Split Thread: Is Ukraine to blame for Putin's invasion

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by MBDK

Not if you want what they have.

With trade any country can have what others have

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

If the countries would have been disarmed, no doubt Hitler would not have been elected and there would have been no war, it is useless to arm ourselves and go to war if our neighbors are not a threat to us.

I get it, you're an idealist, like a naive flower child of the late 1960's. In an ideal world, what you say is true - there would be no good v evil, only good; no right v wrong, only right; no aggression, no need for defense or for weapons of any kind.

Unfortunately, such a world is an unachievable fantasy - we live in a real world that is far from ideal. Life exists and has evolved through a process called "survival of the fittest", a process whose consequences inevitably lead to competition for resources and to fighting and wars for those resources. I think you seriously underestimate the power of evil... to paraphrase a couple of fictional characters...."Evil seeks to maintain power by suppressing the truth and misleading the innocent."

[gnome]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

If the countries would have been disarmed, no doubt Hitler would not have been elected and there would have been no war, it is useless to arm ourselves and go to war if our neighbors are not a threat to us.

I really, really wish not being a threat prevented aggression.

Sadly, world leaders do useless and irrational things all the time.

[Garrison]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

If the countries would have been disarmed, no doubt Hitler would not have been elected and there would have been no war, it is useless to arm ourselves and go to war if our neighbors are not a threat to us.

And it seems you are as ignorant of 20th century history as you are of current events. Disarmament was pursued in the 1930s and failed in the face of a lunatic who thought war was a good thing. Efforts to normalize relations with Putin's Russia proved equally doomed.

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

If the countries would have been disarmed, no doubt Hitler would not have been elected and there would have been no war, it is useless to arm ourselves and go to war if our neighbors are not a threat to us.

Ah, that must be why The Netherlands, which at the start of WW2 was virtually disarmed, especially compared to it's neighbours, and which had proclaimed to remain neutral and support neither side, like it had done in WW1, was left completely alone by the Nazi's.
Like Denmark.

[junkshop]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

...The dictator of Ukraine...

The what now?



ETA: I thought you were in favour of authoritarian despots, anyway? If Zelenskyy were the dictator of Ukraine then (according to your espoused ideology) everyone should have rolled over and offered up their soft underparts for him to do with as he wished, lest they anger him, and thereby force him to bring about the endtimes (which would totally be their fault), right?

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Michel H

Arnold Schwarzenegger's message (its text may be found here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...essage/627100/) was fairly good.

But it does contain some approximations and inaccuracies. Perhaps he has been told lies himself. If he was still in Germany, he could not read the Russian information website RT.com (without a VPN) because of European censorship. Having just one source of information is not ideal.

If he gets his information from forums, then he might get a distorted view because of censorship done by "moderators" who have a political agenda.

He said:


So he said that "Ukraine did not start this war". But is this true? (or only half-true)

A reminder of a few facts:


(https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ia-2022-02-26/)
(possible crime against humanity by Ukraine)


About sanctions imposed on Russia before 2022:

(https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-d...ons-on-russia/, date: May 3, 2021, before the Russian invasion of Ukraine)

So Ukraine (with its Western allies) waged a humanitarian and economic war on Russia in 2014, after its annexation of Crimea, even though it is well known that Crimeans wanted to join Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...ferendum_polls).

In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ...

Thank you for reminding us of the ways in which Russia, not Ukraine, started the war in 2014.

I am surprised the thread is not already closed because all answers have been given?

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Michel H

No, not at all.

In these conflicts, often, you don't have black and white situations, where one side is completely wrong and evil, while the other side is completely pure and angelic....

Correct.
Not often.
In this case, however, it really is black/white: Russia is 100% to blame. As your opening post documented aptly (you just missed the meaning of the facts you presented).

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I believe that the Russian annexation of Crimea did violate the letter of this treaty, but that this is not very important (kind of a detail thing, compared with what is at stake now).

Well, no. It only was a casus belli resulting in tens of thousands of deaths.

Committed nazis (I am looking very much past you, with solemn intent) consider all-out war with tens of thousands of victims "not very important (kind of a detail thing)" compared with the millions they really love to have murdered.

[MBDK]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

True but the victims of the devil have nothing to reproach themselves for when this is not the case in this case

I agree Putin is very much in the Devil's guise, but none of his victims reproach themselves, as the only reason ANY victim has to reproach themselves would be thinking they put themselves in harm's way - not a real fault. In the matter of the Ukraine, you cannot be considered to have done so just because you live there, much less reproach yourself for it.

Originally Posted by Gaetan

With trade any country can have what others have

True. Too bad thieves like Putin do not want to pay a fair price, and would rather strongarm their way to get what they want.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

...
Why would Arnie be in Germany? He’s Austrian by birth ...

But remember when Hitler invaded Austria Austria chose to become Germany without any military pressure and all? It really is the same!
Only Real Nazis may decide what nationality somebody is nased on such basic realities of history, and so Michel gets to decide that Arnie really is German

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

...the neighboring enemy thought you were preparing for war too much ...

Simple question, Gaetan:

Was Ukraine preparing for war with Russia? I mean not the defensive war we have, but a military attack on Russia? Yes or no?

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not true

Explain the specific threats that Ukraine posed to Russia!

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't the Ukrainians let the Russians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Ukraine and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Putin.

Since Russia has far more weapons, why don't you ask for Russia to allow itself to be invaded by Estonia and have all their weapons destroyed?
This would have the additional benefit that Estonia could destroy all the nuclear weapons in Russia.

Then, USA could roll over for Belize and have itself disarmed, and China for Bhutan, and voilá, Peace on Earth!

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

With trade any country can have what others have

Surely you will next advise Putin and Russia to pull out of Ukraine, so they will have trade again and not devolve into abject poverty? (Well, Russia will slide into poverty, not Putin himself, of course, but that's a detail better not looked into...)

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

This is not true

Oh sorry we forget to specify that this discussion is happening in reality and only things which are actually happening in reality can be discussed in it.

Anyone and everyone who think's Russia had any "leGtimaTe SeCuRiTy ConceRNS" is the Ukraine is lying.

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

For me, this has been the most surprising thing.

They really had most of the world fooled didn't they? Everyone thought the Russian military was an elite, well trained, powerfully armed outfit. Turns out they are nothing of the sort... they have had to resort to shelling and bombing civilians and blowing up children's hospitals because their troops are stalled. Its been almost a month and they have not been able to establish anything remotely close to air superiority against an opponent whose air force is, at least on paper, much weaker then theirs. The Russians are getting their arses kicked - over 7,500 soldiers killed in four weeks as well as an estimated 14,000 to 21,000 other casualties. Four of the Russian army's top leaders have also been killed in the fighting; Major Generals Vitaly Gerasimov, Andrei Kolesnikov, Andrei Sukhovetsky and Oleg Mityaev.

Someone on Twitter joked that they want a refund for Call of Duty: Modern Warfare II because they thought they were defending Burgerland against a near-peer enemy.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by MBDK

I agree Putin is very much in the Devil's guise, but none of his victims reproach themselves, as the only reason ANY victim has to reproach themselves would be thinking they put themselves in harm's way - not a real fault. In the matter of the Ukraine, you cannot be considered to have done so just because you live there, much less reproach yourself for it.

Obama was elected, Biden was elected, Zelinski was elected, these three elected and who voted for them are responsible for the setbacks of Ukraine

Quote:

True. Too bad thieves like Putin do not want to pay a fair price, and would rather strongarm their way to get what they want.

Ukraine could do what they want as long they are not a threat to their neighbour

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Ukraine could do what they want as long they are not a threat to their neighbour

Would you also consider this proposal fair?
-> Russia could do what they want as long they are not a threat to their neighbour

If you think this is a fair proposal, the follow-up question asks itself:
Is Russia a threat to their neighbors?
Like...
Is Russia a threat to Ukraine?
Is Russia a threat to Georgia?
Is Russia a threat to Estonia?
Is Russia a threat to Kazakhstan?
Is Russia a threat to Moldova?
Is Russia a threat to Armenia?
Is Russia a threat to Poland, the UK, Germany, France...?

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Explain the specific threats that Ukraine posed to Russia!

*Confused* Why don't you since that was your entire argument in the primary thread.

*Please, please, please go "Show me where I said that!" I have slides.*

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't the Ukrainians let the Russians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Ukraine and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Putin.

Guys like Putin remind the world why armies need to still exist. The Luftwaffe is going all-in on the F-35, thanks to Russia.

Russia already had a large military, why modernize? Russia is making billions on oil, why not use that money to improve infrastructure, and grow opportunity for the Russian people? Putin and his billionaire buddies are lining their pockets instead. Russia has a lot to offer in the way of raw minerals, petroleum, nuclear power, and factory space. They could have had the same ridiculous growth as China has experienced during the same time frame, but Putin's junta is short-sighted and small-minded. Hell, the Chinese have grown their economy with almost the same level of corruption as Russia, which underlines how pathetic Putin really is.

He 's sad little man.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Explain the specific threats that Ukraine posed to Russia!

This was you five days ago. Maybe you could answer yourself.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Would you also consider this proposal fair?
-> Russia could do what they want as long they are not a threat to their neighbour

If you think this is a fair proposal, the follow-up question asks itself:
Is Russia a threat to their neighbors?
Like...
Is Russia a threat to Ukraine?
Is Russia a threat to Georgia?
Is Russia a threat to Estonia?
Is Russia a threat to Kazakhstan?
Is Russia a threat to Moldova?
Is Russia a threat to Armenia?
Is Russia a threat to Poland, the UK, Germany, France...?

I consider it fair that all countries get rid of weapons as well as the ones you buy in stores.

[Foster Zygote]

Ukraine was asking for it. I mean, just look what they were wearing.

[gnome]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I consider it fair that all countries get rid of weapons as well as the ones you buy in stores.

And if some countries do and some don't--you advise giving them what they want to prevent war?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Obama was elected, Biden was elected, Zelinski was elected, these three elected and who voted for them are responsible for the setbacks of Ukraine

How, exactly? And where's Trump on your list?

Quote:

Ukraine could do what they want as long they are not a threat to their neighbour

How is joining the EU a threat to Russia? How is cleaning up government corruption in Ukraine a threat to Russia? How is joining NATO a threat to Russia?

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I consider it fair that all countries get rid of weapons as well as the ones you buy in stores.

Cool, and how would this be enforced? Would those in charge of confirming disarmament be armed? Who puts these armed people in power.

And what constitutes a weapon?

Are you the lone Canadian who doesn't have at least one hockey stick somewhere in the house, or know where to grab one in a pinch?

[MBDK]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Obama was elected, Biden was elected, Zelinski was elected, these three elected and who voted for them are responsible for the setbacks of Ukraine





Ukraine could do what they want as long they are not a threat to their neighbour

Neither of your comments have anything to do with the particulars of our discussion. Your tactic of attempted topic-change is inherently cowardly. This is why Putin hates you.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

I consider it fair that all countries get rid of weapons as well as the ones you buy in stores.

You forgot to answer my questions:

Would you also consider this proposal fair?
-> Russia could do what they want as long they are not a threat to their neighbour

If you think this is a fair proposal, the follow-up question asks itself:
Is Russia a threat to their neighbors?
Like...
Is Russia a threat to Ukraine?
Is Russia a threat to Georgia?
Is Russia a threat to Estonia?
Is Russia a threat to Kazakhstan?
Is Russia a threat to Moldova?
Is Russia a threat to Armenia?
Is Russia a threat to Poland, the UK, Germany, France...?

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Axxman300

Cool, and how would this be enforced? Would those in charge of confirming disarmament be armed? Who puts these armed people in power.

And what constitutes a weapon?

Are you the lone Canadian who doesn't have at least one hockey stick somewhere in the house, or know where to grab one in a pinch?

If the United States would be disarmed why would the Russians or the Chinese try to kill you?

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

If the United States would be disarmed why would the Russians or the Chinese try to kill you?

Of course! It all makes perfect sense now. People only attack others when they pose a serious military threat - just like the Southern Cheyenne women and children under Black Kettle, who posed such an imminent military threat to Colonel John Chivington's 675 men of the Third Colorado Cavalry. Chivington had to kill those women and children as an act of self defense.

Have you figured out how incredibly stupid I think your argument is?

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

If the United States would be disarmed why would the Russians or the Chinese try to kill you?

You said everyone disarms. Make up your mind.

[Craig4]

Great news. Ukrainians are on the offensive. They are poised to retake ground lost to Russians along the Black Sea Coast. It's a first step to isolating Crimea and blowing the bridge. With no land route and the bridge destroyed (or at least held at risk), it's only a matter of time before Ukraine retakes Crimea.

[Gaetan]

Originally Posted by Craig4

Great news. Ukrainians are on the offensive. They are poised to retake ground lost to Russians along the Black Sea Coast. It's a first step to isolating Crimea and blowing the bridge. With no land route and the bridge destroyed (or at least held at risk), it's only a matter of time before Ukraine retakes Crimea.

You take your dreams for reality, it's that the Ukrainian troops have been driven from the north and have taken refuge in the south

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Craig4

Great news. Ukrainians are on the offensive. They are poised to retake ground lost to Russians along the Black Sea Coast. It's a first step to isolating Crimea and blowing the bridge. With no land route and the bridge destroyed (or at least held at risk), it's only a matter of time before Ukraine retakes Crimea.

I must be obvious to Putin by now, that even Russia manages to occupy Ukraine, he is going have an almost impossible job trying to control it.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

I must be obvious to Putin by now, that even Russia manages to occupy Ukraine, he is going have an almost impossible job trying to control it.

I don't know - Putin's is a State Security guy, not an army guy.
Russia is much better at intimation and thuggery than fighting.
Turning free countries into police states is what Putin excels at.

[MBDK]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You take your dreams for reality, it's that the Ukrainian troops have been driven from the north and have taken refuge in the south

Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf...is that YOU????

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You take your dreams for reality, it's that the Ukrainian troops have been driven from the north and have taken refuge in the south

Wut.

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Obama was elected, Biden was elected, Zelinski was elected, these three elected and who voted for them are responsible for the setbacks of Ukraine





Ukraine could do what they want as long they are not a threat to their neighbour

You are incorrect. Ukraine is not a threat to Russia.

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You take your dreams for reality, it's that the Ukrainian troops have been driven from the north and have taken refuge in the south

What war are you watching?