[Split Thread] Is Ukraine to blame for Putin's invasion - Page 4

The Great Zaganza · 20th March 2022, 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by Craig4

What war are you watching?

Cardinal directions are not Gaetan's strong suit.

Captain_Swoop · 20th March 2022, 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

They really had most of the world fooled didn't they? Everyone thought the Russian military was an elite, well trained, powerfully armed outfit.

I never did.

Captain_Swoop · 20th March 2022, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't the Ukrainians let the Russians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Ukraine and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Putin.

Why didn't the Russians let the Ukrainians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Russia and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Ukraine.

Captain_Swoop · 20th March 2022, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

If the countries would have been disarmed, no doubt Hitler would not have been elected and there would have been no war, it is useless to arm ourselves and go to war if our neighbors are not a threat to us.

So why does Russia do it?

jimbob · 20th March 2022, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

I never did.

Yup, we saw their performance in Grozny and Syria. We saw, as you referenced many times, the performance of their aircraft carrier. A vessel that is high profile and presumably would have had more attention paid to it than other weapons systems.

They are very capable at killing poorly-armed people along with civilians.

Captain_Swoop · 20th March 2022, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Yup, we saw their performance in Grozny and Syria. We saw, as you referenced many times, the performance of their aircraft carrier. A vessel that is high profile and presumably would have had more attention paid to it than other weapons systems.

They are very capable at killing poorly-armed people along with civilians.

Don't forget the SU-57 'stealth fighter'
India ordered over 200 and were partners in the development program. They were to have their own production facility.
After aircraft actually were in the air and testing they pulled out of the because they said it did not meet its requirements for stealth, combat avionics, radars and sensors.
They Russians been touting them around the world looking for customers, sofar they have sold 14 to Algeria.

Gaetan · 20th March 2022, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Why didn't the Russians let the Ukrainians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Russia and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Ukraine.

Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country.

The Great Zaganza · 20th March 2022, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction

Your support for slavery is noted.

JoeMorgue · 20th March 2022, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction

I know this is a troll bit but it's still the most anger-inducing thing I've heard in a while.

Mike! · 20th March 2022, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country.

So why hasn't Russia given up already?

Captain_Swoop · 20th March 2022, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country.

So Russia should lay down it's arms because it is obviously weaker than quite a few other countries.

Dave Rogers · 20th March 2022, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction.

That's a pretty good definition of fascism.

Dave

trustbutverify · 20th March 2022, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country.

Which is why you blame the Lebanese and Palestinians for the destruction done to them, right?

abaddon · 20th March 2022, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country.

But I can have as many weapons as I wish for free, right?

Gaetan · 20th March 2022, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by Mike!

So why hasn't Russia given up already?

That's right, they attacked Ukraine as a prevention not to be the weakest, you can't blame the russian to do the samathing you do, Bush attaked Iraq and they wasn't even a threat to US, Putin had more reasons to attact Ukraine than Bush had to attact Iraq. You are a bunch of unjust hypocrites. if you break the world balance you will live in the most corrupt world you have ever seen, You will live in a cartel of criminals.

trustbutverify · 20th March 2022, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

That's right, they attacked Ukraine as a prevention not to be the weakest, you can't blame the russian to do the samathing you do, Bush attaked Iraq and they wasn't even a threat to US, Putin had more reasons to attact Ukraine than Bush had to attact Iraq. You are a bunch of unjust hypocrites.

Exactly what a fascist would say, which makes sense since that's what you actually are.

Mike! · 20th March 2022, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

That's right, they attacked Ukraine as a prevention not to be the weakest, you can't blame the russian to do the samathing you do, Bush attaked Iraq and they wasn't even a threat to US, Putin had more reasons to attact Ukraine than Bush had to attact Iraq. You are a bunch of unjust hypocrites.

Nonsense.

jimbob · 20th March 2022, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Don't forget the SU-57 'stealth fighter'
India ordered over 200 and were partners in the development program. They were to have their own production facility.
After aircraft actually were in the air and testing they pulled out of the because they said it did not meet its requirements for stealth, combat avionics, radars and sensors.
They Russians been touting them around the world looking for customers, sofar they have sold 14 to Algeria.

I seem to recall that the SU-57 also had problems with its engine.

I still think that is more understandable than the problems with the aircraft carrier, and actually deciding to use it as a very visible exemplar of Russian power projection.

Captain_Swoop · 20th March 2022, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

I seem to recall that the SU-57 also had problems with its engine.

I still think that is more understandable than the problems with the aircraft carrier, and actually deciding to use it as a very visible exemplar of Russian power projection.

There ware serious problems with the airframe too.

Don't forget the Nikonov AN94 rifle that was supposed to replace the AK.
Fiendishly complex and incorporating a pulley system and requiring a degree in engineering to field strip.
It was officially adapted but hasn't been put in to any kind of real service.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

zorro99 · 20th March 2022, 06:27 AM

No, Ukraine is not to blame for Russia’s invasion.

jimbob · 20th March 2022, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

There ware serious problems with the airframe too.

Don't forget the Nikonov AN94 rifle that was supposed to replace the AK.
Fiendishly complex and incorporating a pulley system and requiring a degree in engineering to field strip.
It was officially adapted but hasn't been put in to any kind of real service.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

video doesn't work

sackett · 20th March 2022, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

video doesn't work

That is altogether fitting and proper.

dudalb · 20th March 2022, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Venom

From a Facebook group

https://i.imgur.com/JT8yaCF.png

That about sume it up.

dudalb · 20th March 2022, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

There ware serious problems with the airframe too.

Don't forget the Nikonov AN94 rifle that was supposed to replace the AK.
Fiendishly complex and incorporating a pulley system and requiring a degree in engineering to field strip.
It was officially adapted but hasn't been put in to any kind of real service.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

That is bat crap crazy. SMall arms is the one area of military equipment where the Russians have been good at, because they avoided complexity, made is soldier friendly and soldier proof, and generally followed the rule of KISS....Keep It Simple, Stupid.
Now they throw that away.
I smell one of Putin Oligrach buddies at work here pawning off the AN94 to make a profit.

jimbob · 20th March 2022, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by sackett

That is altogether fitting and proper.

Nice one

Michel H · 20th March 2022, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

video doesn't work

Click on "I AGREE", and then "Watch on Youtube" (this worked for me).

Or click on this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtMssTSnRHU.

Foster Zygote · 20th March 2022, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

You will live in a cartel of criminals.

You mean like the Russian kleptocracy?

Captain_Swoop · 20th March 2022, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

That is bat crap crazy. SMall arms is the one area of military equipment where the Russians have been good at, because they avoided complexity, made is soldier friendly and soldier proof, and generally followed the rule of KISS....Keep It Simple, Stupid.
Now they throw that away.
I smell one of Putin Oligrach buddies at work here pawning off the AN94 to make a profit.

USA had trials of similar weapon concepts, the idea is to fire several shots quickly before recoil kicks in. USA went for rounds with multiple projectiles, Russia tried to speed up the rate of fire for a couple of consecutive rounds and try to delay the recoil.

Captain_Swoop · 20th March 2022, 09:24 AM

[Unusual the video not playing, there's not usually any problem with Forgotten Weapons playing on other sites.

jimbob · 20th March 2022, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

[Unusual the video not playing, there's not usually any problem with Forgotten Weapons playing on other sites.

Nor with those videos of theirs that you have linked to previously.

But it says that the video owner has disabled embedding. So maybe they're doing something different with this.

theprestige · 20th March 2022, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

That is bat crap crazy. SMall arms is the one area of military equipment where the Russians have been good at, because they avoided complexity, made is soldier friendly and soldier proof, and generally followed the rule of KISS....Keep It Simple, Stupid.
Now they throw that away.
I smell one of Putin Oligrach buddies at work here pawning off the AN94 to make a profit.

As far as I can tell, the Russian Federation made plans across the board to upgrade every military arm to next-generation weapons on par with the leading edge of their western counterparts...

... And then immediately discovered it was unable to follow through on any of them. The T-14 Armata ended up being dismissed by the Russian Minster of Defense, with the excuse that sure, they could replace all the obsolete tanks in Russian service, but why bother when those tanks were working just fine and had a healthy foreign market. The Su-50 falls short on stealth shape, stealth coating, and thrust vectoring. Their entire capital ship outlay is circling the drain. Apparently their new rifle is Slav Space Magic.

And now we're learning that even their decision to just keep upgrading their existing stuff isn't bearing the expected fruit. Western analysts are probably wondering if even their vaunted air defense systems are operational as claimed.

Oystein · 20th March 2022, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

...Bush attaked Iraq and they wasn't even a threat to US, Putin had more reasons to attact Ukraine than Bush had to attact Iraq. ...

Since you somehow make "being a threat to..." an important category, I am reminded that you forgot (twice) to answer my questions:

Would you also consider this proposal fair?
-> Russia could do what they want as long they are not a threat to their neighbour

If you think this is a fair proposal, the follow-up question asks itself:
Is Russia a threat to their neighbors?
Like...
Is Russia a threat to Ukraine?
Is Russia a threat to Georgia?
Is Russia a threat to Estonia?
Is Russia a threat to Kazakhstan?
Is Russia a threat to Moldova?
Is Russia a threat to Armenia?
Is Russia a threat to Poland, the UK, Germany, France...?

Oystein · 20th March 2022, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

You mean like the Russian kleptocracy?

Someone pointed out the other day that Russia is not so much a kleptocracy (where everybody wields the power and money they manage to grab) and rather a mafia state (where a single patron, a robber king, calls all the shots).

jimbob · 20th March 2022, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

As far as I can tell, the Russian Federation made plans across the board to upgrade every military arm to next-generation weapons on par with the leading edge of their western counterparts...

... And then immediately discovered it was unable to follow through on any of them. The T-14 Armata ended up being dismissed by the Russian Minster of Defense, with the excuse that sure, they could replace all the obsolete tanks in Russian service, but why bother when those tanks were working just fine and had a healthy foreign market. The Su-50 falls short on stealth shape, stealth coating, and thrust vectoring. Their entire capital ship outlay is circling the drain. Apparently their new rifle is Slav Space Magic.

And now we're learning that even their decision to just keep upgrading their existing stuff isn't bearing the expected fruit. Western analysts are probably wondering if even their vaunted air defense systems are operational as claimed.

Yup. Lots of stuff that impresses on a May Day parade, or even in propaganda videos. Not so much on the stuff that keeps them working.

Trying to compete with the US in every field of technology whilst having a defence budget the size of the UK's and an economy roughly half the UK's is going to miss on all the other stuff that's needed - especially if one also is trying to have armed forces that are five times the UK's in size on that budget.

Axxman300 · 20th March 2022, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country.

NO.

It's up to the lesser group to make the aggressor pay for every inch of ground in blood. Evil must be punched in the face.

Gaetan · 20th March 2022, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Oystein

Since you somehow make "being a threat to..." an important category, I am reminded that you forgot (twice) to answer my questions:

Would you also consider this proposal fair?
-> Russia could do what they want as long they are not a threat to their neighbour

If you think this is a fair proposal, the follow-up question asks itself:
Is Russia a threat to their neighbors?
Like...
Is Russia a threat to Ukraine?
Is Russia a threat to Georgia?
Is Russia a threat to Estonia?
Is Russia a threat to Kazakhstan?
Is Russia a threat to Moldova?
Is Russia a threat to Armenia?
Is Russia a threat to Poland, the UK, Germany, France...?

All countries are a potential threat to each other if they have weapons my proposal is to get rid of all weapons as well as the one you buy in stores.

Axxman300 · 20th March 2022, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

That's right, they attacked Ukraine as a prevention not to be the weakest, you can't blame the russian to do the samathing you do, Bush attaked Iraq and they wasn't even a threat to US, Putin had more reasons to attact Ukraine than Bush had to attact Iraq. You are a bunch of unjust hypocrites. if you break the world balance you will live in the most corrupt world you have ever seen, You will live in a cartel of criminals.

Did the Ukraine invade a neighboring country only to have a Russian-led coalition drive them out, establish a No-Fly-Zone, and demand they destroy their WMD programs only to play games for a decade with UNSCOM?

Nope.

Did the US flatten every city in Iraq? Nope. Did Iraq beg us to return when ISIS became a threat? Yup.

Here's a fun note. The Iraqis asked us to return. In Ukraine, civilians picked up guns because they'd rather die than live under Russian rule again. You cannot have a clearer picture of the difference between the US and Russia.

Axxman300 · 20th March 2022, 11:01 AM

That hypersonic missile turns out to be a big yawn. And we can track it. Thanks, Putin.

jimbob · 20th March 2022, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Axxman300

That hypersonic missile turns out to be a big yawn. And we can track it. Thanks, Putin.

<mild surprise>Was it actually used then? It wasn't just another missile that Russia claimed was a hypersonic missile?</mild surprise>

Gaetan · 20th March 2022, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Axxman300

Did the Ukraine invade a neighboring country only to have a Russian-led coalition drive them out, establish a No-Fly-Zone, and demand they destroy their WMD programs only to play games for a decade with UNSCOM?

Nope.

Did the US flatten every city in Iraq? Nope. Did Iraq beg us to return when ISIS became a threat? Yup.

Here's a fun note. The Iraqis asked us to return. In Ukraine, civilians picked up guns because they'd rather die than live under Russian rule again. You cannot have a clearer picture of the difference between the US and Russia.

Where was the one million Iraqis who die, if you trust your medias everything was nice but this not the reality, this is just incredible. This is just in the war it doesn't take into account the people who die of starvation before it because of the embargo.

20th March 2022, 02:56 AM	#121
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 19,546	Originally Posted by Craig4 What war are you watching? Cardinal directions are not Gaetan's strong suit.
	__________________ "The only true paradise is paradise lost" Marcel Proust

20th March 2022, 03:54 AM	#125
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 29,227	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop I never did. Yup, we saw their performance in Grozny and Syria. We saw, as you referenced many times, the performance of their aircraft carrier. A vessel that is high profile and presumably would have had more attention paid to it than other weapons systems. They are very capable at killing poorly-armed people along with civilians.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

20th March 2022, 05:11 AM	#127
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,672	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Why didn't the Russians let the Ukrainians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Russia and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Ukraine. Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country.
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,672	Last edited by Gaetan; 20th March 2022 at 05:23 AM.

20th March 2022, 05:18 AM	#128
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 19,546	Originally Posted by Gaetan Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction Your support for slavery is noted.
	__________________ "The only true paradise is paradise lost" Marcel Proust

20th March 2022, 05:20 AM	#129
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	Originally Posted by Gaetan Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction I know this is a troll bit but it's still the most anger-inducing thing I've heard in a while.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

20th March 2022, 03:49 AM	#122
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by smartcooky They really had most of the world fooled didn't they? Everyone thought the Russian military was an elite, well trained, powerfully armed outfit. I never did.

20th March 2022, 03:51 AM	#123
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by Gaetan The only way to have peace is to destroy weapons, not to make or acquire them. Why didn't the Ukrainians let the Russians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Ukraine and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Putin. Why didn't the Russians let the Ukrainians invade their country, no one would have been killed and there would have been no massive destruction of infrastructure. The dictator of Russia and his government had only to go abroad so as not to be bothered by Ukraine.

20th March 2022, 03:52 AM	#124
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by Gaetan If the countries would have been disarmed, no doubt Hitler would not have been elected and there would have been no war, it is useless to arm ourselves and go to war if our neighbors are not a threat to us. So why does Russia do it?

20th March 2022, 04:31 AM	#126
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by jimbob Yup, we saw their performance in Grozny and Syria. We saw, as you referenced many times, the performance of their aircraft carrier. A vessel that is high profile and presumably would have had more attention paid to it than other weapons systems. They are very capable at killing poorly-armed people along with civilians. Don't forget the SU-57 'stealth fighter' India ordered over 200 and were partners in the development program. They were to have their own production facility. After aircraft actually were in the air and testing they pulled out of the because they said it did not meet its requirements for stealth, combat avionics, radars and sensors. They Russians been touting them around the world looking for customers, sofar they have sold 14 to Algeria.

20th March 2022, 05:24 AM	#130
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 49,411	Originally Posted by Gaetan Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country. So why hasn't Russia given up already?
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

20th March 2022, 05:28 AM	#131
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by Gaetan Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country. So Russia should lay down it's arms because it is obviously weaker than quite a few other countries.

20th March 2022, 05:28 AM	#132
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 33,719	Originally Posted by Gaetan Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction. That's a pretty good definition of fascism. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

20th March 2022, 05:32 AM	#133
trustbutverify Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 10,051	Originally Posted by Gaetan Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country. Which is why you blame the Lebanese and Palestinians for the destruction done to them, right?
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

20th March 2022, 05:37 AM	#134
abaddon Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Republic of Ireland Posts: 23,499	Originally Posted by Gaetan Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country. But I can have as many weapons as I wish for free, right?
	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...

20th March 2022, 05:44 AM	#135
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,672	Originally Posted by Mike! So why hasn't Russia given up already? That's right, they attacked Ukraine as a prevention not to be the weakest, you can't blame the russian to do the samathing you do, Bush attaked Iraq and they wasn't even a threat to US, Putin had more reasons to attact Ukraine than Bush had to attact Iraq. You are a bunch of unjust hypocrites. if you break the world balance you will live in the most corrupt world you have ever seen, You will live in a cartel of criminals.
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,672	Last edited by Gaetan; 20th March 2022 at 05:59 AM.

20th March 2022, 05:49 AM	#136
trustbutverify Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 10,051	Originally Posted by Gaetan That's right, they attacked Ukraine as a prevention not to be the weakest, you can't blame the russian to do the samathing you do, Bush attaked Iraq and they wasn't even a threat to US, Putin had more reasons to attact Ukraine than Bush had to attact Iraq. You are a bunch of unjust hypocrites. Exactly what a fascist would say, which makes sense since that's what you actually are.
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

20th March 2022, 05:55 AM	#137
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 49,411	Originally Posted by Gaetan That's right, they attacked Ukraine as a prevention not to be the weakest, you can't blame the russian to do the samathing you do, Bush attaked Iraq and they wasn't even a threat to US, Putin had more reasons to attact Ukraine than Bush had to attact Iraq. You are a bunch of unjust hypocrites. Nonsense.
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

20th March 2022, 06:10 AM	#138
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 29,227	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Don't forget the SU-57 'stealth fighter' India ordered over 200 and were partners in the development program. They were to have their own production facility. After aircraft actually were in the air and testing they pulled out of the because they said it did not meet its requirements for stealth, combat avionics, radars and sensors. They Russians been touting them around the world looking for customers, sofar they have sold 14 to Algeria. I seem to recall that the SU-57 also had problems with its engine. I still think that is more understandable than the problems with the aircraft carrier, and actually deciding to use it as a very visible exemplar of Russian power projection.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

20th March 2022, 06:27 AM	#140
zorro99 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,261	No, Ukraine is not to blame for Russia’s invasion.
zorro99 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,261	__________________ There is nothing as deceptive as an obvious fact.

20th March 2022, 06:50 AM	#142
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,314	Originally Posted by jimbob video doesn't work That is altogether fitting and proper.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

20th March 2022, 06:51 AM	#143
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,771	Originally Posted by Venom From a Facebook group https://i.imgur.com/JT8yaCF.png That about sume it up.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

20th March 2022, 07:12 AM	#145
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 29,227	Originally Posted by sackett That is altogether fitting and proper. Nice one
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

20th March 2022, 07:44 AM	#146
Michel H Illuminator Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,325	Originally Posted by jimbob video doesn't work Click on "I AGREE", and then "Watch on Youtube" (this worked for me). Or click on this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtMssTSnRHU.

20th March 2022, 08:21 AM	#147
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 20,507	Originally Posted by Gaetan You will live in a cartel of criminals. You mean like the Russian kleptocracy?
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

20th March 2022, 09:14 AM	#148
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by dudalb That is bat crap crazy. SMall arms is the one area of military equipment where the Russians have been good at, because they avoided complexity, made is soldier friendly and soldier proof, and generally followed the rule of KISS....Keep It Simple, Stupid. Now they throw that away. I smell one of Putin Oligrach buddies at work here pawning off the AN94 to make a profit. USA had trials of similar weapon concepts, the idea is to fire several shots quickly before recoil kicks in. USA went for rounds with multiple projectiles, Russia tried to speed up the rate of fire for a couple of consecutive rounds and try to delay the recoil.

20th March 2022, 09:24 AM	#149
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	[Unusual the video not playing, there's not usually any problem with Forgotten Weapons playing on other sites.

20th March 2022, 09:31 AM	#150
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 29,227	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop [Unusual the video not playing, there's not usually any problem with Forgotten Weapons playing on other sites. Nor with those videos of theirs that you have linked to previously. But it says that the video owner has disabled embedding. So maybe they're doing something different with this.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

20th March 2022, 10:02 AM	#151
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,545	Originally Posted by dudalb That is bat crap crazy. SMall arms is the one area of military equipment where the Russians have been good at, because they avoided complexity, made is soldier friendly and soldier proof, and generally followed the rule of KISS....Keep It Simple, Stupid. Now they throw that away. I smell one of Putin Oligrach buddies at work here pawning off the AN94 to make a profit. As far as I can tell, the Russian Federation made plans across the board to upgrade every military arm to next-generation weapons on par with the leading edge of their western counterparts... ... And then immediately discovered it was unable to follow through on any of them. The T-14 Armata ended up being dismissed by the Russian Minster of Defense, with the excuse that sure, they could replace all the obsolete tanks in Russian service, but why bother when those tanks were working just fine and had a healthy foreign market. The Su-50 falls short on stealth shape, stealth coating, and thrust vectoring. Their entire capital ship outlay is circling the drain. Apparently their new rifle is Slav Space Magic. And now we're learning that even their decision to just keep upgrading their existing stuff isn't bearing the expected fruit. Western analysts are probably wondering if even their vaunted air defense systems are operational as claimed.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

20th March 2022, 10:17 AM	#152
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,398	Originally Posted by Gaetan ...Bush attaked Iraq and they wasn't even a threat to US, Putin had more reasons to attact Ukraine than Bush had to attact Iraq. ... Since you somehow make "being a threat to..." an important category, I am reminded that you forgot (twice) to answer my questions: Would you also consider this proposal fair? -> Russia could do what they want as long they are not a threat to their neighbour If you think this is a fair proposal, the follow-up question asks itself: Is Russia a threat to their neighbors? Like... Is Russia a threat to Ukraine? Is Russia a threat to Georgia? Is Russia a threat to Estonia? Is Russia a threat to Kazakhstan? Is Russia a threat to Moldova? Is Russia a threat to Armenia? Is Russia a threat to Poland, the UK, Germany, France...?
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

20th March 2022, 10:20 AM	#153
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,398	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote You mean like the Russian kleptocracy? Someone pointed out the other day that Russia is not so much a kleptocracy (where everybody wields the power and money they manage to grab) and rather a mafia state (where a single patron, a robber king, calls all the shots).
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

20th March 2022, 10:22 AM	#154
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 29,227	Originally Posted by theprestige As far as I can tell, the Russian Federation made plans across the board to upgrade every military arm to next-generation weapons on par with the leading edge of their western counterparts... ... And then immediately discovered it was unable to follow through on any of them. The T-14 Armata ended up being dismissed by the Russian Minster of Defense, with the excuse that sure, they could replace all the obsolete tanks in Russian service, but why bother when those tanks were working just fine and had a healthy foreign market. The Su-50 falls short on stealth shape, stealth coating, and thrust vectoring. Their entire capital ship outlay is circling the drain. Apparently their new rifle is Slav Space Magic. And now we're learning that even their decision to just keep upgrading their existing stuff isn't bearing the expected fruit. Western analysts are probably wondering if even their vaunted air defense systems are operational as claimed. Yup. Lots of stuff that impresses on a May Day parade, or even in propaganda videos. Not so much on the stuff that keeps them working. Trying to compete with the US in every field of technology whilst having a defence budget the size of the UK's and an economy roughly half the UK's is going to miss on all the other stuff that's needed - especially if one also is trying to have armed forces that are five times the UK's in size on that budget.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

20th March 2022, 10:53 AM	#155
Axxman300 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Central California Coast Posts: 6,546	Originally Posted by Gaetan Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country. NO. It's up to the lesser group to make the aggressor pay for every inch of ground in blood. Evil must be punched in the face.
	__________________ Disingenuous Piranha

20th March 2022, 10:57 AM	#156
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,672	Originally Posted by Oystein Since you somehow make "being a threat to..." an important category, I am reminded that you forgot (twice) to answer my questions: Would you also consider this proposal fair? -> Russia could do what they want as long they are not a threat to their neighbour If you think this is a fair proposal, the follow-up question asks itself: Is Russia a threat to their neighbors? Like... Is Russia a threat to Ukraine? Is Russia a threat to Georgia? Is Russia a threat to Estonia? Is Russia a threat to Kazakhstan? Is Russia a threat to Moldova? Is Russia a threat to Armenia? Is Russia a threat to Poland, the UK, Germany, France...? All countries are a potential threat to each other if they have weapons my proposal is to get rid of all weapons as well as the one you buy in stores.
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,672

20th March 2022, 11:00 AM	#157
Axxman300 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Central California Coast Posts: 6,546	Originally Posted by Gaetan That's right, they attacked Ukraine as a prevention not to be the weakest, you can't blame the russian to do the samathing you do, Bush attaked Iraq and they wasn't even a threat to US, Putin had more reasons to attact Ukraine than Bush had to attact Iraq. You are a bunch of unjust hypocrites. if you break the world balance you will live in the most corrupt world you have ever seen, You will live in a cartel of criminals. Did the Ukraine invade a neighboring country only to have a Russian-led coalition drive them out, establish a No-Fly-Zone, and demand they destroy their WMD programs only to play games for a decade with UNSCOM? Nope. Did the US flatten every city in Iraq? Nope. Did Iraq beg us to return when ISIS became a threat? Yup. Here's a fun note. The Iraqis asked us to return. In Ukraine, civilians picked up guns because they'd rather die than live under Russian rule again. You cannot have a clearer picture of the difference between the US and Russia.
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20th March 2022, 11:01 AM	#158
Axxman300 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Central California Coast Posts: 6,546	That hypersonic missile turns out to be a big yawn. And we can track it. Thanks, Putin.
	__________________ Disingenuous Piranha