[Split Thread] Is Ukraine to blame for Putin's invasion - Page 2

BobTheCoward · 18th March 2022, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by llwyd

What proportion, do you know? Mostly I have heard about the Azov batallion (with their variously dubious disclaimers) but that doesn't seem awfully many - especially as in comparison with Russia which as a state is pretty completely fascist and many elements of the Wagner group for example rather clearly neo-nazis to boot.

For a number that should be near zero, Azov battalion would count as fairly large.

ginjawarrior · 18th March 2022, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by llwyd

What proportion, do you know? Mostly I have heard about the Azov batallion (with their variously dubious disclaimers) but that doesn't seem awfully many - especially as in comparison with Russia which as a state is pretty completely fascist and many elements of the Wagner group for example rather clearly neo-nazis to boot.

It's about .5% of the armed forces with zero representatives in the Ukrainian government

https://youtu.be/aoGFfr1ahGQ

A short but good take on this

crescent · 18th March 2022, 10:47 AM

Azov has about 900 people - or at least it did before the recent fighting started. Or maybe it was 2500. Numbers vary.

They (Azov) claim that about 10-20% of its members hold Nazi-ish beliefs.

Ukraine had (before fighting started) about 200,000 people in its armed forces. So Azov made up somewhere around 1% of the pre-war Ukrainian military (at the most). With it's reserves activated, Ukraine probably now has at least 400,000 people on active duty now. There was also "Right-Sector" battalion, but they seem to have been folded into Azov (which may account for the higher number in the one estimate).

These groups have political parties that poll around 2.5% of the vote in the most recent elections.

I've never seen any photos of any of the Azov people with any of the Ukrainian Presidents or Prime Ministers.

By contrast, the Russian Nazi Group is called Wagner Group. The most recent size estimate is 6,000. It's leader, Dmitry Utkin, has an SS uniform tattooed on his body.

That's not crazy at all.

He has been in photo ops with Vladimir Putin.

In light of the failure of Russia's "de-Nazification" campaign, Russia will soon be sending in it's own Nazis - which again, is a much larger force than the Ukrainian Nazi group. Russia will use its Nazi group to try to kill or capture the Jewish guy who's grandfather barely survived the holocaust, and Russia will refer to this as "de-Nazification". Because that's how Russia rolls.

llwyd · 18th March 2022, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

For a number that should be near zero, Azov battalion would count as fairly large.

I don't know, even in our close to ideal Nordic paradise there are neo-nazis - not to talk about a corrupt, semi-failed state like the US... I think Ukraine is pretty fine with their Jewish president as far as nazism is concerned.

BobTheCoward · 18th March 2022, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by llwyd

I don't know, even in our close to ideal Nordic paradise there are neo-nazis - not to talk about a corrupt, semi-failed state like the US... I think Ukraine is pretty fine with their Jewish president as far as nazism is concerned.

US does not have a Nazi problem....it is much closer to Iranian theocracy.

The Great Zaganza · 18th March 2022, 12:30 PM

When the Soviets cut off supply to Berlin, the West supplied it from the air.
If Crimea had really been cut off by Ukraine, it could easily have been supplied by sea or air.
Anyone who thinks this is a reason for war just wants tot have a war.

The Don · 18th March 2022, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

US does not have a Nazi problem....it is much closer to Iranian theocracy.

Unfortunately, the US appears to have both problems. White Nationalists who are also Christian nut-jobs.

BobTheCoward · 18th March 2022, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

Unfortunately, the US appears to have both problems. White Nationalists who are also Christian nut-jobs.

White nationalists are not always Nazis.

Let's not make the beautiful cornucopia of nationalism only one vegetable

smartcooky · 18th March 2022, 02:32 PM

So Ukraine is to blame for not rolling over and giving Putin everything he demands

Got it!

MBDK · 18th March 2022, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

So Ukraine is to blame for not rolling over and giving Putin everything he demands

Got it!

Winner, winner. Putin's chicken dinner!

Venom · 18th March 2022, 06:30 PM

From a Facebook group

kookbreaker · 18th March 2022, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

Arnold Schwarzenegger's message (its text may be found here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...essage/627100/) was fairly good.

But it does contain some approximations and inaccuracies. Perhaps he has been told lies himself. If he was still in Germany, he could not read the Russian information website RT.com (without a VPN) because of European censorship. Having just one source of information is not ideal....

Ok, others have utterly demolished your Putin propaganda already, but can I point out something here?

Why would Arnie be in Germany? He’s Austrian by birth and an dual citizenship that nation and America. He’s wearing the flag of California on his sleeve for crying out loud!

Craig4 · 18th March 2022, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

Arnold Schwarzenegger's message (its text may be found here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...essage/627100/) was fairly good.

But it does contain some approximations and inaccuracies. Perhaps he has been told lies himself. If he was still in Germany, he could not read the Russian information website RT.com (without a VPN) because of European censorship. Having just one source of information is not ideal.

If he gets his information from forums, then he might get a distorted view because of censorship done by "moderators" who have a political agenda.

He said:

So he said that "Ukraine did not start this war". But is this true? (or only half-true)

A reminder of a few facts:

(https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ia-2022-02-26/)
(possible crime against humanity by Ukraine)

About sanctions imposed on Russia before 2022:

(https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-d...ons-on-russia/, date: May 3, 2021, before the Russian invasion of Ukraine)

So Ukraine (with its Western allies) waged a humanitarian and economic war on Russia in 2014, after its annexation of Crimea, even though it is well known that Crimeans wanted to join Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls).

In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ...

I saw something really funny on the the news. The Ukrainians hit a convoy of Spetznaz. They destroyed or captured all the vehicles. The Russians who couldn't escape surrendered or died. Funny stuff. Make Ukraine beautiful, kill a Russian soldier.

Craig4 · 18th March 2022, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

In 1994, Russia agreed to sign the Budapest Memorandum (in relation to Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons), which said:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclea...est_Memorandum)

It is understandable that Russia, the UK and US have signed such a document to reward Ukraine after it decided to become a non-nuclear state, but I don't think this should mean that borders can never evolve, and that Crimeans should kind of remain forever in a kind of "Ukrainian jail" that they dislike.

To those who say that Russia should not be rewarded for its agression, I reply that one may argue that it was in fact Ukraine and its allies who attacked first (read carefully post #2439). Besides, there are perhaps more urgent issues now that "punishing" some countries.

I like my borsch dressed with sour cream. Putin might be trying it dressed with his own brains. Russians have a way of dealing with leaders who get them into unpopular wars and economic collapse.

catsmate · 19th March 2022, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Is Ukraine to blame for Putin's invasion

No, don't be silly.

jimbob · 19th March 2022, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

No, don't be silly.

To be fair, that was my title, paraphrasing what posts I split from the thread discussing the actual war in Ukraine.

I think it is a fair paraphrase of the positions though.

Gaetan · 19th March 2022, 08:22 AM

Biden and Trudeau promised Ukrainians money and wealth to join NATO and they got what they were promised, billions.

Cosmic Yak · 19th March 2022, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Biden and Trudeau promised Ukrainians money and wealth to join NATO and they got what they were promised, billions.

Ukraine hasn't joined NATO.

sackett · 19th March 2022, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Biden and Trudeau promised Ukrainians money and wealth to join NATO and they got what they were promised, billions.

Trudeau is the mastermind! Trudeau, Fidel Castro's by-blow! Trudeau, the puppeteer! He lurks in the shadows of Canadia -- my God, just across the river from ME!!

Don't you see the fiendish simplicity of it? Or the fiendish complexity? Oh, it's all so confusing!

I've got one of my headaches, Gaetan. Make it go away. Tell us much, much more about Trudeau and the 'Kranians.

Gaetan · 19th March 2022, 10:42 AM

There is a saying that goes: If you want peace, prepare for war, except that the neighboring enemy thought you were preparing for war too much and decided to act before the threat was too great. If you want peace, that proves that it's not by arming yourself more and more that you're going to get it. The Russians will be forced to capture all the weapons sent by NATO to Ukraine and destroy the whole country to do so if they do not reach a voluntary disarmament agreement.

gabeygoat · 19th March 2022, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

There is a saying that goes: If you want peace, prepare for war, except that the neighboring enemy thought you were preparing for war too much and decided to act before the threat was too great. If you want peace, that proves that it's not by arming yourself more and more that you're going to get it. The Russians will be forced to capture all the weapons sent by NATO to Ukraine and destroy the whole country to do so if they do not reach a voluntary disarmament agreement.

That’s a long saying

Axxman300 · 19th March 2022, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

There is a saying that goes: If you want peace, prepare for war, except that the neighboring enemy thought you were preparing for war too much and decided to act before the threat was too great. If you want peace, that proves that it's not by arming yourself more and more that you're going to get it. The Russians will be forced to capture all the weapons sent by NATO to Ukraine and destroy the whole country to do so if they do not reach a voluntary disarmament agreement.

Aw. Poor Russia.

They invade a country that was never a threat to them. They murder women and children. They expose their military as nothing more than a glorified banana republic tap-dancing crew. And once again they have made themselves a pariah in the world. Three years ago, NATO was close to being an afterthought, but thanks to Putin, everyone wants to join up. There was a time when the world feared the Russian military threat, now the world laughs.

They just can't catch a break.

And the clock is now ticking on Putin.

JesseCuster · 19th March 2022, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by gabeygoat

That’s a long saying

It's also a weirdly specific saying in that it cites Russia, Ukraine, NATO, voluntary disarmament agreements.

For a saying, it's not particularly memorable or pithy.

jimbob · 19th March 2022, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by JesseCuster

It's also a weirdly specific saying in that it cites Russia, Ukraine, NATO, voluntary disarmament agreements.

For a saying, it's not particularly memorable or pithy.

Or correct

theprestige · 19th March 2022, 12:14 PM

It's like the pixie of key of geopolitics.

Trebuchet · 19th March 2022, 12:17 PM

Was Belgium to blame for Germany invading it in 1914 and 1940? At least as much as Ukraine is to blame for the current mess.

Gaetan · 19th March 2022, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Axxman300

Aw. Poor Russia.

They invade a country that was never a threat to them.

This is not true

smartcooky · 19th March 2022, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Axxman300

Aw. Poor Russia.

They invade a country that was never a threat to them. They murder women and children. They expose their military as nothing more than a glorified banana republic tap-dancing crew. And once again they have made themselves a pariah in the world. Three years ago, NATO was close to being an afterthought, but thanks to Putin, everyone wants to join up. There was a time when the world feared the Russian military threat, now the world laughs.

They just can't catch a break.

And the clock is now ticking on Putin.

For me, this has been the most surprising thing.

They really had most of the world fooled didn't they? Everyone thought the Russian military was an elite, well trained, powerfully armed outfit. Turns out they are nothing of the sort... they have had to resort to shelling and bombing civilians and blowing up children's hospitals because their troops are stalled. Its been almost a month and they have not been able to establish anything remotely close to air superiority against an opponent whose air force is, at least on paper, much weaker then theirs. The Russians are getting their arses kicked - over 7,500 soldiers killed in four weeks as well as an estimated 14,000 to 21,000 other casualties. Four of the Russian army's top leaders have also been killed in the fighting; Major Generals Vitaly Gerasimov, Andrei Kolesnikov, Andrei Sukhovetsky and Oleg Mityaev.

JesseCuster · 19th March 2022, 12:28 PM

sun-tzu-0025.jpg

smartcooky · 19th March 2022, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not true

Bollocks! Ukraine was never any kind of threat to Russia... but it might be now!

smartcooky · 19th March 2022, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by JesseCuster

Attachment 46428

Russia, Ukraine and NATO didn't exist in Sun Tzu's time

Besides, none of it originates with Sun Tzu. In its original form, it was "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (They who wish for peace, should prepare for war), a quote from the book "Epitoma Rei Militaris" (The Essence of Military Affairs) by the Roman general Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus

Gaetan · 19th March 2022, 12:44 PM

The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't the Ukrainians let the Russians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Ukraine and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Putin.

JesseCuster · 19th March 2022, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Why didn't the Ukrainians let the Russians invade their country?

They say there's no such thing as a stupid question, but...

smartcooky · 19th March 2022, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't the Ukrainians let the Russians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Ukraine and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Putin.

The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't Great Britain let Nazi Germany invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Great Britain and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Hitler.

catsmate · 19th March 2022, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Was Belgium to blame for Germany invading it in 1914 and 1940? At least as much as Ukraine is to blame for the current mess.

One of our resident Neo-Nazis said so.

Dave Rogers · 19th March 2022, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them.

So Russia, which has far more weapons than Ukraine, is not therefore interested in peace. That seems fair enough.

Dave

Gaetan · 19th March 2022, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't Great Britain let Nazi Germany invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Great Britain and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Hitler.

If the countries would have been disarmed, no doubt Hitler would not have been elected and there would have been no war, it is useless to arm ourselves and go to war if our neighbors are not a threat to us.

MBDK · 19th March 2022, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

There is a saying that goes: If you want peace, prepare for war, except that the neighboring enemy thought you were preparing for war too much and decided to act before the threat was too great. If you want peace, that proves that it's not by arming yourself more and more that you're going to get it. The Russians will be forced to capture all the weapons sent by NATO to Ukraine and destroy the whole country to do so if they do not reach a voluntary disarmament agreement.

I have a saying that is actually true:

"True evil blames it's crimes on their victims."

MBDK · 19th March 2022, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

<snip of previous bollocks>

it is useless to arm ourselves and go to war if our neighbors are not a threat to us.

Not if you want what they have. You know, like Russia is doing to the Ukraine.

What is truly useless is your tongue-bathing of Putin's boots, as he actually despises you.

Gaetan · 19th March 2022, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by MBDK

I have a saying that is actually true:

"True evil blames it's crimes on their victims."

True but the victims of the devil have nothing to reproach themselves for when this is not the case in this case

18th March 2022, 10:26 AM	#41
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789	Originally Posted by llwyd What proportion, do you know? Mostly I have heard about the Azov batallion (with their variously dubious disclaimers) but that doesn't seem awfully many - especially as in comparison with Russia which as a state is pretty completely fascist and many elements of the Wagner group for example rather clearly neo-nazis to boot. For a number that should be near zero, Azov battalion would count as fairly large.
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789

18th March 2022, 10:47 AM	#43
crescent Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,326	Azov has about 900 people - or at least it did before the recent fighting started. Or maybe it was 2500. Numbers vary. They (Azov) claim that about 10-20% of its members hold Nazi-ish beliefs. Ukraine had (before fighting started) about 200,000 people in its armed forces. So Azov made up somewhere around 1% of the pre-war Ukrainian military (at the most). With it's reserves activated, Ukraine probably now has at least 400,000 people on active duty now. There was also "Right-Sector" battalion, but they seem to have been folded into Azov (which may account for the higher number in the one estimate). These groups have political parties that poll around 2.5% of the vote in the most recent elections. I've never seen any photos of any of the Azov people with any of the Ukrainian Presidents or Prime Ministers. By contrast, the Russian Nazi Group is called Wagner Group. The most recent size estimate is 6,000. It's leader, Dmitry Utkin, has an SS uniform tattooed on his body. That's not crazy at all. He has been in photo ops with Vladimir Putin. In light of the failure of Russia's "de-Nazification" campaign, Russia will soon be sending in it's own Nazis - which again, is a much larger force than the Ukrainian Nazi group. Russia will use its Nazi group to try to kill or capture the Jewish guy who's grandfather barely survived the holocaust, and Russia will refer to this as "de-Nazification". Because that's how Russia rolls.
	Last edited by crescent; 18th March 2022 at 11:43 AM.

18th March 2022, 12:02 PM	#45
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789	Originally Posted by llwyd I don't know, even in our close to ideal Nordic paradise there are neo-nazis - not to talk about a corrupt, semi-failed state like the US... I think Ukraine is pretty fine with their Jewish president as far as nazism is concerned. US does not have a Nazi problem....it is much closer to Iranian theocracy.
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789

18th March 2022, 12:30 PM	#46
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 19,554	When the Soviets cut off supply to Berlin, the West supplied it from the air. If Crimea had really been cut off by Ukraine, it could easily have been supplied by sea or air. Anyone who thinks this is a reason for war just wants tot have a war.
	__________________ "The only true paradise is paradise lost" Marcel Proust

18th March 2022, 01:54 PM	#48
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789	Originally Posted by The Don Unfortunately, the US appears to have both problems. White Nationalists who are also Christian nut-jobs. White nationalists are not always Nazis. Let's not make the beautiful cornucopia of nationalism only one vegetable
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789

18th March 2022, 10:30 AM	#42
ginjawarrior Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 312	Originally Posted by llwyd What proportion, do you know? Mostly I have heard about the Azov batallion (with their variously dubious disclaimers) but that doesn't seem awfully many - especially as in comparison with Russia which as a state is pretty completely fascist and many elements of the Wagner group for example rather clearly neo-nazis to boot. It's about .5% of the armed forces with zero representatives in the Ukrainian government https://youtu.be/aoGFfr1ahGQ A short but good take on this

18th March 2022, 10:48 AM	#44
llwyd Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Helsinki Posts: 1,133	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward For a number that should be near zero, Azov battalion would count as fairly large. I don't know, even in our close to ideal Nordic paradise there are neo-nazis - not to talk about a corrupt, semi-failed state like the US... I think Ukraine is pretty fine with their Jewish president as far as nazism is concerned.

18th March 2022, 12:57 PM	#47
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 36,404	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward US does not have a Nazi problem....it is much closer to Iranian theocracy. Unfortunately, the US appears to have both problems. White Nationalists who are also Christian nut-jobs.

18th March 2022, 02:32 PM	#49
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,134	So Ukraine is to blame for not rolling over and giving Putin everything he demands Got it!
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

18th March 2022, 04:27 PM	#50
MBDK Muse Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 569	Originally Posted by smartcooky So Ukraine is to blame for not rolling over and giving Putin everything he demands Got it! Winner, winner. Putin's chicken dinner!
MBDK Muse Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 569

18th March 2022, 06:30 PM	#51
Venom Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 6,094	From a Facebook group

18th March 2022, 07:10 PM	#52
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,388	Originally Posted by Michel H Arnold Schwarzenegger's message (its text may be found here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...essage/627100/) was fairly good. But it does contain some approximations and inaccuracies. Perhaps he has been told lies himself. If he was still in Germany, he could not read the Russian information website RT.com (without a VPN) because of European censorship. Having just one source of information is not ideal.... Ok, others have utterly demolished your Putin propaganda already, but can I point out something here? Why would Arnie be in Germany? He’s Austrian by birth and an dual citizenship that nation and America. He’s wearing the flag of California on his sleeve for crying out loud!
	__________________ www.spectrum-scientifics.com <-

18th March 2022, 09:42 PM	#53
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 26,781	Originally Posted by Michel H Arnold Schwarzenegger's message (its text may be found here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...essage/627100/) was fairly good. But it does contain some approximations and inaccuracies. Perhaps he has been told lies himself. If he was still in Germany, he could not read the Russian information website RT.com (without a VPN) because of European censorship. Having just one source of information is not ideal. If he gets his information from forums, then he might get a distorted view because of censorship done by "moderators" who have a political agenda. He said: So he said that "Ukraine did not start this war". But is this true? (or only half-true) A reminder of a few facts: (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ia-2022-02-26/) (possible crime against humanity by Ukraine) About sanctions imposed on Russia before 2022: (https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-d...ons-on-russia/, date: May 3, 2021, before the Russian invasion of Ukraine) So Ukraine (with its Western allies) waged a humanitarian and economic war on Russia in 2014, after its annexation of Crimea, even though it is well known that Crimeans wanted to join Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls). In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ... I saw something really funny on the the news. The Ukrainians hit a convoy of Spetznaz. They destroyed or captured all the vehicles. The Russians who couldn't escape surrendered or died. Funny stuff. Make Ukraine beautiful, kill a Russian soldier.
	__________________ Fight like a Ukrainian.

18th March 2022, 09:47 PM	#54
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 26,781	Originally Posted by Michel H In 1994, Russia agreed to sign the Budapest Memorandum (in relation to Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons), which said: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclea...est_Memorandum) It is understandable that Russia, the UK and US have signed such a document to reward Ukraine after it decided to become a non-nuclear state, but I don't think this should mean that borders can never evolve, and that Crimeans should kind of remain forever in a kind of "Ukrainian jail" that they dislike. To those who say that Russia should not be rewarded for its agression, I reply that one may argue that it was in fact Ukraine and its allies who attacked first (read carefully post #2439). Besides, there are perhaps more urgent issues now that "punishing" some countries. I like my borsch dressed with sour cream. Putin might be trying it dressed with his own brains. Russians have a way of dealing with leaders who get them into unpopular wars and economic collapse.
	__________________ Fight like a Ukrainian.

19th March 2022, 07:25 AM	#55
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,125	Quote: Is Ukraine to blame for Putin's invasion No, don't be silly.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

19th March 2022, 07:46 AM	#56
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 29,273	Originally Posted by catsmate No, don't be silly. To be fair, that was my title, paraphrasing what posts I split from the thread discussing the actual war in Ukraine. I think it is a fair paraphrase of the positions though.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

19th March 2022, 08:22 AM	#57
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,673	Biden and Trudeau promised Ukrainians money and wealth to join NATO and they got what they were promised, billions.
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,673

19th March 2022, 09:31 AM	#58
Cosmic Yak Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand. Posts: 6,367	Originally Posted by Gaetan Biden and Trudeau promised Ukrainians money and wealth to join NATO and they got what they were promised, billions. Ukraine hasn't joined NATO.
	__________________ 'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt Cosmic Yak on this forum.

19th March 2022, 09:42 AM	#59
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,316	Of course! Why didn't we see it? Originally Posted by Gaetan Biden and Trudeau promised Ukrainians money and wealth to join NATO and they got what they were promised, billions. Trudeau is the mastermind! Trudeau, Fidel Castro's by-blow! Trudeau, the puppeteer! He lurks in the shadows of Canadia -- my God, just across the river from ME!! Don't you see the fiendish simplicity of it? Or the fiendish complexity? Oh, it's all so confusing! I've got one of my headaches, Gaetan. Make it go away. Tell us much, much more about Trudeau and the 'Kranians.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

19th March 2022, 10:42 AM	#60
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,673	There is a saying that goes: If you want peace, prepare for war, except that the neighboring enemy thought you were preparing for war too much and decided to act before the threat was too great. If you want peace, that proves that it's not by arming yourself more and more that you're going to get it. The Russians will be forced to capture all the weapons sent by NATO to Ukraine and destroy the whole country to do so if they do not reach a voluntary disarmament agreement.
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,673

19th March 2022, 11:41 AM	#61
gabeygoat Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hard Corvallis Oregon Posts: 1,686	Originally Posted by Gaetan There is a saying that goes: If you want peace, prepare for war, except that the neighboring enemy thought you were preparing for war too much and decided to act before the threat was too great. If you want peace, that proves that it's not by arming yourself more and more that you're going to get it. The Russians will be forced to capture all the weapons sent by NATO to Ukraine and destroy the whole country to do so if they do not reach a voluntary disarmament agreement. That’s a long saying
	__________________ "May I interest you in some coconut milk?" ~Akhenaten Wallabe Esq

19th March 2022, 11:51 AM	#62
Axxman300 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Central California Coast Posts: 6,556	Originally Posted by Gaetan There is a saying that goes: If you want peace, prepare for war, except that the neighboring enemy thought you were preparing for war too much and decided to act before the threat was too great. If you want peace, that proves that it's not by arming yourself more and more that you're going to get it. The Russians will be forced to capture all the weapons sent by NATO to Ukraine and destroy the whole country to do so if they do not reach a voluntary disarmament agreement. Aw. Poor Russia. They invade a country that was never a threat to them. They murder women and children. They expose their military as nothing more than a glorified banana republic tap-dancing crew. And once again they have made themselves a pariah in the world. Three years ago, NATO was close to being an afterthought, but thanks to Putin, everyone wants to join up. There was a time when the world feared the Russian military threat, now the world laughs. They just can't catch a break. And the clock is now ticking on Putin.
	__________________ Disingenuous Piranha

19th March 2022, 11:54 AM	#63
JesseCuster Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 1,867	Originally Posted by gabeygoat That’s a long saying It's also a weirdly specific saying in that it cites Russia, Ukraine, NATO, voluntary disarmament agreements. For a saying, it's not particularly memorable or pithy.

19th March 2022, 12:07 PM	#64
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 29,273	Originally Posted by JesseCuster It's also a weirdly specific saying in that it cites Russia, Ukraine, NATO, voluntary disarmament agreements. For a saying, it's not particularly memorable or pithy. Or correct
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

19th March 2022, 12:14 PM	#65
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,611	It's like the pixie of key of geopolitics.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

19th March 2022, 12:17 PM	#66
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 36,023	Was Belgium to blame for Germany invading it in 1914 and 1940? At least as much as Ukraine is to blame for the current mess.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

19th March 2022, 12:20 PM	#67
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,673	Originally Posted by Axxman300 Aw. Poor Russia. They invade a country that was never a threat to them. This is not true
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,673

19th March 2022, 12:27 PM	#68
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,134	Originally Posted by Axxman300 Aw. Poor Russia. They invade a country that was never a threat to them. They murder women and children. They expose their military as nothing more than a glorified banana republic tap-dancing crew. And once again they have made themselves a pariah in the world. Three years ago, NATO was close to being an afterthought, but thanks to Putin, everyone wants to join up. There was a time when the world feared the Russian military threat, now the world laughs. They just can't catch a break. And the clock is now ticking on Putin. For me, this has been the most surprising thing. They really had most of the world fooled didn't they? Everyone thought the Russian military was an elite, well trained, powerfully armed outfit. Turns out they are nothing of the sort... they have had to resort to shelling and bombing civilians and blowing up children's hospitals because their troops are stalled. Its been almost a month and they have not been able to establish anything remotely close to air superiority against an opponent whose air force is, at least on paper, much weaker then theirs. The Russians are getting their arses kicked - over 7,500 soldiers killed in four weeks as well as an estimated 14,000 to 21,000 other casualties. Four of the Russian army's top leaders have also been killed in the fighting; Major Generals Vitaly Gerasimov, Andrei Kolesnikov, Andrei Sukhovetsky and Oleg Mityaev.
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass. Last edited by smartcooky; 19th March 2022 at 12:39 PM.

19th March 2022, 12:28 PM	#69
JesseCuster Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 1,867	sun-tzu-0025.jpg

19th March 2022, 12:41 PM	#70
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,134	Originally Posted by Gaetan This is not true Bollocks! Ukraine was never any kind of threat to Russia... but it might be now!
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

19th March 2022, 12:42 PM	#71
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,134	Originally Posted by JesseCuster Attachment 46428 Russia, Ukraine and NATO didn't exist in Sun Tzu's time Besides, none of it originates with Sun Tzu. In its original form, it was "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" (They who wish for peace, should prepare for war), a quote from the book "Epitoma Rei Militaris" (The Essence of Military Affairs) by the Roman general Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass. Last edited by smartcooky; 19th March 2022 at 12:50 PM.

19th March 2022, 12:44 PM	#72
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,673	The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't the Ukrainians let the Russians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Ukraine and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Putin.
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,673

19th March 2022, 12:46 PM	#73
JesseCuster Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 1,867	Originally Posted by Gaetan Why didn't the Ukrainians let the Russians invade their country? They say there's no such thing as a stupid question, but...

19th March 2022, 12:55 PM	#74
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,134	Originally Posted by Gaetan The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't the Ukrainians let the Russians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Ukraine and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Putin. The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't Great Britain let Nazi Germany invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Great Britain and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Hitler.
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

19th March 2022, 01:04 PM	#75
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,125	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Was Belgium to blame for Germany invading it in 1914 and 1940? At least as much as Ukraine is to blame for the current mess. One of our resident Neo-Nazis said so.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.