[Split Thread] Is Ukraine to blame for Putin's invasion - Page 6

Michel H · 22nd March 2022, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

Breaking News: the world's strongest girl responds to Arnold

I quote RT.com:

Edited by sarge:

edited for rule 4 violation

There is a wikipedia page about Maryana Naumova: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryana_Naumova.

This young lady seems smart, but I wonder if she could voice publicly disagreement with Putin's "special military operation", the consequences could be serious for her. Also, she is perhaps not fully aware of the large-scale attacks on civilian targets.

It seems that I forgot to post the link yesterday for this article about Maryana Naumova's response to Schwarzenegger: https://www.rt.com/sport/552390-arno...ryana-naumova/.

Quote:

"Obviously, you didn't work on the letters I gave you, even though you promised," Naumova told the former Governor of California, adding that the Alley of Angels memorial in Donetsk is a memorial to children "killed by bullets and bombs of the Ukrainian army."

(just one paragraph)

If posters in this thread want to become real experts on the issue of Ukraine's responsability, it is better to read from various sources to have a complete picture.

Michel H · 22nd March 2022, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Marras

You still ignore that Putin is demanding to install his own puppet government to Ukraine and to disband Ukraine's army.

Normally, this is not something that I would find acceptable.

Perhaps Zelensky should prove that he is a good leader by making (quickly enough) the necessary territorial concessions:

Quote:

Moscow further said it wanted the “demilitarization” and “denazification” of Ukraine, as well as for Kiev to recognize Crimea as a part of Russia, and the republics in Donetsk and Lugansk as independent states.

(https://www.rt.com/russia/552471-kre...ky-referendum/)

If Kiev recognizes Crimea as a part of Russia, and the Donetsk and Lugansk republics as independent (together with a promise that it won't join NATO for at least five years), then perhaps it will become possible to convince Moscow to stop its offensive, and to protect the current democratic government of Ukraine and its military.

There is also another aspect: once Ukraine has made the necessary concessions (that it probably should have made a long time ago), it will become easier to argue for a Western military intervention to protect Ukraine (as long as its goal is not to put the Crimeans in a kind of "Ukrainian jail" that they don't like, and where they would have to speak Ukrainian).

The Great Zaganza · 22nd March 2022, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

Normally, this is not something that I would find acceptable.

Perhaps Zelensky should prove that he is a good leader by making (quickly enough) the necessary territorial concessions:

(https://www.rt.com/russia/552471-kre...ky-referendum/)

If Kiev recognizes Crimea as a part of Russia, and the Donetsk and Lugansk republics as independent (together with a promise that it won't join NATO for at least five years), then perhaps it will become possible to convince Moscow to stop its offensive, and to protect the current democratic government of Ukraine and its military.

There is also another aspect: once Ukraine has made the necessary concessions (that it probably should have made a long time ago), it will become easier to argue for a Western military intervention to protect Ukraine (as long as its goal is not to put the Crimeans in a kind of "Ukrainian jail" that they don't like, and where they would have to speak Ukrainian).

Might makes right?
How about NATO takes St. Petersburg?
Hope Putin shows leadership by willingly handing over the city.

jimbob · 22nd March 2022, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Michel H

It seems that I forgot to post the link yesterday for this article about Maryana Naumova's response to Schwarzenegger: https://www.rt.com/sport/552390-arno...ryana-naumova/.

(just one paragraph)

If posters in this thread want to become real experts on the issue of Ukraine's responsability, it is better to read from various sources to have a complete picture.

You don't become an expert by taking liars at their word.

catsmate · 22nd March 2022, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Ukraine has made a lot of very stupid and bigoted mistakes regarding Crimea, Donbass and Russians in Ukraine.

However none of this in any way justifies the disgusting war Russia is committing against the people of Ukraine. Russia has become a war criminal state. Putin must be tried at The Hague.

True. If they'd ethnically cleaned the Russian population much of the problems could have been avoided.

JoeMorgue · 22nd March 2022, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

You don't become an expert by taking liars at their word.

"If 99 randomly picked licensed electricians say 'For the love of God you wired that wrong, it will kill you until you are dead from it if you flip that switch, also it will kill you slowly and it will hurt the entire time. I'm begging don't flip that switch' and one anonymous Youtube video from a known liar and idiots with an openly admitted anti-electrician bias says the circuit is fine, that means there is 'honest debate' to be had" kind of thinking is a core of the post-fact world though.

The ProudlyWrong are masters at finding one completely insane, outside of the bell curve contrarian voice and parading it around like it means something.

Axxman300 · 22nd March 2022, 11:07 AM

What if the Kamchatka Peninsula decided to declare itself part of Alaska? Does this mean the US is justified in sending in a "peace keeping" force?

And what happens if other eastern Russian areas want to declare independence from Moscow, and pledge allegiance to the United States?

theprestige · 22nd March 2022, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Ukraine has made a lot of very stupid and bigoted mistakes regarding Crimea, Donbass and Russians in Ukraine.

Name three.

JoeMorgue · 22nd March 2022, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Axxman300

What if the Kamchatka Peninsula decided to declare itself part of Alaska? Does this mean the US is justified in sending in a "peace keeping" force?

And what happens if other eastern Russian areas want to declare independence from Moscow, and pledge allegiance to the United States?

Hmmm if only we had some sort of real world scenario that actually happened where a big chunk of the United States declared itself its own country and the United States went "The **** you are" and a war got fought over it.

theprestige · 22nd March 2022, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Hmmm if only we had some sort of real world scenario that actually happened where a big chunk of the United States declared itself its own country and the United States went "The **** you are" and a war got fought over it.

A war, and the powers of the day got involved on one side or the other, to one degree or another.

*If* parts of eastern Russia tried to secede, the US *might* opt for some limited involvement, without getting too entangled, and trying to avoid any serious rift with the government in Moscow. Taking the US civil war as a model.

Lukraak_Sisser · 22nd March 2022, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Name three.

They had land Russia wanted
They had a government Russia did not want
They wanted to decide their own foreign policy.

Hercules56 · 22nd March 2022, 01:07 PM

Its come to my attention that in the years after the Euromaiden Revolution, Ukraine passed various laws discriminating against their large Russian minority.

They passed laws banning the use of Russian language in govt. affairs. They required all Russian publications also have pages translating all the Russian into Ukrainian. Russian businesses had to also use Russia. Several much lesser used language in Ukraine such as Yiddish were exempt from these regulations.

Why would Ukraine do this, and how did they expect Russia and the Russians in Ukraine to react? Did they think they would just sit back and allow themselves to be oppressed? I think this was a MAJOR mistake by Ukraine, and it has helped lead to the current disaster.

Darat · 22nd March 2022, 01:19 PM

Look at her, showing all that ankle, she deserved it!

dudalb · 22nd March 2022, 01:21 PM

Hey ,Hercules you are either peddling PUtin's propaganda or trying to be some kind of gadfly. Eithe way, this thread is a huge fail for you.

theprestige · 22nd March 2022, 01:22 PM

Double fail, since this basic premise has already been floated by Hercules in another thread, where it's already had some engagement.

Hercules56 · 22nd March 2022, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Look at her, showing all that ankle, she deserved it!

I didn't say that, and you should not simply disregard such blatant discrimination against minority populations.

And no, I do not believe for a second that this in any way justifies Russia's genocide against Ukraine.

theprestige · 22nd March 2022, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

And no, I do not believe for a second that this in any way justifies Russia's genocide against Ukraine.

You say that, but you seem to be cycling between Ukraine unnecessarily antagonizing Russia, and Ukraine needing to just agree to whatever suicidal peace demands Russia is making.

"I'm not saying the rape is justified, but she did dress like a slut, and now that it's started she really should stop resisting."

Hercules56 · 22nd March 2022, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Hey ,Hercules you are either peddling PUtin's propaganda or trying to be some kind of gadfly. Eithe way, this thread is a huge fail for you.

I'm sorry, are you accusing Human Rights Watch of peddling pro-Putin propaganda???

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/19/...cerns-ukraine#

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langua...icy_in_Ukraine

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1S111N

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...nguage-policy/

Hercules56 · 22nd March 2022, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

You say that, but you seem to be cycling between Ukraine unnecessarily antagonizing Russia, and Ukraine needing to just agree to whatever suicidal peace demands Russia is making.

"I'm not saying the rape is justified, but she did dress like a slut, and now that it's started she really should stop resisting."

Now you're clearly mischaracterizing my comments.

When it became clear that Russia was demanding Ukraine to demilitarize I admitted that Ukraine had no choice but to fight on. No nation can be invaded and then be expected to become a defenseless victim in exchange for peace.

Hercules56 · 22nd March 2022, 01:39 PM

Just because I deeply sympathize with Ukraine and their people, as they are being brutally attacked by Russia for no good reason, doesn't mean I'm blind to misdeeds by Ukraine and I wont speak out on them so as to maintain a front of support. I don't work that way.

Oystein · 22nd March 2022, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Its come to my attention that in the years after the Euromaiden Revolution, Ukraine passed various laws discriminating against their large Russian minority.

They passed laws banning the use of Russian language in govt. affairs. They required all Russian publications also have pages translating all the Russian into Ukrainian. Russian businesses had to also use Russia. Several much lesser used language in Ukraine such as Yiddish were exempt from these regulations.

Why would Ukraine do this, and how did they expect Russia and the Russians in Ukraine to react? Did they think they would just sit back and allow themselves to be oppressed? I think this was a MAJOR mistake by Ukraine, and it has helped lead to the current disaster.

It's complicated.

Yes, in general I agree it was stupid and counterproductive for Ukraine to stoop to low levels like Russia does.

There was push-back on those decisions, the UA supreme court had cases before it, and a change in the UA constitution was already allowing for Regions to elevate regional languages (e.g. Russian) to "official".

Then 2014 came, and Putin made Ukrainian national identity a thing forever and started this war.
So we will never know how a democratic and unmolested Ukraine would have handled the issue eventually.

My guess is that ensuring full rights for minorities, including and especially language rights, would have been put on the agenda by the EU, and UA would have complied happily.

Hercules56 · 22nd March 2022, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Oystein

It's complicated.

Yes, in general I agree it was stupid and counterproductive for Ukraine to stoop to low levels like Russia does.

There was push-back on those decisions, the UA supreme court had cases before it, and a change in the UA constitution was already allowing for Regions to elevate regional languages (e.g. Russian) to "official".

Then 2014 came, and Putin made Ukrainian national identity a thing forever and started this war.
So we will never know how a democratic and unmolested Ukraine would have handled the issue eventually.

My guess is that ensuring full rights for minorities, including and especially language rights, would have been put on the agenda by the EU, and UA would have complied happily.

Zelenkyy should announce that this law will be revoked immediately. Don't let Putin use it as an excuse to call the Ukrainians "Nazis".

Oystein · 22nd March 2022, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Zelenkyy should announce that this law will be revoked immediately. Don't let Putin use it as an excuse to call the Ukrainians "Nazis".

Now? Why?

plague311 · 22nd March 2022, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I think this was a MAJOR mistake by Ukraine, and it has helped lead to the current disaster.

This, doesn't jive with this:

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Just because I deeply sympathize with Ukraine and their people, as they are being brutally attacked by Russia for no good reason, doesn't mean I'm blind to misdeeds by Ukraine and I wont speak out on them so as to maintain a front of support. I don't work that way.

If you're saying that their actions helped lead to the current situation, then you can't also say that Russia was doing it for "no good reason". You've identified, what you think, is a reason for their invasion. Are we quibbling about the word "good"?

Oystein · 22nd March 2022, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

.... Are we quibbling about the word "good"?

As a matter of fact: Yes. With good reason.
We oppose the invasion not because it has no reasons, but because it has only bad reasons.

theprestige · 22nd March 2022, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Zelenkyy should announce that this law will be revoked immediately. Don't let Putin use it as an excuse to call the Ukrainians "Nazis".

Why? Nobody who matters buys this excuse.

LongFuzzy · 22nd March 2022, 02:10 PM

If Kiev recognizes Donetsk and Lugansk republics as independent, how long before Putin decides they are really part of Russia?

Trebuchet · 22nd March 2022, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by LongFuzzy

If Kiev recognizes Donetsk and Lugansk republics as independent, how long before Putin decides they are really part of Russia?

They'll vote to be part of Russia. Whether they want to or not.

Jack by the hedge · 22nd March 2022, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Why? Nobody who matters buys this excuse.

Well the people who are doing the bombing and shelling are Russians. Seems like it might matter what they believe. Do they buy it?

When Putin says "denazify" he doesn't mean those evil guys who murder Jews. He means those evil guys who attack Russians. Anything Ukraine has done to oppress its Russian population is a gift for that propaganda.

Axxman300 · 22nd March 2022, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Hmmm if only we had some sort of real world scenario that actually happened where a big chunk of the United States declared itself its own country and the United States went "The **** you are" and a war got fought over it.

The CSA wanted to be their own country, not rejoin England.

A closer example would be Hawaii deciding it wants to be independent from the US, then being granted it's sovereignty, and then 16 years later being invaded by the US to retake the islands because God told us to.

Plus, the CSA were A-holes, they had it coming.

theprestige · 22nd March 2022, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

They'll vote to be part of Russia. Whether they want to or not.

1. Transport all Ukrainians.

2. Hold a referendum of the Russian trustys, kapos, kulaks, and commissars who remain.

3. Profit!

theprestige · 22nd March 2022, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Axxman300

The CSA wanted to be their own country, not rejoin England.

A closer example would be Hawaii deciding it wants to be independent from the US, then being granted it's sovereignty, and then 16 years later being invaded by the US to retake the islands because God told us to.

Plus, the CSA were A-holes, they had it coming.

An even closer example would be a breakup of the United States, with the CSA re-forming as an independent sovereign nation, and then 16 years later being invaded by the North because "OMG they're raciss!" And even that is, quite frankly, pants on head retarded.

theprestige · 22nd March 2022, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Well the people who are doing the bombing and shelling are Russians. Seems like it might matter what they believe. Do they buy it?

When Putin says "denazify" he doesn't mean those evil guys who murder Jews. He means those evil guys who attack Russians. Anything Ukraine has done to oppress its Russian population is a gift for that propaganda.

It's pretty obvious that the Russian ground forces lack the effectiveness to really matter, in terms of these small propaganda gains we're talking about. If it were effective, Putin would be telling them it's happening already, whether it's really happening or not.

Arcade22 · 22nd March 2022, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Why would Ukraine do this, and how did they expect Russia and the Russians in Ukraine to react? Did they think they would just sit back and allow themselves to be oppressed? I think this was a MAJOR mistake by Ukraine, and it has helped lead to the current disaster.

If Russians had nothing, no matter how trivial, to complain about they would just make **** up like always.

The reality of the situation is that these Ukrainian laws and regulations are only an effect of the actual reason Russia seeks to take control of Ukraine: they won't recognize Russian authority and domination of them, such as by the fact that they emphasize their own language and customs above Russian ones.

What drives imperialist's like Putin mad with rage is that this is basically the opposite of what the Russians have been doing for hundreds of years (to use Putin's words "since Catherine The Great"). Historically they have repressed and undermined the Ukrainian (as well as most other minorities) language, culture and nationhood to the point that they refuse to acknowledge their existence. Russification was de facto imperial/all-union state policy only until the various nationalities achieved independence.

Hence why Putin's barley contained anger against Ukraine when he declared war. No longer should he tolerate them humiliating great and glorious Russia.

Arcade22 · 22nd March 2022, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Anything Ukraine has done to oppress its Russian population is a gift for that propaganda.

Like the Ukrainian genocide against Russians! Russians love to bring that up when defending the "special military operation". It almost brings the holocaust to shame in its scale and intensity.

dudalb · 22nd March 2022, 03:51 PM

Stop feeding the troll , folks.

Hercules56 · 22nd March 2022, 04:57 PM

I think Zelenskyy is the better man and should act like it. There's no need for anti-Russian laws in Ukraine.

Vixen · 22nd March 2022, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I think Zelenskyy is the better man and should act like it. There's no need for anti-Russian laws in Ukraine.

It is not really an 'anti-Russian' law. Ukraine is a country in its own right and is entitled to use its own language in official documents.

dudalb · 22nd March 2022, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

That's a lie. That is an intentional falsehood said with motive. That is a wrong statement said while knowing it is a wrong statement. That is a dishonest statement made knowingly.

Or if the individual in question is not a Putin stooge, he is giving a damn good impression of one.

Venom · 22nd March 2022, 05:38 PM

Think that general part of Europe is just prone to authoritarian impulses. that's their history.

22nd March 2022, 09:27 AM	#203
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 19,546	Originally Posted by Michel H Normally, this is not something that I would find acceptable. Perhaps Zelensky should prove that he is a good leader by making (quickly enough) the necessary territorial concessions: (https://www.rt.com/russia/552471-kre...ky-referendum/) If Kiev recognizes Crimea as a part of Russia, and the Donetsk and Lugansk republics as independent (together with a promise that it won't join NATO for at least five years), then perhaps it will become possible to convince Moscow to stop its offensive, and to protect the current democratic government of Ukraine and its military. There is also another aspect: once Ukraine has made the necessary concessions (that it probably should have made a long time ago), it will become easier to argue for a Western military intervention to protect Ukraine (as long as its goal is not to put the Crimeans in a kind of "Ukrainian jail" that they don't like, and where they would have to speak Ukrainian). Might makes right? How about NATO takes St. Petersburg? Hope Putin shows leadership by willingly handing over the city.
	__________________ "The only true paradise is paradise lost" Marcel Proust

22nd March 2022, 09:31 AM	#204
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 29,227	Originally Posted by Michel H It seems that I forgot to post the link yesterday for this article about Maryana Naumova's response to Schwarzenegger: https://www.rt.com/sport/552390-arno...ryana-naumova/. (just one paragraph) If posters in this thread want to become real experts on the issue of Ukraine's responsability, it is better to read from various sources to have a complete picture. You don't become an expert by taking liars at their word.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

22nd March 2022, 09:42 AM	#205
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Ukraine has made a lot of very stupid and bigoted mistakes regarding Crimea, Donbass and Russians in Ukraine. However none of this in any way justifies the disgusting war Russia is committing against the people of Ukraine. Russia has become a war criminal state. Putin must be tried at The Hague. True. If they'd ethnically cleaned the Russian population much of the problems could have been avoided.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

22nd March 2022, 09:46 AM	#206
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	Originally Posted by jimbob You don't become an expert by taking liars at their word. "If 99 randomly picked licensed electricians say 'For the love of God you wired that wrong, it will kill you until you are dead from it if you flip that switch, also it will kill you slowly and it will hurt the entire time. I'm begging don't flip that switch' and one anonymous Youtube video from a known liar and idiots with an openly admitted anti-electrician bias says the circuit is fine, that means there is 'honest debate' to be had" kind of thinking is a core of the post-fact world though. The ProudlyWrong are masters at finding one completely insane, outside of the bell curve contrarian voice and parading it around like it means something.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. Last edited by JoeMorgue; 22nd March 2022 at 09:48 AM.

22nd March 2022, 11:07 AM	#207
Axxman300 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Central California Coast Posts: 6,546	What if the Kamchatka Peninsula decided to declare itself part of Alaska? Does this mean the US is justified in sending in a "peace keeping" force? And what happens if other eastern Russian areas want to declare independence from Moscow, and pledge allegiance to the United States?
	__________________ Disingenuous Piranha

22nd March 2022, 09:00 AM	#202
Michel H Illuminator Join Date: May 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,326	Originally Posted by Marras You still ignore that Putin is demanding to install his own puppet government to Ukraine and to disband Ukraine's army. Normally, this is not something that I would find acceptable. Perhaps Zelensky should prove that he is a good leader by making (quickly enough) the necessary territorial concessions: Quote: Moscow further said it wanted the “demilitarization” and “denazification” of Ukraine, as well as for Kiev to recognize Crimea as a part of Russia, and the republics in Donetsk and Lugansk as independent states. (https://www.rt.com/russia/552471-kre...ky-referendum/) If Kiev recognizes Crimea as a part of Russia, and the Donetsk and Lugansk republics as independent (together with a promise that it won't join NATO for at least five years), then perhaps it will become possible to convince Moscow to stop its offensive, and to protect the current democratic government of Ukraine and its military. There is also another aspect: once Ukraine has made the necessary concessions (that it probably should have made a long time ago), it will become easier to argue for a Western military intervention to protect Ukraine (as long as its goal is not to put the Crimeans in a kind of "Ukrainian jail" that they don't like, and where they would have to speak Ukrainian).

22nd March 2022, 11:08 AM	#208
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Ukraine has made a lot of very stupid and bigoted mistakes regarding Crimea, Donbass and Russians in Ukraine. Name three.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

22nd March 2022, 11:11 AM	#209
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,036	Originally Posted by Axxman300 What if the Kamchatka Peninsula decided to declare itself part of Alaska? Does this mean the US is justified in sending in a "peace keeping" force? And what happens if other eastern Russian areas want to declare independence from Moscow, and pledge allegiance to the United States? Hmmm if only we had some sort of real world scenario that actually happened where a big chunk of the United States declared itself its own country and the United States went "The **** you are" and a war got fought over it.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

22nd March 2022, 11:21 AM	#210
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Hmmm if only we had some sort of real world scenario that actually happened where a big chunk of the United States declared itself its own country and the United States went "The **** you are" and a war got fought over it. A war, and the powers of the day got involved on one side or the other, to one degree or another. If parts of eastern Russia tried to secede, the US might opt for some limited involvement, without getting too entangled, and trying to avoid any serious rift with the government in Moscow. Taking the US civil war as a model.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

22nd March 2022, 12:43 PM	#211
Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,883	Originally Posted by theprestige Name three. They had land Russia wanted They had a government Russia did not want They wanted to decide their own foreign policy.

22nd March 2022, 01:07 PM	#212
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361	Why did Ukraine discriminate against Russians? Its come to my attention that in the years after the Euromaiden Revolution, Ukraine passed various laws discriminating against their large Russian minority. They passed laws banning the use of Russian language in govt. affairs. They required all Russian publications also have pages translating all the Russian into Ukrainian. Russian businesses had to also use Russia. Several much lesser used language in Ukraine such as Yiddish were exempt from these regulations. Why would Ukraine do this, and how did they expect Russia and the Russians in Ukraine to react? Did they think they would just sit back and allow themselves to be oppressed? I think this was a MAJOR mistake by Ukraine, and it has helped lead to the current disaster.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361

22nd March 2022, 01:19 PM	#213
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,117	Look at her, showing all that ankle, she deserved it!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

22nd March 2022, 01:21 PM	#214
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,771	Hey ,Hercules you are either peddling PUtin's propaganda or trying to be some kind of gadfly. Eithe way, this thread is a huge fail for you.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

22nd March 2022, 01:22 PM	#215
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Double fail, since this basic premise has already been floated by Hercules in another thread, where it's already had some engagement.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

22nd March 2022, 01:31 PM	#216
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361	Originally Posted by Darat Look at her, showing all that ankle, she deserved it! I didn't say that, and you should not simply disregard such blatant discrimination against minority populations. And no, I do not believe for a second that this in any way justifies Russia's genocide against Ukraine.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361

22nd March 2022, 01:34 PM	#217
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by Hercules56 And no, I do not believe for a second that this in any way justifies Russia's genocide against Ukraine. You say that, but you seem to be cycling between Ukraine unnecessarily antagonizing Russia, and Ukraine needing to just agree to whatever suicidal peace demands Russia is making. "I'm not saying the rape is justified, but she did dress like a slut, and now that it's started she really should stop resisting."
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

22nd March 2022, 01:36 PM	#218
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361	Originally Posted by dudalb Hey ,Hercules you are either peddling PUtin's propaganda or trying to be some kind of gadfly. Eithe way, this thread is a huge fail for you. I'm sorry, are you accusing Human Rights Watch of peddling pro-Putin propaganda??? https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/19/...cerns-ukraine# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langua...icy_in_Ukraine https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1S111N https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blog...nguage-policy/
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361

22nd March 2022, 01:38 PM	#219
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361	Originally Posted by theprestige You say that, but you seem to be cycling between Ukraine unnecessarily antagonizing Russia, and Ukraine needing to just agree to whatever suicidal peace demands Russia is making. "I'm not saying the rape is justified, but she did dress like a slut, and now that it's started she really should stop resisting." Now you're clearly mischaracterizing my comments. When it became clear that Russia was demanding Ukraine to demilitarize I admitted that Ukraine had no choice but to fight on. No nation can be invaded and then be expected to become a defenseless victim in exchange for peace.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361

22nd March 2022, 01:39 PM	#220
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361	Just because I deeply sympathize with Ukraine and their people, as they are being brutally attacked by Russia for no good reason, doesn't mean I'm blind to misdeeds by Ukraine and I wont speak out on them so as to maintain a front of support. I don't work that way.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361

22nd March 2022, 01:41 PM	#221
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,398	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Its come to my attention that in the years after the Euromaiden Revolution, Ukraine passed various laws discriminating against their large Russian minority. They passed laws banning the use of Russian language in govt. affairs. They required all Russian publications also have pages translating all the Russian into Ukrainian. Russian businesses had to also use Russia. Several much lesser used language in Ukraine such as Yiddish were exempt from these regulations. Why would Ukraine do this, and how did they expect Russia and the Russians in Ukraine to react? Did they think they would just sit back and allow themselves to be oppressed? I think this was a MAJOR mistake by Ukraine, and it has helped lead to the current disaster. It's complicated. Yes, in general I agree it was stupid and counterproductive for Ukraine to stoop to low levels like Russia does. There was push-back on those decisions, the UA supreme court had cases before it, and a change in the UA constitution was already allowing for Regions to elevate regional languages (e.g. Russian) to "official". Then 2014 came, and Putin made Ukrainian national identity a thing forever and started this war. So we will never know how a democratic and unmolested Ukraine would have handled the issue eventually. My guess is that ensuring full rights for minorities, including and especially language rights, would have been put on the agenda by the EU, and UA would have complied happily.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

22nd March 2022, 01:43 PM	#222
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361	Originally Posted by Oystein It's complicated. Yes, in general I agree it was stupid and counterproductive for Ukraine to stoop to low levels like Russia does. There was push-back on those decisions, the UA supreme court had cases before it, and a change in the UA constitution was already allowing for Regions to elevate regional languages (e.g. Russian) to "official". Then 2014 came, and Putin made Ukrainian national identity a thing forever and started this war. So we will never know how a democratic and unmolested Ukraine would have handled the issue eventually. My guess is that ensuring full rights for minorities, including and especially language rights, would have been put on the agenda by the EU, and UA would have complied happily. Zelenkyy should announce that this law will be revoked immediately. Don't let Putin use it as an excuse to call the Ukrainians "Nazis".
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,361

22nd March 2022, 01:46 PM	#223
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,398	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Zelenkyy should announce that this law will be revoked immediately. Don't let Putin use it as an excuse to call the Ukrainians "Nazis". Now? Why?
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

22nd March 2022, 01:47 PM	#224
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 13,789	Originally Posted by Hercules56 I think this was a MAJOR mistake by Ukraine, and it has helped lead to the current disaster. This, doesn't jive with this: Originally Posted by Hercules56 Just because I deeply sympathize with Ukraine and their people, as they are being brutally attacked by Russia for no good reason, doesn't mean I'm blind to misdeeds by Ukraine and I wont speak out on them so as to maintain a front of support. I don't work that way. If you're saying that their actions helped lead to the current situation, then you can't also say that Russia was doing it for "no good reason". You've identified, what you think, is a reason for their invasion. Are we quibbling about the word "good"?
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

22nd March 2022, 01:48 PM	#225
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 18,398	Originally Posted by plague311 .... Are we quibbling about the word "good"? As a matter of fact: Yes. With good reason. We oppose the invasion not because it has no reasons, but because it has only bad reasons.
	__________________ Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote)

22nd March 2022, 02:00 PM	#226
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Zelenkyy should announce that this law will be revoked immediately. Don't let Putin use it as an excuse to call the Ukrainians "Nazis". Why? Nobody who matters buys this excuse.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

22nd March 2022, 02:10 PM	#227
LongFuzzy Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 380	If Kiev recognizes Donetsk and Lugansk republics as independent, how long before Putin decides they are really part of Russia?

22nd March 2022, 02:18 PM	#228
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 35,997	Originally Posted by LongFuzzy If Kiev recognizes Donetsk and Lugansk republics as independent, how long before Putin decides they are really part of Russia? They'll vote to be part of Russia. Whether they want to or not.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

22nd March 2022, 02:48 PM	#229
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14,412	Originally Posted by theprestige Why? Nobody who matters buys this excuse. Well the people who are doing the bombing and shelling are Russians. Seems like it might matter what they believe. Do they buy it? When Putin says "denazify" he doesn't mean those evil guys who murder Jews. He means those evil guys who attack Russians. Anything Ukraine has done to oppress its Russian population is a gift for that propaganda.

22nd March 2022, 03:02 PM	#230
Axxman300 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Central California Coast Posts: 6,546	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Hmmm if only we had some sort of real world scenario that actually happened where a big chunk of the United States declared itself its own country and the United States went "The **** you are" and a war got fought over it. The CSA wanted to be their own country, not rejoin England. A closer example would be Hawaii deciding it wants to be independent from the US, then being granted it's sovereignty, and then 16 years later being invaded by the US to retake the islands because God told us to. Plus, the CSA were A-holes, they had it coming.
	__________________ Disingenuous Piranha

22nd March 2022, 03:25 PM	#231
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by Trebuchet They'll vote to be part of Russia. Whether they want to or not. 1. Transport all Ukrainians. 2. Hold a referendum of the Russian trustys, kapos, kulaks, and commissars who remain. 3. Profit!
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

22nd March 2022, 03:38 PM	#232
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by Axxman300 The CSA wanted to be their own country, not rejoin England. A closer example would be Hawaii deciding it wants to be independent from the US, then being granted it's sovereignty, and then 16 years later being invaded by the US to retake the islands because God told us to. Plus, the CSA were A-holes, they had it coming. An even closer example would be a breakup of the United States, with the CSA re-forming as an independent sovereign nation, and then 16 years later being invaded by the North because "OMG they're raciss!" And even that is, quite frankly, pants on head retarded.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

22nd March 2022, 03:40 PM	#233
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge Well the people who are doing the bombing and shelling are Russians. Seems like it might matter what they believe. Do they buy it? When Putin says "denazify" he doesn't mean those evil guys who murder Jews. He means those evil guys who attack Russians. Anything Ukraine has done to oppress its Russian population is a gift for that propaganda. It's pretty obvious that the Russian ground forces lack the effectiveness to really matter, in terms of these small propaganda gains we're talking about. If it were effective, Putin would be telling them it's happening already, whether it's really happening or not.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

22nd March 2022, 03:44 PM	#234
Arcade22 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 7,585	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Why would Ukraine do this, and how did they expect Russia and the Russians in Ukraine to react? Did they think they would just sit back and allow themselves to be oppressed? I think this was a MAJOR mistake by Ukraine, and it has helped lead to the current disaster. If Russians had nothing, no matter how trivial, to complain about they would just make **** up like always. The reality of the situation is that these Ukrainian laws and regulations are only an effect of the actual reason Russia seeks to take control of Ukraine: they won't recognize Russian authority and domination of them, such as by the fact that they emphasize their own language and customs above Russian ones. What drives imperialist's like Putin mad with rage is that this is basically the opposite of what the Russians have been doing for hundreds of years (to use Putin's words "since Catherine The Great"). Historically they have repressed and undermined the Ukrainian (as well as most other minorities) language, culture and nationhood to the point that they refuse to acknowledge their existence. Russification was de facto imperial/all-union state policy only until the various nationalities achieved independence. Hence why Putin's barley contained anger against Ukraine when he declared war. No longer should he tolerate them humiliating great and glorious Russia.
	__________________ We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann Last edited by Arcade22; 22nd March 2022 at 03:47 PM.

22nd March 2022, 03:48 PM	#235
Arcade22 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 7,585	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge Anything Ukraine has done to oppress its Russian population is a gift for that propaganda. Like the Ukrainian genocide against Russians! Russians love to bring that up when defending the "special military operation". It almost brings the holocaust to shame in its scale and intensity.
	__________________ We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

22nd March 2022, 03:51 PM	#236
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,771	Stop feeding the troll , folks.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.