[Split Thread] Is Ukraine to blame for Putin's invasion - Page 5

theprestige · 20th March 2022, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Axxman300

That hypersonic missile turns out to be a big yawn. And we can track it. Thanks, Putin.

We can track it? Where are you getting that from?

All I'm seeing is a video clip of the target, as it is struck by... something.

"We can track it" would actually be a claim that this missile was detected by western air defense systems on its way to the target, with the implication that it could be followed and shot down by those systems.

As far as I know, the west has no air defense systems inside Ukraine, capable of even testing whether Russia's hypersonics can be tracked yet.

Oystein · 20th March 2022, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

All countries are a potential threat to each other if they have weapons my proposal is to get rid of all weapons as well as the one you buy in stores.

[ETA]Ah. "Potentially". No surprise you would alter the question by inserting a weasel word to evade a straight and honest answer. [/ETA]

Is Georgia a threat to Russia? [ETA]Actually or just "Potentially"?[/ETA]

Is a toddler a threat to you? [ETA]Actually or just "Potentially"?[/ETA]

Can you link to the post where you propose that Russia get rid of all weapons, as obviously, Russia is a clear and present threat to Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, while none of those is a present threat to Russia.

In light of your standards, disarming Russia is the ONLY proper course of action, not?

Oystein · 20th March 2022, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

...Iraqis who die, if you trust your medias everything was nice ...

No. Silly.

trustbutverify · 20th March 2022, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

All countries are a potential threat to each other if they have weapons my proposal is to get rid of all weapons as well as the one you buy in stores.

No, your proposal is to get rid of all weapons in the hands of people resisting your neo-fascist agenda, and leave them at the mercy of those who promote it.

Oystein · 20th March 2022, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Axxman300

That hypersonic missile turns out to be a big yawn. And we can track it. Thanks, Putin.

Coincidentally, I just opened a thread about the technical ins and outs of Russian hypersonic missiles in Science, Tech and all that stuff:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=357710

trustbutverify · 20th March 2022, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Where was the one million Iraqis who die, if you trust your medias everything was nice but this not the reality, this is just incredible. This is just in the war it doesn't take into account the people who die of starvation before it because of the embargo.

The number of Iraqi war causalities due to the US invasion was a small fraction of that nonsense you've read on the internet.

trustbutverify · 20th March 2022, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country.

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

Which is why you blame the Lebanese and Palestinians for the destruction done to them, right?

How about you answer my question?

gabeygoat · 20th March 2022, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction.

I know others have addressed this, but I need clarification . Surely you realize that you are arguing in favor of fascism?

theprestige · 20th March 2022, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country.

You're probably the only person on the planet who still thinks Russia is the stronger one in this conflict. I'm pretty sure even Putin has figured it out by now.

Axxman300 · 20th March 2022, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

We can track it? Where are you getting that from?

All I'm seeing is a video clip of the target, as it is struck by... something.

"We can track it" would actually be a claim that this missile was detected by western air defense systems on its way to the target, with the implication that it could be followed and shot down by those systems.

As far as I know, the west has no air defense systems inside Ukraine, capable of even testing whether Russia's hypersonics can be tracked yet.

Here's the thing. The Russians lied about the target they recorded being struck in that video, it was actually in eastern Ukraine, near the Russian border. I was told we tracked it, not how. I suspect a couple of things, though. I think we monitor the Mig-31 base where those weapons are stored. The Migs have been modified to carry the missile. The funny thing is that since I posted that we tracked it, there is now speculation that it wasn't a hypersonic missile based on the known target, and target location. Russia has a limited number of those missiles, so why waste it on a low-priority target.

We know it was low-priority because the Russian drone wasn't shot down, suggesting the lack of anti-aircraft protection. And that means the Russians hit something the Ukrainians don't care about. That or it was used on another target not shown in the video.

Russians are fun.

Captain_Swoop · 20th March 2022, 06:31 PM

Who said it was hypersonic and who tracked it?
Not much 'official' confirmation, just a news report of an un-named 'insider' and a claim by the Russians.

Cosmic Yak · 20th March 2022, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Where was the one million Iraqis who die, if you trust your medias everything was nice but this not the reality, this is just incredible. This is just in the war it doesn't take into account the people who die of starvation before it because of the embargo.

Told you before, and I'll tell you again, that ' million' figure is most likely a wild exaggeration, and around 85% of Iraqi casualties were caused by Iraqis killing each other.
You may well be immune to facts, but others reading your posts may be fooled into thinking there is some truth in them, hence this post of mine. I have no doubt you will continue to post nonsense regardless of the facts.
Oh, and it was already pointed out, but 'my media' gave full and graphic reports on the suffering of Iraqis throughout the invasion and occupation. Which specific media outlets do you claim painted this false rosy picture of Iraq?

Axxman300 · 21st March 2022, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Who said it was hypersonic and who tracked it?
Not much 'official' confirmation, just a news report of an un-named 'insider' and a claim by the Russians.

The US confirmed it...but who knows?

The Great Zaganza · 21st March 2022, 12:17 AM

It should be very easy to track a hypersonic missile via infrared satellite (the same type used to monitor for ICBM launches).
That doesn't mean that this would give enough telemetry to do much about it.

erlando · 21st March 2022, 03:21 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country.

Never go full fascist!

JoeMorgue · 21st March 2022, 08:08 AM

As with a lot of things we're pointing and laughing at a "crazy" idea that is just a very slightly reworded version of a mainstream idea that doesn't get anywhere near this amount of grief.

Gaetan is just describing perfectly mainstream passivism with like 5-10% tops more crazy sprinkled on it. And as with most all things the crazy is more in the tone and formatting than it is anything he's actually saying.

Strip away the crazy performance art and nothing he's saying is all that non-commonplace of an idea.

JoeMorgue · 21st March 2022, 09:29 AM

"Everyone should just do X" isn't a philosophy or a solution or a plan, it's a child's understanding how actual problems in the real world work.

Michel H · 21st March 2022, 10:48 AM

Breaking News: the world's strongest girl responds to Arnold

I quote RT.com:

Quote:

Schwarzenegger accused of breaking promise on Ukraine by ‘world’s strongest girl’ (VIDEO)

Edited by sarge:

edited for rule 4 violation

There is a wikipedia page about Maryana Naumova: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryana_Naumova.

This young lady seems smart, but I wonder if she could voice publicly disagreement with Putin's "special military operation", the consequences could be serious for her. Also, she is perhaps not fully aware of the large-scale attacks on civilian targets.

junkshop · 21st March 2022, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

...I quote RT.com...

But of course you do. I'd expect nothing else.

ETA - from your Wikipedia link:

Quote:

...At the 2016 Arnolds Sports Festival she [Naumova] participated in the SSP Nutrition Pro Raw Bench competition. She lifted 110 kg (240 lb) and placed third, but was later disqualified due to a positive doping test and suspended from lifting for two years...

JoeMorgue · 21st March 2022, 11:01 AM

Really? An "influencer?"

You share the ********* propaganda dude.

theprestige · 21st March 2022, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

Also, she is perhaps not fully aware of the large-scale attacks on civilian targets.

Or perhaps she is aware, and is still taking Putin's side. You can totally see how someone might do that, yeah?

Michel H · 21st March 2022, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by junkshop

But of course you do. I'd expect nothing else.

I don't quote just RT.com on this forum. Look at the opening post of this thread (though I didn't start this thread myself), I quoted theatlantic.com, reuters.com, atlanticcouncil.org, and wikipedia.

I believe it is important to keep a plurality of sources. I find the BBC somewhat depressing, because it is constantly showing front page the devastation brought about by the bombs, shells and missiles.

It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Zelensky would just have to accept that Crimea is Russian, and that both Donbass republics are independent. But he doesn't want to: https://www.rt.com/russia/552345-ukr...to-compromise/.

Such stubbornness from the leaders of Ukraine is probably inexcusable.

erlando · 21st March 2022, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Zelensky would just have to accept that Crimea is Russian, and that both Donbass republics are independent.

There. Are. No. Such. Republics.

junkshop · 21st March 2022, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

..I find the BBC somewhat depressing, because it is constantly showing front page the devastation brought about by the bombs, shells and missiles...

War is depressing, what with all the devastation brought about by the bombs, shells and missiles.

Originally Posted by Michel H

..It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Zelensky would just have to accept that Crimea is Russian, and that both Donbass republics are independent. But he doesn't want to: https://www.rt.com/russia/552345-ukr...to-compromise/.

Such stubbornness from the leaders of Ukraine is probably inexcusable.

It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Putin would just have to accept that Crimea is Ukranian, and that both Donbass 'republics' are Ukranian. But he doesn't want to.

Such stubbornness from the leader of Russia is utterly inexcusable.

Michel H · 21st March 2022, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by erlando

There. Are. No. Such. Republics.

See these pages (if necessary):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donets...e%27s_Republic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhans...e%27s_Republic.

Ukraine and the West seem to have completely lost interest in democracy.

They could say: let's organize some good referendums, with international monitors.

But no ....

JoeMorgue · 21st March 2022, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

I believe it is important to keep a plurality of sources. I find the BBC somewhat depressing, because it is constantly showing front page the devastation brought about by the bombs, shells and missiles.

Alright the mask slipped. This has gotta be a bit.

Quote:

It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Zelensky would just have to accept that Crimea is Russian, and that both Donbass republics are independent.

And it would be so easy and logical to stop the housewife from being beaten; perhaps the housewife just has to agree to stop burning the roast.

catsmate · 21st March 2022, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

So why does Russia do it?

Oil, grain, minerals, warm-water port, aggrandisement...

catsmate · 21st March 2022, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

USA had trials of similar weapon concepts, the idea is to fire several shots quickly before recoil kicks in. USA went for rounds with multiple projectiles, Russia tried to speed up the rate of fire for a couple of consecutive rounds and try to delay the recoil.

There was also the G-11 and it's super-burst model.
There have been duplex cartridges since the sixties, the Soviets have them in service for 12.7x108mm

SpitfireIX · 21st March 2022, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Zelensky would just have to accept that Crimea is Russian, and that both Donbass republics are independent. But he doesn't want to: https://www.rt.com/russia/552345-ukr...to-compromise/.

Such stubbornness from the leaders of Ukraine is probably inexcusable.

As has been explained to you, Russia agreed to respect the territorial integrity of Ukraine in return for Ukraine's giving up its nuclear weapons. Russia is violating that treaty. Why is this so hard for you to accept?

dudalb · 21st March 2022, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by varwoche

The sluts deserve it.

SPeaking of sluts..the Ukraine deserved it for not surredering to Putin is being pitched by Marjorie Taylor Green....

Captain_Swoop · 21st March 2022, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

There was also the G-11 and it's super-burst model.
There have been duplex cartridges since the sixties, the Soviets have them in service for 12.7x108mm

They are rubbish though, hence the over coplex alternatives.

Forgotten weapons has a playlist of videos on various SPIW, Salvo and ACR trials weapons.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...UVB3kufdJA8LGM

Wildy · 21st March 2022, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Michel H

See these pages (if necessary):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donets...e%27s_Republic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhans...e%27s_Republic.

Ukraine and the West seem to have completely lost interest in democracy.

They could say: let's organize some good referendums, with international monitors.

But no ....

Ukraine isn't required to hold a referendum on the status of Russian puppet nations.

Hercules56 · 21st March 2022, 06:00 PM

Ukraine has made a lot of very stupid and bigoted mistakes regarding Crimea, Donbass and Russians in Ukraine.

However none of this in any way justifies the disgusting war Russia is committing against the people of Ukraine. Russia has become a war criminal state. Putin must be tried at The Hague.

jimbob · 22nd March 2022, 12:46 AM

The topic is the blame for the invasion of Ukraine not the other posters and their beliefs

Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:jimbob

Marras · 22nd March 2022, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Zelensky would just have to accept that Crimea is Russian, and that both Donbass republics are independent. But he doesn't want to: https://www.rt.com/russia/552345-ukr...to-compromise/.

You forget Putin's two main demands: denazifying Ukraine and demilitarizing Ukraine.

Here "denazifying" doesn't mean what it means to ordinary people, but it means that Ukraine needs to install a puppet government of Putin's corrupt cronies and imprisoning the current government.

Delimiltarizing Ukraine means what it says on the tin: dismantle Ukrainian army so that Putin can annex Ukraine at will whenever he wants to do it.

Oystein · 22nd March 2022, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Wildy

Ukraine isn't required to hold a referendum on the status of Russian puppet nations.

Zelenskyy just proposed to put the terms of any cease fire agreement up for referendum with the Ukrainian people.

I wonder why Michel H, who never tires of pointing out that Crimea had a referendum and that this is what counts, demands that "Zelenskyy", rather than the Ukrainian people, surrender Crimea, Donbas, possibly Mariupol and any other loot that Putin (and yes, Putin, not the Russian people via referendum) might put in such an agreement.
Are there perhaps double standards at play?

Michel H · 22nd March 2022, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Oystein

Zelenskyy just proposed to put the terms of any cease fire agreement up for referendum with the Ukrainian people.

I wonder why Michel H, who never tires of pointing out that Crimea had a referendum and that this is what counts, demands that "Zelenskyy", rather than the Ukrainian people, surrender Crimea, Donbas, possibly Mariupol and any other loot that Putin (and yes, Putin, not the Russian people via referendum) might put in such an agreement.
Are there perhaps double standards at play?

I would not feel comfortable with Putin being able to annex Mariupol or the whole Donbass region because of his invasion (which I still view as a mistake and a crime, even though I think Russia was unfairly persecuted through very severe sanctions because of its annexation of Crimea in 2014).

Persecution through excessive sanctions, a "tool" widely used by the United States, tends to generate anger and human suffering within populations, which may translate into large military expenditures, which tragic consequences when the military hardware is put to use.

I do not know if Zelensky has the constitutional power to give up Crimea, and the two Donbass republics (Donetsk and Lugansk, also sometimes spelled Luhansk). But he probably has currently a lot of influence in his country, he seems to be popular, and he should put his large influence and "prestige" to good use.

To avoid any misunderstanding, I am no Putin supporter, but I believe the winning strategy for Ukraine and the world, is for Ukraine to surrender Crimea and the two Donbass republics (with no territorial gains for Putin because of his invasion), and to promise that it won't join NATO for at least five years.

I also think that the Ukrainian leadership should work on improving its relation with Russia, however incredibly painful this may be.

Marras · 22nd March 2022, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

To avoid any misunderstanding, I am no Putin supporter, but I believe the winning strategy for Ukraine and the world, is for Ukraine to surrender Crimea and the two Donbass republics (with no territorial gains for Putin because of his invasion), and to promise that it won't join NATO for at least five years.

You still ignore that Putin is demanding to install his own puppet government to Ukraine and to disband Ukraine's army.

JoeMorgue · 22nd March 2022, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

To avoid any misunderstanding, I am no Putin supporter.

That's a lie. That is an intentional falsehood said with motive. That is a wrong statement said while knowing it is a wrong statement. That is a dishonest statement made knowingly.

Darat · 22nd March 2022, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Marras

You still ignore that Putin is demanding to install his own puppet government to Ukraine and to disband Ukraine's army.

Mere details!

20th March 2022, 11:28 AM	#161
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,545	Originally Posted by Axxman300 That hypersonic missile turns out to be a big yawn. And we can track it. Thanks, Putin. We can track it? Where are you getting that from? All I'm seeing is a video clip of the target, as it is struck by... something. "We can track it" would actually be a claim that this missile was detected by western air defense systems on its way to the target, with the implication that it could be followed and shot down by those systems. As far as I know, the west has no air defense systems inside Ukraine, capable of even testing whether Russia's hypersonics can be tracked yet.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

20th March 2022, 11:37 AM	#162
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,398	Originally Posted by Gaetan All countries are a potential threat to each other if they have weapons my proposal is to get rid of all weapons as well as the one you buy in stores. [ETA]Ah. "Potentially". No surprise you would alter the question by inserting a weasel word to evade a straight and honest answer. [/ETA] Is Georgia a threat to Russia? [ETA]Actually or just "Potentially"?[/ETA] Is a toddler a threat to you? [ETA]Actually or just "Potentially"?[/ETA] Can you link to the post where you propose that Russia get rid of all weapons, as obviously, Russia is a clear and present threat to Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, while none of those is a present threat to Russia. In light of your standards, disarming Russia is the ONLY proper course of action, not?
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) Last edited by Oystein; 20th March 2022 at 11:41 AM. Reason: ETA as tagged

20th March 2022, 11:39 AM	#163
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,398	Originally Posted by Gaetan ...Iraqis who die, if you trust your medias everything was nice ... No. Silly.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

20th March 2022, 11:42 AM	#164
trustbutverify Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 10,051	Originally Posted by Gaetan All countries are a potential threat to each other if they have weapons my proposal is to get rid of all weapons as well as the one you buy in stores. No, your proposal is to get rid of all weapons in the hands of people resisting your neo-fascist agenda, and leave them at the mercy of those who promote it.
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

20th March 2022, 11:42 AM	#165
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,398	Originally Posted by Axxman300 That hypersonic missile turns out to be a big yawn. And we can track it. Thanks, Putin. Coincidentally, I just opened a thread about the technical ins and outs of Russian hypersonic missiles in Science, Tech and all that stuff: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=357710
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

20th March 2022, 11:46 AM	#166
trustbutverify Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 10,051	Originally Posted by Gaetan Where was the one million Iraqis who die, if you trust your medias everything was nice but this not the reality, this is just incredible. This is just in the war it doesn't take into account the people who die of starvation before it because of the embargo. The number of Iraqi war causalities due to the US invasion was a small fraction of that nonsense you've read on the internet.
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

20th March 2022, 11:49 AM	#167
trustbutverify Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 10,051	Originally Posted by Gaetan Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country. Originally Posted by trustbutverify Which is why you blame the Lebanese and Palestinians for the destruction done to them, right? How about you answer my question?
	__________________ "To me, Hitler is the greatest man who ever lived. He truly is without fault, so simple and at the same time possessed of masculine strength" -Leni Riefenstahl Wollen owns the stage

20th March 2022, 12:16 PM	#168
gabeygoat Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hard Corvallis Oregon Posts: 1,686	Originally Posted by Gaetan Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction. I know others have addressed this, but I need clarification . Surely you realize that you are arguing in favor of fascism?
	__________________ "May I interest you in some coconut milk?" ~Akhenaten Wallabe Esq

20th March 2022, 12:28 PM	#169
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,545	Originally Posted by Gaetan Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country. You're probably the only person on the planet who still thinks Russia is the stronger one in this conflict. I'm pretty sure even Putin has figured it out by now.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

20th March 2022, 04:29 PM	#170
Axxman300 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Central California Coast Posts: 6,546	Originally Posted by theprestige We can track it? Where are you getting that from? All I'm seeing is a video clip of the target, as it is struck by... something. "We can track it" would actually be a claim that this missile was detected by western air defense systems on its way to the target, with the implication that it could be followed and shot down by those systems. As far as I know, the west has no air defense systems inside Ukraine, capable of even testing whether Russia's hypersonics can be tracked yet. Here's the thing. The Russians lied about the target they recorded being struck in that video, it was actually in eastern Ukraine, near the Russian border. I was told we tracked it, not how. I suspect a couple of things, though. I think we monitor the Mig-31 base where those weapons are stored. The Migs have been modified to carry the missile. The funny thing is that since I posted that we tracked it, there is now speculation that it wasn't a hypersonic missile based on the known target, and target location. Russia has a limited number of those missiles, so why waste it on a low-priority target. We know it was low-priority because the Russian drone wasn't shot down, suggesting the lack of anti-aircraft protection. And that means the Russians hit something the Ukrainians don't care about. That or it was used on another target not shown in the video. Russians are fun.
	__________________ Disingenuous Piranha

20th March 2022, 06:31 PM	#171
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Who said it was hypersonic and who tracked it? Not much 'official' confirmation, just a news report of an un-named 'insider' and a claim by the Russians.

20th March 2022, 10:32 PM	#172
Cosmic Yak Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand. Posts: 6,367	Originally Posted by Gaetan Where was the one million Iraqis who die, if you trust your medias everything was nice but this not the reality, this is just incredible. This is just in the war it doesn't take into account the people who die of starvation before it because of the embargo. Told you before, and I'll tell you again, that ' million' figure is most likely a wild exaggeration, and around 85% of Iraqi casualties were caused by Iraqis killing each other. You may well be immune to facts, but others reading your posts may be fooled into thinking there is some truth in them, hence this post of mine. I have no doubt you will continue to post nonsense regardless of the facts. Oh, and it was already pointed out, but 'my media' gave full and graphic reports on the suffering of Iraqis throughout the invasion and occupation. Which specific media outlets do you claim painted this false rosy picture of Iraq?
	__________________ 'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt Cosmic Yak on this forum.

21st March 2022, 12:00 AM	#173
Axxman300 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Central California Coast Posts: 6,546	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Who said it was hypersonic and who tracked it? Not much 'official' confirmation, just a news report of an un-named 'insider' and a claim by the Russians. The US confirmed it...but who knows?
	__________________ Disingenuous Piranha

21st March 2022, 12:17 AM	#174
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 19,546	It should be very easy to track a hypersonic missile via infrared satellite (the same type used to monitor for ICBM launches). That doesn't mean that this would give enough telemetry to do much about it.
	__________________ "The only true paradise is paradise lost" Marcel Proust

21st March 2022, 03:21 AM	#175
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,403	Originally Posted by Gaetan Because it's up to the weakest to lay down their arms to avoid its destruction, if you are at war and you see that the enemy force is stronger than yours it is useless and stupid to want to fight. You have to be wise and avoid the lost of human life and the destruction of your country. Never go full fascist!
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,403	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

21st March 2022, 08:08 AM	#176
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	As with a lot of things we're pointing and laughing at a "crazy" idea that is just a very slightly reworded version of a mainstream idea that doesn't get anywhere near this amount of grief. Gaetan is just describing perfectly mainstream passivism with like 5-10% tops more crazy sprinkled on it. And as with most all things the crazy is more in the tone and formatting than it is anything he's actually saying. Strip away the crazy performance art and nothing he's saying is all that non-commonplace of an idea.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

21st March 2022, 09:29 AM	#177
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	"Everyone should just do X" isn't a philosophy or a solution or a plan, it's a child's understanding how actual problems in the real world work.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

21st March 2022, 10:56 AM	#179
junkshop Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: in the kitchen Posts: 1,523	Originally Posted by Michel H ...I quote RT.com... But of course you do. I'd expect nothing else. ETA - from your Wikipedia link: Quote: ...At the 2016 Arnolds Sports Festival she [Naumova] participated in the SSP Nutrition Pro Raw Bench competition. She lifted 110 kg (240 lb) and placed third, but was later disqualified due to a positive doping test and suspended from lifting for two years...
	__________________ Not a Cockney, but possibly Australian...I am Dick Van Dyke. Last edited by junkshop; 21st March 2022 at 11:04 AM.

21st March 2022, 11:01 AM	#180
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	Really? An "influencer?" You share the ********* propaganda dude.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

21st March 2022, 11:21 AM	#181
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,545	Originally Posted by Michel H Also, she is perhaps not fully aware of the large-scale attacks on civilian targets. Or perhaps she is aware, and is still taking Putin's side. You can totally see how someone might do that, yeah?
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

21st March 2022, 11:36 AM	#182
Michel H Illuminator Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,325	Originally Posted by junkshop But of course you do. I'd expect nothing else. I don't quote just RT.com on this forum. Look at the opening post of this thread (though I didn't start this thread myself), I quoted theatlantic.com, reuters.com, atlanticcouncil.org, and wikipedia. I believe it is important to keep a plurality of sources. I find the BBC somewhat depressing, because it is constantly showing front page the devastation brought about by the bombs, shells and missiles. It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Zelensky would just have to accept that Crimea is Russian, and that both Donbass republics are independent. But he doesn't want to: https://www.rt.com/russia/552345-ukr...to-compromise/. Such stubbornness from the leaders of Ukraine is probably inexcusable.
	Last edited by Michel H; 21st March 2022 at 11:37 AM.

21st March 2022, 11:45 AM	#183
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,403	Originally Posted by Michel H It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Zelensky would just have to accept that Crimea is Russian, and that both Donbass republics are independent. There. Are. No. Such. Republics.
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,403	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

21st March 2022, 12:10 PM	#184
junkshop Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: in the kitchen Posts: 1,523	Originally Posted by Michel H ..I find the BBC somewhat depressing, because it is constantly showing front page the devastation brought about by the bombs, shells and missiles... War is depressing, what with all the devastation brought about by the bombs, shells and missiles. Originally Posted by Michel H ..It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Zelensky would just have to accept that Crimea is Russian, and that both Donbass republics are independent. But he doesn't want to: https://www.rt.com/russia/552345-ukr...to-compromise/. Such stubbornness from the leaders of Ukraine is probably inexcusable. It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Putin would just have to accept that Crimea is Ukranian, and that both Donbass 'republics' are Ukranian. But he doesn't want to. Such stubbornness from the leader of Russia is utterly inexcusable.
	__________________ Not a Cockney, but possibly Australian...I am Dick Van Dyke. Last edited by junkshop; 21st March 2022 at 12:12 PM.

21st March 2022, 12:11 PM	#185
Michel H Illuminator Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,325	Originally Posted by erlando There. Are. No. Such. Republics. See these pages (if necessary): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donets...e%27s_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhans...e%27s_Republic. Ukraine and the West seem to have completely lost interest in democracy. They could say: let's organize some good referendums, with international monitors. But no ....

21st March 2022, 12:12 PM	#186
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	Originally Posted by Michel H I believe it is important to keep a plurality of sources. I find the BBC somewhat depressing, because it is constantly showing front page the devastation brought about by the bombs, shells and missiles. Alright the mask slipped. This has gotta be a bit. Quote: It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Zelensky would just have to accept that Crimea is Russian, and that both Donbass republics are independent. And it would be so easy and logical to stop the housewife from being beaten; perhaps the housewife just has to agree to stop burning the roast.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

21st March 2022, 12:26 PM	#187
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop So why does Russia do it? Oil, grain, minerals, warm-water port, aggrandisement...
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

21st March 2022, 12:30 PM	#188
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop USA had trials of similar weapon concepts, the idea is to fire several shots quickly before recoil kicks in. USA went for rounds with multiple projectiles, Russia tried to speed up the rate of fire for a couple of consecutive rounds and try to delay the recoil. There was also the G-11 and it's super-burst model. There have been duplex cartridges since the sixties, the Soviets have them in service for 12.7x108mm
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

21st March 2022, 01:04 PM	#189
SpitfireIX Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Location: Niceville, Florida, USA Posts: 5,763	Originally Posted by Michel H It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Zelensky would just have to accept that Crimea is Russian, and that both Donbass republics are independent. But he doesn't want to: https://www.rt.com/russia/552345-ukr...to-compromise/. Such stubbornness from the leaders of Ukraine is probably inexcusable. As has been explained to you, Russia agreed to respect the territorial integrity of Ukraine in return for Ukraine's giving up its nuclear weapons. Russia is violating that treaty. Why is this so hard for you to accept?
	__________________ "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz

21st March 2022, 01:13 PM	#190
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,771	Originally Posted by varwoche The sluts deserve it. SPeaking of sluts..the Ukraine deserved it for not surredering to Putin is being pitched by Marjorie Taylor Green....
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

21st March 2022, 03:08 PM	#191
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by catsmate There was also the G-11 and it's super-burst model. There have been duplex cartridges since the sixties, the Soviets have them in service for 12.7x108mm They are rubbish though, hence the over coplex alternatives. Forgotten weapons has a playlist of videos on various SPIW, Salvo and ACR trials weapons. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...UVB3kufdJA8LGM
	Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 21st March 2022 at 03:12 PM.

21st March 2022, 04:43 PM	#192
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 11,651	Originally Posted by Michel H See these pages (if necessary): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donets...e%27s_Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhans...e%27s_Republic. Ukraine and the West seem to have completely lost interest in democracy. They could say: let's organize some good referendums, with international monitors. But no .... Ukraine isn't required to hold a referendum on the status of Russian puppet nations.
	__________________

21st March 2022, 06:00 PM	#193
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,358	Ukraine has made a lot of very stupid and bigoted mistakes regarding Crimea, Donbass and Russians in Ukraine. However none of this in any way justifies the disgusting war Russia is committing against the people of Ukraine. Russia has become a war criminal state. Putin must be tried at The Hague.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,358

22nd March 2022, 04:36 AM	#195
Marras Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 416	Originally Posted by Michel H It would be so easy and logical to stop this war: perhaps Zelensky would just have to accept that Crimea is Russian, and that both Donbass republics are independent. But he doesn't want to: https://www.rt.com/russia/552345-ukr...to-compromise/. You forget Putin's two main demands: denazifying Ukraine and demilitarizing Ukraine. Here "denazifying" doesn't mean what it means to ordinary people, but it means that Ukraine needs to install a puppet government of Putin's corrupt cronies and imprisoning the current government. Delimiltarizing Ukraine means what it says on the tin: dismantle Ukrainian army so that Putin can annex Ukraine at will whenever he wants to do it.
Marras Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 416

22nd March 2022, 04:39 AM	#196
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,398	Originally Posted by Wildy Ukraine isn't required to hold a referendum on the status of Russian puppet nations. Zelenskyy just proposed to put the terms of any cease fire agreement up for referendum with the Ukrainian people. I wonder why Michel H, who never tires of pointing out that Crimea had a referendum and that this is what counts, demands that "Zelenskyy", rather than the Ukrainian people, surrender Crimea, Donbas, possibly Mariupol and any other loot that Putin (and yes, Putin, not the Russian people via referendum) might put in such an agreement. Are there perhaps double standards at play?
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

22nd March 2022, 08:19 AM	#197
Michel H Illuminator Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,325	Originally Posted by Oystein Zelenskyy just proposed to put the terms of any cease fire agreement up for referendum with the Ukrainian people. I wonder why Michel H, who never tires of pointing out that Crimea had a referendum and that this is what counts, demands that "Zelenskyy", rather than the Ukrainian people, surrender Crimea, Donbas, possibly Mariupol and any other loot that Putin (and yes, Putin, not the Russian people via referendum) might put in such an agreement. Are there perhaps double standards at play? I would not feel comfortable with Putin being able to annex Mariupol or the whole Donbass region because of his invasion (which I still view as a mistake and a crime, even though I think Russia was unfairly persecuted through very severe sanctions because of its annexation of Crimea in 2014). Persecution through excessive sanctions, a "tool" widely used by the United States, tends to generate anger and human suffering within populations, which may translate into large military expenditures, which tragic consequences when the military hardware is put to use. I do not know if Zelensky has the constitutional power to give up Crimea, and the two Donbass republics (Donetsk and Lugansk, also sometimes spelled Luhansk). But he probably has currently a lot of influence in his country, he seems to be popular, and he should put his large influence and "prestige" to good use. To avoid any misunderstanding, I am no Putin supporter, but I believe the winning strategy for Ukraine and the world, is for Ukraine to surrender Crimea and the two Donbass republics (with no territorial gains for Putin because of his invasion), and to promise that it won't join NATO for at least five years. I also think that the Ukrainian leadership should work on improving its relation with Russia, however incredibly painful this may be.