Ukraine did not start this war". But is this true? (or only half-true)

A reminder of a few facts:


(https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ia-2022-02-26/)
(possible crime against humanity by Ukraine)


About sanctions imposed on Russia before 2022:

(https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-d...ons-on-russia/, date: May 3, 2021, before the Russian invasion of Ukraine)

So Ukraine (with its Western allies) waged a humanitarian and economic war on Russia in 2014, after its annexation of Crimea, even though it is well known that Crimeans wanted to join Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls).

In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ...
I saw something really funny on the the news. The Ukrainians hit a convoy of Spetznaz. They destroyed or captured all the vehicles. The Russians who couldn't escape surrendered or died. Funny stuff. Make Ukraine beautiful, kill a Russian soldier.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2022, 09:47 PM   #54
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 26,781
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
In 1994, Russia agreed to sign the Budapest Memorandum (in relation to Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons), which said:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclea...est_Memorandum)

It is understandable that Russia, the UK and US have signed such a document to reward Ukraine after it decided to become a non-nuclear state, but I don't think this should mean that borders can never evolve, and that Crimeans should kind of remain forever in a kind of "Ukrainian jail" that they dislike.

To those who say that Russia should not be rewarded for its agression, I reply that one may argue that it was in fact Ukraine and its allies who attacked first (read carefully post #2439). Besides, there are perhaps more urgent issues now that "punishing" some countries.
I like my borsch dressed with sour cream. Putin might be trying it dressed with his own brains. Russians have a way of dealing with leaders who get them into unpopular wars and economic collapse.
__________________
Fight like a Ukrainian.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 07:25 AM   #55
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 28,125
Quote:
Is Ukraine to blame for Putin's invasion
No, don't be silly.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 07:46 AM   #56
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 29,273
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
No, don't be silly.
To be fair, that was my title, paraphrasing what posts I split from the thread discussing the actual war in Ukraine.

I think it is a fair paraphrase of the positions though.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 08:22 AM   #57
Gaetan
Illuminator
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,673
Biden and Trudeau promised Ukrainians money and wealth to join NATO and they got what they were promised, billions.
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 09:31 AM   #58
Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 6,367
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Biden and Trudeau promised Ukrainians money and wealth to join NATO and they got what they were promised, billions.
Ukraine hasn't joined NATO.
__________________
'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt

Cosmic Yak on this forum.
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 09:42 AM   #59
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 8,316
Of course! Why didn't we see it?

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Biden and Trudeau promised Ukrainians money and wealth to join NATO and they got what they were promised, billions.
Trudeau is the mastermind! Trudeau, Fidel Castro's by-blow! Trudeau, the puppeteer! He lurks in the shadows of Canadia -- my God, just across the river from ME!!

Don't you see the fiendish simplicity of it? Or the fiendish complexity? Oh, it's all so confusing!

I've got one of my headaches, Gaetan. Make it go away. Tell us much, much more about Trudeau and the 'Kranians.
__________________
If you would learn a man's character, give him authority.

If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 10:42 AM   #60
Gaetan
Illuminator
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,673
There is a saying that goes: If you want peace, prepare for war, except that the neighboring enemy thought you were preparing for war too much and decided to act before the threat was too great. If you want peace, that proves that it's not by arming yourself more and more that you're going to get it. The Russians will be forced to capture all the weapons sent by NATO to Ukraine and destroy the whole country to do so if they do not reach a voluntary disarmament agreement.
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 11:41 AM   #61
gabeygoat
Graduate Poster
 
gabeygoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Hard Corvallis Oregon
Posts: 1,686
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There is a saying that goes: If you want peace, prepare for war, except that the neighboring enemy thought you were preparing for war too much and decided to act before the threat was too great. If you want peace, that proves that it's not by arming yourself more and more that you're going to get it. The Russians will be forced to capture all the weapons sent by NATO to Ukraine and destroy the whole country to do so if they do not reach a voluntary disarmament agreement.
Thatís a long saying
__________________
"May I interest you in some coconut milk?" ~Akhenaten Wallabe Esq
gabeygoat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 11:51 AM   #62
Axxman300
Philosopher
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 6,556
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There is a saying that goes: If you want peace, prepare for war, except that the neighboring enemy thought you were preparing for war too much and decided to act before the threat was too great. If you want peace, that proves that it's not by arming yourself more and more that you're going to get it. The Russians will be forced to capture all the weapons sent by NATO to Ukraine and destroy the whole country to do so if they do not reach a voluntary disarmament agreement.
Aw. Poor Russia.

They invade a country that was never a threat to them. They murder women and children. They expose their military as nothing more than a glorified banana republic tap-dancing crew. And once again they have made themselves a pariah in the world. Three years ago, NATO was close to being an afterthought, but thanks to Putin, everyone wants to join up. There was a time when the world feared the Russian military threat, now the world laughs.

They just can't catch a break.

And the clock is now ticking on Putin.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 11:54 AM   #63
JesseCuster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,867
Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
Thatís a long saying
It's also a weirdly specific saying in that it cites Russia, Ukraine, NATO, voluntary disarmament agreements.

For a saying, it's not particularly memorable or pithy.
JesseCuster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 12:07 PM   #64
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 29,273
Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
It's also a weirdly specific saying in that it cites Russia, Ukraine, NATO, voluntary disarmament agreements.

For a saying, it's not particularly memorable or pithy.
Or correct
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 12:14 PM   #65
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 63,611
It's like the pixie of key of geopolitics.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 12:17 PM   #66
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 36,023
Was Belgium to blame for Germany invading it in 1914 and 1940? At least as much as Ukraine is to blame for the current mess.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 12:20 PM   #67
Gaetan
Illuminator
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,673
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Aw. Poor Russia.

They invade a country that was never a threat to them.
This is not true
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 12:27 PM   #68
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 23,134
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Aw. Poor Russia.

They invade a country that was never a threat to them. They murder women and children. They expose their military as nothing more than a glorified banana republic tap-dancing crew. And once again they have made themselves a pariah in the world. Three years ago, NATO was close to being an afterthought, but thanks to Putin, everyone wants to join up. There was a time when the world feared the Russian military threat, now the world laughs.

They just can't catch a break.

And the clock is now ticking on Putin.
For me, this has been the most surprising thing.

They really had most of the world fooled didn't they? Everyone thought the Russian military was an elite, well trained, powerfully armed outfit. Turns out they are nothing of the sort... they have had to resort to shelling and bombing civilians and blowing up children's hospitals because their troops are stalled. Its been almost a month and they have not been able to establish anything remotely close to air superiority against an opponent whose air force is, at least on paper, much weaker then theirs. The Russians are getting their arses kicked - over 7,500 soldiers killed in four weeks as well as an estimated 14,000 to 21,000 other casualties. Four of the Russian army's top leaders have also been killed in the fighting; Major Generals Vitaly Gerasimov, Andrei Kolesnikov, Andrei Sukhovetsky and Oleg Mityaev.
__________________
What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

Last edited by smartcooky; 19th March 2022 at 12:39 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 12:28 PM   #69
JesseCuster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,867
sun-tzu-0025.jpg
JesseCuster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 12:41 PM   #70
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 23,134
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
This is not true
Bollocks! Ukraine was never any kind of threat to Russia... but it might be now!
__________________
What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 12:42 PM   #71
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 23,134
Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
Russia, Ukraine and NATO didn't exist in Sun Tzu's time

Besides, none of it originates with Sun Tzu. In its original form, it was "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (They who wish for peace, should prepare for war), a quote from the book "Epitoma Rei Militaris" (The Essence of Military Affairs) by the Roman general Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus
__________________
What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

Last edited by smartcooky; 19th March 2022 at 12:50 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 12:44 PM   #72
Gaetan
Illuminator
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,673
The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't the Ukrainians let the Russians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Ukraine and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Putin.
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 12:46 PM   #73
JesseCuster
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,867
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Why didn't the Ukrainians let the Russians invade their country?
They say there's no such thing as a stupid question, but...
JesseCuster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 12:55 PM   #74
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 23,134
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't the Ukrainians let the Russians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Ukraine and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Putin.

The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't Great Britain let Nazi Germany invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Great Britain and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Hitler.
__________________
What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 01:04 PM   #75
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 28,125
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Was Belgium to blame for Germany invading it in 1914 and 1940? At least as much as Ukraine is to blame for the current mess.
One of our resident Neo-Nazis said so.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 01:30 PM   #76
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 33,724
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them.
So Russia, which has far more weapons than Ukraine, is not therefore interested in peace. That seems fair enough.

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 01:36 PM   #77
Gaetan
Illuminator
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,673
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't Great Britain let Nazi Germany invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Great Britain and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Hitler.
If the countries would have been disarmed, no doubt Hitler would not have been elected and there would have been no war, it is useless to arm ourselves and go to war if our neighbors are not a threat to us.
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 01:54 PM   #78
MBDK
Muse
 
MBDK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 569
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
There is a saying that goes: If you want peace, prepare for war, except that the neighboring enemy thought you were preparing for war too much and decided to act before the threat was too great. If you want peace, that proves that it's not by arming yourself more and more that you're going to get it. The Russians will be forced to capture all the weapons sent by NATO to Ukraine and destroy the whole country to do so if they do not reach a voluntary disarmament agreement.
I have a saying that is actually true:

"True evil blames it's crimes on their victims."
MBDK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 01:59 PM   #79
MBDK
Muse
 
MBDK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 569
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post

<snip of previous bollocks>

it is useless to arm ourselves and go to war if our neighbors are not a threat to us.
Not if you want what they have. You know, like Russia is doing to the Ukraine.

What is truly useless is your tongue-bathing of Putin's boots, as he actually despises you.
MBDK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2022, 02:07 PM   #80
Gaetan
Illuminator
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,673
Originally Posted by MBDK View Post
I have a saying that is actually true:

"True evil blames it's crimes on their victims."
True but the victims of the devil have nothing to reproach themselves for when this is not the case in this case
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:33 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.