Split Thread: Is Ukraine to blame for Putin's invasion

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Ireland requires people have certain Irish language ability to enter certain government and public positions.

Presumably this discriminates against the English-speaking majority. In fact, the government of Ireland is made up of parties that have IRA and Nazi origins.

Presumably the United Kingdom is required to invade to stop the genocide.

Maybe one our members in the Republic will correct me, but what I have gathered Irish/Gaelic is a required course in school, but is a classic "Pass and Forget" course,)Pr as we used to call such courses in the UA Army Spec and Dump)
Then if you actually need it for some reason, you take a refresher course to learn enough to pass the exams. Very few jobs actually require Iriish on a everyday basis.
I understand there are quire a few jokes about how few in Ireland can actually speak irish fluently.
As a revived language, Irish in the Republic is nowhere near as sucessful as Hebrew has been in Israel.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Bollocks, they were getting invaded whatever they did.

We dont know that.

If there was no language crackdown and harassment/violence against Russian speakers in Ukraine, there may have been no independence movement in Donbas and Crimea. And maybe no Russian invasion today.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ar-ncna1290946

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Protecti9n of minority rights, including minority languages, is one of the hallmarks of liberal democracies.

There is no such thing as a country's "own language" when at least two languages are spoken by large percentages of its population.

Such as the USA granting equal status to Spanish for official purposes?

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

We dont know that.

If there was no language crackdown and harassment/violence against Russian speakers in Ukraine, there may have been no independence movement in Donbas and Crimea. And maybe no Russian invasion today.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ar-ncna1290946

Part of a letter in the Financial Times by an old Moscow hand claims we should have known it, as Putin has been signposting it for years:

Quote:

The recent article by Maria Stepanova “The war of Putin’s imagination” (Life & Arts, FT Weekend, March 19) was exemplary. However, one jarring note was the unfounded notion that no one expected this aggression from the Kremlin.

I served as the UK’s defence attaché in Moscow for five years, 2011-2016, during which time this long, dark march to war was obvious, the path to conflict lit by the many pronouncements emanating from the dark red walls of Vladimir Putin’s palace.

We reported the inevitability of conflict in detail, regularly and with the despair of Cassandra. One of the earliest reports opened with a line from Sherlock Holmes, whose statue stands outside the British Embassy wall: “There’s an east wind coming all the same, such a wind as never blew on England yet. It will be cold and bitter, Watson, and a good many of us may wither before its blast.”

The evidence of Putin’s chosen path was never concealed. His many declarations were meant to be heard and understood: the colossal rearmament programme, the demand for more complex, more lethal weaponry; the militarisation of society; the distortion and seizure of the popular narrative; domination of education, the media and the courts to exclude contrasting views and, ultimately, the alienation and destruction of those among the Russian people who understood the folly of his declared ambition.

The list is remorseless, the consequences could not be ignored. But they were.
...

https://www.ft.com/content/857d2ccd-...9-88e04b42ba93

(Paywalled link, sorry.)

[malbui]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Maybe one our members in the Republic will correct me, but what I have gathered Irish/Gaelic is a required course in school, but is a classic "Pass and Forget" course,)Pr as we used to call such courses in the UA Army Spec and Dump)
Then if you actually need it for some reason, you take a refresher course to learn enough to pass the exams. Very few jobs actually require Iriish on a everyday basis.
I understand there are quire a few jokes about how few in Ireland can actually speak irish fluently.
As a revived language, Irish in the Republic is nowhere near as sucessful as Hebrew has been in Israel.

I'm in the odd position of being an Irish speaker who learned the language growing up outside the country.

I think what you put there is broadly correct. It's a compulsory subject but many, many students hate it and live for the day when they no longer have to open a text book.

It's all very political, though, and tied up in questions of national identity and political colour and all kinds of stuff that I never want to get involved in. I was also brought up speaking English and French and there's a lot to be said for not having any assumptions made about outlook or identity when speaking either of those.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

Ukraine hasn't joined NATO.

Picky picky picky.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Bollocks, they were getting invaded whatever they did.

This.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

We dont know that.

Sure we do.

Quote:

If there was no language crackdown and harassment/violence against Russian speakers in Ukraine, there may have been no independence movement in Donbas and Crimea. And maybe no Russian invasion today.

The independence movement was being fomented by Putin as a prelude to invasion. Hitler used the exact same strategy in Austria and Czechoslovakia. The crackdown on ethno-nationalist extremism was a response to this Russian instigation.

Even if Ukraine did nothing, Putin's agitators in Ukraine would keep escalating until Ukraine had no choice but to crack down. The only way to avoid it would have been to let the separatists go ahead and separate.

There are arguments to be made that the government of Ukraine in 2014 did not respond optimally to the difficult challenge, but Putin's entire strategy is designed to be a catch-22. Those arguments have no place in a discussion of who is to blame for the invasion.

If you want to start a thread about optimal responses to this kind of strategy, and how nations victimized by it can best respond, feel free. But all you're doing right now is carrying water for Putin and his propagandists.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Maybe one our members in the Republic will correct me, but what I have gathered Irish/Gaelic is a required course in school, but is a classic "Pass and Forget" course,)Pr as we used to call such courses in the UA Army Spec and Dump)
Then if you actually need it for some reason, you take a refresher course to learn enough to pass the exams. Very few jobs actually require Iriish on a everyday basis.
I understand there are quire a few jokes about how few in Ireland can actually speak irish fluently.
As a revived language, Irish in the Republic is nowhere near as sucessful as Hebrew has been in Israel.

Well summarised. The usual phrase is "cúpla focail".

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by catsmate

Such as the USA granting equal status to Spanish for official purposes?

Spanish has sort of an unofficial status in some states with most laws being printed in both English and Spanish.
But I don';t see Spanish being made an official lanugage for a long,long time. The precentage is not that big, and the US does not want some of the bilingual headaches Canada has had.

[theprestige]

Lots of regional and local governments in the US have mandates to provide important information in multiple languages. This includes government communications, and some kinds of public and private services. But Americans generally don't go for "official" languages.

[trustbutverify]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Good question! Zelensky better drop whatever he's doing and get to the bottom of this mystery right away. Ukraine's reputation and global support depends on it!

Absolutely. It's not as if a megalomaniacal sadist has a horde of assassins trying to murder him and his family, or anything like that.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by trustbutverify

Absolutely. It's not as if a megalomaniacal sadist has a horde of assassins trying to murder him and his family, or anything like that.

What's the big deal? I'm getting a daily reminder that Kyiv still stands. How hard could it be for Zelensky to convene the Ukrainian legislature and get this taken care of?

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

With trade any country can have what others have

Not if what you want is their resources or their land, or simply for that country to cease to exist. If Russia wanted to trade for what Ukraine has, they could do so without bombing cities and murdering refugees. And this would be true even if Ukraine has more weapons and aid and money and whatever than you think it ought to.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Gaetan

With trade any country can have what others have

Only if both parties want to trade and an equitable deal can be found.

OTOH if I want everything you have but don't want to compensate you in any way then we're probably not going to make deal.

This is the situation in Ukraine, Russia has a shopping list of demands and isn't willing to offer anything to trade in return - or more specifically they were offering something (promises to respect Ukraine's new, smaller boundaries) which has repeatedly been shown to be worthless.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Ireland.

Full sentence? If you have a point to make, make it.

Are you perhaps suggesting that Ireland has its own national langauge, Gaelic, and that therefore if Ireland imposed a law forbidding English in schools and official documents, that's how it ought to be and you support that?

Or are you saying that since, in fact, English is the dominating language of Ireland, Gaelic should not be taught in schools nor used in official communications if the English-language majority decided so?

Or would you not rather agree that both these proposals clearly go against everything we understand to be what modern, liberal democracies do?

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

...
I very much worry that this invasion is going to be a huge boon for nationalist elements in Ukraine, including outright neo-nazi elements who are gaining a lot of credibility as fierce anti-Russia fighters. Many of the heroes of this conflict are going to be outright nazis and will have political futures in Ukraine. Moderates like Zelensky are going to be facing a lot of pressure from the nationalist right for the foreseeable future.

This is exactly what happened after 2014. In the meantime, the popularity of extreme nationalist groups like Svoboda seem to have waned to levels comparable to many other European countries (i.e. opposition with little actual political power).

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

I’m gonna wager that the majority of those using this law to justify Russia’s invasion...

Who are you talking about there?

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by theprestige

...
It might be argued that cracking down on Russian ethno-nationalism and separatism in Eastern Ukraine was counter-productive, but why bother? Especially since Putin was fomenting unrest in those regions already - hence the understandable desire to crack down in the first place.

Anyway, go ahead: Make your argument, that if Ukraine hadn't tried to counter Putin's instigation of separatism...

You are missing the topic.
Executing Ukrainian ethno-nationalism is not equal to cracking down on Russian ethno-nationalism.
You don't counter ethno-nationalism by a policy of ethno-nationalism. Rather you validate it by your own ethno-nationalism.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Russia: "We're instigating ethno-nationalist dissent and civil unrest, and enabling ethno-extremists in eastern Ukraine, to lay the propaganda groundwork for invasion and annexation."

Ukraine: "We better crack down on ethno-nationalism, then."

Russia: "See?! We told you so!"

Europe: "You sure did! I guess eastern Ukraine is yours now."

You have a sick little fantasy there.
Not what anybody said or did.
Nor what this thread discusses.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by catsmate

Such as the USA granting equal status to Spanish for official purposes?

Good idea.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Maybe one our members in the Republic will correct me, but what I have gathered Irish/Gaelic is a required course in school, but is a classic "Pass and Forget" course,)Pr as we used to call such courses in the UA Army Spec and Dump)
Then if you actually need it for some reason, you take a refresher course to learn enough to pass the exams. Very few jobs actually require Iriish on a everyday basis.
I understand there are quire a few jokes about how few in Ireland can actually speak irish fluently.
As a revived language, Irish in the Republic is nowhere near as sucessful as Hebrew has been in Israel.

Yes, that’s all true enough, although I think Hebrew and Irish have a couple of big differences in that people in Ireland already had a common language - English, whereas in Israel people had various languages such as German or Russian, and Hebrew became the common language making it of far more practical value.

[Ryokan]

If Ukrainians are so biased against Russian speakers, why did they elect a Russian speaking president, famous from a Russian language comedy show, who had unity between the Ukrainian- and Russian-speaking parts of the country's population as one of his main messages?

[crescent]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

If Ukrainians are so biased against Russian speakers, why did they elect a Russian speaking president, famous from a Russian language comedy show, who had unity between the Ukrainian- and Russian-speaking parts of the country's population as one of his main messages?

I think is has something to do with why such a Nazi-dominated nation also elected a Jewish guy whose grandparent was a holocaust survivor.

It's like 5-D chess. You gotta be a member of the Illuminati Freemason Death-Yoga Quora of Stupendousness to understand.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by crescent

I think is has something to do with why such a Nazi-dominated nation also elected a Jewish guy whose grandparent was a holocaust survivor.

It's like 5-D chess. You gotta be a member of the Illuminati Freemason Death-Yoga Quora of Stupendousness to understand.

Being either a useful idiot for Putin or engaging in sophistry also works.

There's a reason why his trolls have pushed even seemingly benign conspiracy theories. It's because such conspiracy theories are a gateway drug to others as one has to reject reason.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

If Ukrainians are so biased against Russian speakers, why did they elect a Russian speaking president, famous from a Russian language comedy show, who had unity between the Ukrainian- and Russian-speaking parts of the country's population as one of his main messages?

The map of who voted for Zelensky is very interesting indeed.

Poroshenko was supposed to be the western stooge and he only won in Lviv and among emigres.

The further east the more likely people voted for Zelensky.

Putin basically was trying to overthrow the very person the Russian speakers wanted as president.

[crescent]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

The map of who voted for Zelensky is very interesting indeed.

Poroshenko was supposed to be the western stooge and he only won in Lviv and among emigres.

The further east the more likely people voted for Zelensky.

Putin basically was trying to overthrow the very person the Russian speakers wanted as president.

That was part of Zelensky's campaign - he ran as the middle ground between pro-Western/NATO/EU and the pro-Russian east. He was to be the political outsider that could find the common ground.

That wasn't good enough for Russia. They saw no middle ground, viewing anyone not solidly pro-Russian as a western stooge - even if Zelensky ran as in opposition to that. So they started tightening the screws with results that were predictable - right up until they (Russia) kicked that hornets nest good and hard.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by crescent

That was part of Zelensky's campaign - he ran as the middle ground between pro-Western/NATO/EU and the pro-Russian east. He was to be the political outsider that could find the common ground.

And yet he doesn't seem to be making many moves on the political front:

Quote:

Zelensky reveals compromise he won’t make
The Ukrainian president has ruled out any deal with Moscow that would impact his country’s “territorial integrity”

(https://www.rt.com/russia/552345-ukr...to-compromise/, 20 Mar, 2022).

The West seems to like him necause he is a good fighter, but this doesn't prevent his country from being destroyed, an energy crisis in Europe and a food crisis in the world.

It would be easy and painless for him (and his government and parliament) to accept that Crimea is Russian, that the Donetsk and Lugansk republics are independent, and that Ukraine won't join NATO for at least five years.

There is no absolute guarantee that such concessions would lead Putin to stop his war, but they probably wouldn't hurt, in order to bring peace.

[Mike!]

Originally Posted by Michel H

And yet he doesn't seem to be making many moves on the political front:

(https://www.rt.com/russia/552345-ukr...to-compromise/, 20 Mar, 2022).

The West seems to like him necause he is a good fighter, but this doesn't prevent his country from being destroyed, an energy crisis in Europe and a food crisis in the world.

It would be easy and painless for him (and his government and parliament) to accept that Crimea is Russian, that the Donetsk and Lugansk republics are independent, and that Ukraine won't join NATO for at least five years.

There is no absolute guarantee that such concessions would lead Putin to stop his war, but they probably wouldn't hurt, in order to bring peace.

Do you like being one of Putin's polyps?
If someone breaks into my house, I want them out completely, and I have no intention of negotiating whether they can set up housekeeping in my spare bedroom. They should be beaten back across the border in such a fashion that they think long and hard before attempting anything like it again, including Crimea.

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Mike!

Do you like being one of Putin's polyps?
If someone breaks into my house, I want them out completely, and I have no intention of negotiating whether they can set up housekeeping in my spare bedroom. They should be beaten back across the border in such a fashion that they think long and hard before attempting anything like it again, including Crimea.

But what would you do if your (assumed big and expensive) house is on fire, perhaps because of heavy fighting?
The house in which you have invested most of your money. Wouldn't you think that putting out the fire is your first priority?

If you have a choice between living in poverty and suffering because of serious injuries, for the rest of your life, on the one hand, and giving away that remote annex in your property that you don't use most of the time anyway, what do you choose? I certainly know the choice that I would make.

For Ukrainians, it's not like they are Americans who have plenty of oil and gas, and who watch war on TV.

As I have already said, I am no supporter of Vladimir Putin.

I believe the (mostly) unprovoked war that he launched against Ukraine, (perhaps because he felt Russia had become rich and powerful, and that he had China's support, so he could afford it and win, with a popularity boost) was both a mistake and a crime.

But, as explained in the opening post of this thread, Ukraine and the West have a big responsibility too (it might be argued that it is Ukraine and the West who mostly started this conflict, with an element of "russophobia"), and what was already true before Putin's war remains true during Putin's war.

The West finds it quite normal that Kosovo may become independent, but, apparently this right to self-determination doesn't apply to people who live in the Donetsk republic. Why? Well, of course, they commit the unforgivable crime of speaking Russian and of being Putin's allies.

[Mike!]

Originally Posted by Michel H

But what would you do if your (assumed big and expensive) house is on fire, perhaps because of heavy fighting?
The house in which you have invested most of your money. Wouldn't you think that putting out the fire is your first priority?

If you have a choice between living in poverty and suffering because of serious injuries, for the rest of your life, on the one hand, and giving away that remote annex in your property that you don't use most of the time anyway, what do you choose? I certainly know the choice that I would make.

For Ukrainians, it's not like they are Americans who have plenty of oil and gas, and who watch war on TV.

As I have already said, I am no supporter of Vladimir Putin.

I believe the (mostly) unprovoked war that he launched against Ukraine, (perhaps because he felt Russia had become rich and powerful, and that he had China's support, so he could afford it and win, with a popularity boost) was both a mistake and a crime.

But, as explained in the opening post of this thread, Ukraine and the West have a big responsibility too (it might be argued that it is Ukraine and the West who mostly started this conflict, with an element of "russophobia"), and what was already true before Putin's war remains true during Putin's war.

The West finds it quite normal that Kosovo may become independent, but, apparently this right to self-determination doesn't apply to people who live in the Donetsk republic. Why? Well, of course, they commit the unforgivable crime of speaking Russian and of being Putin's allies.

The last person I'd be negotiating with is the arsonist himself, him I want punished, not rewarded, even in the slightest fashion. Putin is, and has been the aggressor here from the very beginning, make no mistake, and he deserves nothing short of a severe beating for that, and nothing else. Your efforts at justification are disgusting.

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by Michel H

But what would you do if your (assumed big and expensive) house is on fire, perhaps because of heavy fighting?
The house in which you have invested most of your money. Wouldn't you think that putting out the fire is your first priority?

If you have a choice between living in poverty and suffering because of serious injuries, for the rest of your life, on the one hand, and giving away that remote annex in your property that you don't use most of the time anyway, what do you choose? I certainly know the choice that I would make.

So you would be beholden to your arsonist, because they'd know that if they want more from you all they have to do is start burning the house down again. This person already stole part of your house and you weren't able to kick them out and when they decide they'd like more of your house and you fight back you say that you should just roll over and hand over more house? What will you do when this keeps happening and you have no house left?

Quote:

As I have already said, I am no supporter of Vladimir Putin.

You claim that, but your actions speak otherwise.

Quote:

I believe the (mostly) unprovoked war that he launched against Ukraine, (perhaps because he felt Russia had become rich and powerful, and that he had China's support, so he could afford it and win, with a popularity boost) was both a mistake and a crime.

But, as explained in the opening post of this thread, Ukraine and the West have a big responsibility too (it might be argued that it is Ukraine and the West who mostly started this conflict, with an element of "russophobia"), and what was already true before Putin's war remains true during Putin's war.

The actions that you claim are a "big responsibility" in this war, are a result of Russia's actions in Crimea. That's not provocation, that's a response to being provoked. You don't get to use that response as an excuse to invade your neighbours.

Quote:

The West finds it quite normal that Kosovo may become independent, but, apparently this right to self-determination doesn't apply to people who live in the Donetsk republic. Why? Well, of course, they commit the unforgivable crime of speaking Russian and of being Putin's allies.

If the right to self-determination means that the region declaring independence automatically gets the right to secede then do you believe that Russia was in the wrong for the wars in Chechnya?

Fact of the matter is that under international law the right to self determination does not automatically grant the right to secede from the original nation. That's why the Yugoslav wars happened, and because of that the Kosovo war as well.

What happened with Kosovo isn't particularly comparable since by the declaration in 2008 the region had been under UN control since 1999 after NATO got involved in the region because of all the ethnic cleansing going on in the area. This is not comparable to what happened in Ukraine at all.

One other fun little fact, despite all of the claims that Russia has made using Kosovo as a precedent, they don't actually recognise Kosovo as an independent country.

[theprestige]

Kosovo? I support people doing good things. That doesn't mean I have to support people doing bad things and claiming they're good things.

I support assisted suicide. That doesn't mean that have to support murder just because the murderer claims it's assisted suicide.

[Captain_Swoop]

This short film seems appropriate.

My N@zi Roommate

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Michel H]

Originally Posted by Wildy

So you would be beholden to your arsonist, because they'd know that if they want more from you all they have to do is start burning the house down again. This person already stole part of your house and you weren't able to kick them out and when they decide they'd like more of your house and you fight back you say that you should just roll over and hand over more house? What will you do when this keeps happening and you have no house left?

I believe that it is also necessary to look at the situation in a practical way, and not necessarily in a 100% "moral" way. There are probably many examples in history where "aggressors" got in a sense rewarded (actually this is mostly how empires got built, the Roman empire for example).

As far as I know, Russia doesn't have any territorial claim with respect to Ukraine, besides Crimea (it is however possible that the Russians want that the Donetsk and Lugansk republics expand the territory they control, possibly to the whole of Donbass, not quite sure about this).

So I wouldn't say this is an endless thing, I don't think the Russians are this idiotic or unprofessional.

When there is a difficult conflict, people get killed, injured, poverty developing..., the right to self-determination (simply "giving the local people what they want") is an important guiding principle, more useful than rivalry between great empires.

If, like Zelensky, you don't even try political concessions, all you get is war.

[Mike!]

Originally Posted by Michel H

I believe that it is also necessary to look at the situation in a practical way, and not necessarily in a 100% "moral" way. There are probably many examples in history where "aggressors" got in a sense rewarded (actually this is mostly how empires got built, the Roman empire for example).

As far as I know, Russia doesn't have any territorial claim with respect to Ukraine, besides Crimea (it is however possible that the Russians want that the Donetsk and Lugansk republics expand the territory they control, possibly to the whole of Donbass, not quite sure about this).

So I wouldn't say this is an endless thing, I don't think the Russians are this idiotic or unprofessional.

When there is a difficult conflict, people get killed, injured, poverty developping..., the right to self-determination (simply "giving the local people what they want") is an important guiding principle, more useful than rivalry between great empires.

If, like Zelensky, you don't even try political concessions, all you get is war.

*********. (<Starts with a B, ends in T) Russia ATTACKED Ukraine. Period. There was no provocation other than Putin's self created fantasies of Nazi drug addicts running chemical weapons labs while committing genocide on someone, someplace. Were I in Zelensky's shoes, since I've been forced to engage and crank up my countries War Machine, I believe the only compromise I would be happy with would be to the beat the Russians back across their globally recognized border, racking up as many casualties and destruction of their equipment possible as they retreat. Make it clear what a catastrophic mistake this was from the very beginning.

[trustbutverify]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

If Ukrainians are so biased against Russian speakers, why did they elect a Russian speaking president, famous from a Russian language comedy show, who had unity between the Ukrainian- and Russian-speaking parts of the country's population as one of his main messages?

Because.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

If Ukrainians are so biased against Russian speakers, why did they elect a Russian speaking president, famous from a Russian language comedy show, who had unity between the Ukrainian- and Russian-speaking parts of the country's population as one of his main messages?

Have they repealed they anti-Russian laws yet?

Have they cracked down on right-wing extremist and racist groups?

Have they banned the display of the swastika and other nazi symbols?

[crescent]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Have they repealed they anti-Russian laws yet?

Have they cracked down on right-wing extremist and racist groups?

Have they banned the display of the swastika and other nazi symbols?

The second and third points have not even been implemented in the U.S.

Should we get invaded for that?

[trustbutverify]

Originally Posted by crescent

That was part of Zelensky's campaign - he ran as the middle ground between pro-Western/NATO/EU and the pro-Russian east. He was to be the political outsider that could find the common ground.

That wasn't good enough for Russia. They saw no middle ground, viewing anyone not solidly pro-Russian as a western stooge - even if Zelensky ran as in opposition to that. So they started tightening the screws with results that were predictable - right up until they (Russia) kicked that hornets nest good and hard.

Part of what threatens Putin about Zelensky is his potential to reintegrate the east back into Ukraine... hence the heavy handed support for separatists during this last decade.