Drag Shows!! - Page 10

Thermal · 20th December 2022, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

I have friends who do 'Princess Story Hour' and 'Super Hero Story Hour'. Do you think those are also done to be fetishized?

It is truly, deeply, funny how much trouble people have letting go of their initial preconceptions, in this case of drag.

EDIT: Like some people got half mast at Misses Doubtfire and it's everyone else's problem now for some reason.

It's not that. What were Mrs Doubtfire and Some Like it Hot and Bosom Buddies? Comedies. They were solely intended to be a mockery of men trying to pass as women.

Do people attend drag shows to politely applaud the fashion choices? Doubt it. Even Ru Paul still gets big smiles and laughs and whoops.

Drag is fine. It's a form of entertainment, but we are kidding ourselves if we are pretending it isn't done on stage for a laugh. I'm not sure that's the most forward thinking kind of entertainment (laughing at men who present as women), but whatevs.
.

Thermal · 20th December 2022, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

Maybe nobody thought of it until you did. Get out your old leisure suit and call the library.

I'm thinking I could rock a Jeff Spicoli Story Hour.

bruto · 20th December 2022, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Warp12

#whenithinkaboutthemiItouchmyself

Get real.

Last time I looked around and stomped my feet on the floor and threw stuff I detected a distinct odor of reality. And yet whatever is contained in that hashtag, I'm willing to bet I don't. In fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone in the thing I so naively consider the real world who does. So not only will I refrain from investigating it, but I will question the relevancy of it.

Now fit women in athletic attire....uh oh, oh no, they're heading for the library!

tyr_13 · 20th December 2022, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

It's not that. What were Mrs Doubtfire and Some Like it Hot and Bosom Buddies? Comedies. They were solely intended to be a mockery of men trying to pass as women.

Do people attend drag shows to politely applaud the fashion choices? Doubt it. Even Ru Paul still gets big smiles and laughs and whoops.

Drag is fine. It's a form of entertainment, but we are kidding ourselves if we are pretending it isn't done on stage for a laugh. I'm not sure that's the most forward thinking kind of entertainment (laughing at men who present as women), but whatevs.
.

Ok, let's leave aside that we've already found one thing you agree is a point of drag that isn't sexual fetish (assuming you don't also think comedy is a sexual fetish), yes, sometimes the point is to enjoy the creativity of the fashion choices.

Like with the other examples that you, I guess, agree aren't universally sexual fetish either who also do story hours? Your goalpost move from 'sexual fetish' to 'comedy' doesn't even make sense in this light. Kids often like to have stories told to them by people in cool or pretty costumes. What about this is confusing you?

Your motivations and associations are not universal. I strongly believe this sentence is the root of many of the issues people just won't move away from. If you think drag is all sexual fetish (with some comedy), that's a you problem.

plague311 · 20th December 2022, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

No, but I'm sure you'll find that recognizable celebrities are expected to pose for pictures and autographs pretty relentlessly, athletes included.

Yeah, they sure do. Happens all of the time. I'm not sure how it's relevant though.

Originally Posted by Thermal

Do you think a kid who is young enough to attend a story hour would have any reservations about saying "there's the man who wears a dress!"

No, I don't think kids would have any reservations about saying something similar. Probably even being inquisitive by asking, "Why is that man wearing a dress?" or the like. That's good. Kids ask questions all of the mother ******* time. I have a 3 year old granddaughter who is nothing but questions. She even asks "what?" before I finish saying a sentence sometimes. Would I ever hesitate to take her to a Drag Show Story Hour, not that they would ever ******* happen in Grand Forks, North Dakota, but the answer is no. I would have no issues because it sparks creativity, curiousness, and learning how to act in situations that aren't perfectly normal. We call it "experience" where I'm from.

I'm also not under the impression that the men that do this haven't been asked or heard those questions before, by people not as innocent as children.

ponderingturtle · 20th December 2022, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

I'd say less, since animals do not particularly care when or where they get a little frisky and often engage in a similar form of sexuality to humans.

I have a friend whose dog would bring his bed out for company and then proceed to hump it for his audience. I would argue that drag queen story times have far less than that.

But no right thinking person thinks children should be exposed to pets. That just leads them down the perverted route that is pet play. First you have a dog then you want to be one.

ponderingturtle · 20th December 2022, 02:16 PM

The list of things children should be protected from because someone has them as a paraphernalia.

Pets, balloons, pies to the face, clowns...

Of course so many of these people must think spanking fetishes are good things and should be promoted to kids.

catsmate · 20th December 2022, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Sure, a dancing monkey is greatly entertaining. Then whenever you see a monkey, you expect it to dance for you.

No it's not, it's cruel and exploitative.
No I don't. Perhaps animal abuse doesn't amuse me as much as it evidently does you.

Thermal · 20th December 2022, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Ok, let's leave aside that we've already found one thing you agree is a point of drag that isn't sexual fetish (assuming you don't also think comedy is a sexual fetish), yes, sometimes the point is to enjoy the creativity of the fashion choices.

Like with the other examples that you, I guess, agree aren't universally sexual fetish either who also do story hours? Your goalpost move from 'sexual fetish' to 'comedy' doesn't even make sense in this light. Kids often like to have stories told to them by people in cool or pretty costumes. What about this is confusing you?

Your motivations and associations are not universal. I strongly believe this sentence is the root of many of the issues people just won't move away from. If you think drag is all sexual fetish (with some comedy), that's a you problem.

It's very telling that you added "sexual" to "fetish" five times in the same post, when I never said it. In fact, my examples were non-sexual (mom jeans, Unfashionable dads, straight actors).

So you apparently agree that fetish and sexual fetish are different, or else why qualify it repeatedly? I think it's a strange niche for a storyteller, especially if the idea is "diversity", as claimed. Drag performances have been accepted far, far longer than actual parading sex fetishes. What I'm saying is that this is a somewhat inexplicable theme for story hours, unless the promoters have some kind of fixation on drag, that most don't feel that strongly about one way or the other, when presented as adult entertainment. It's just odd to want to have kids be ready to see...how is it being described here?... flamboyantly cross dressed men. That's a bit quirky, not to say, fixated, unless they also promote other types of normally comical attire? Or is it pretty much just parading the Drag Show that they are into?

Stout · 20th December 2022, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

And, more importantly, so what if it does?

We'll get the Sodom and Gomorrah treatment, that's what, and my homeowner's insurance doesn't cover acts of god.

Anyways...

It looks like the conservative jackbooted thugs have gotten the all ages nationally touring show, A Drag Queen Christmas downgraded to a +18 Mature event.

And just what are these church ladies clutching their pears over the poor innocent children being exposed to?

https://twitter.com/TaylerUSA/status...61787340480516

catsmate · 20th December 2022, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

It's very telling that you added "sexual" to "fetish" five times in the same post, when I never said it.<>

Fetish:

a form of sexual desire in which gratification is strongly linked to a particular object or activity or a part of the body other than the sexual organs.
an inanimate object worshipped for its supposed magical powers or because it is considered to be inhabited by a spirit.

Robin · 20th December 2022, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

If this is not supposed to be fetishized, why is it a Drag Story Hour at all? Do they also sponsor Mom Jeans Story Hours? Three Seasons Ago Unfashionable Dad Story Hours?

Drag is a highly popular, time honoured form of entertainment. Back in the sixties when I was a kid I used to sit and watch Danny la Rue on the telly with my very conservative great aunts. I might ask why we didn't sit and watch Mom jeans variety show or the unfashionable dad's variety hour.

tyr_13 · 20th December 2022, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

It's very telling that you added "sexual" to "fetish" five times in the same post, when I never said it. In fact, my examples were non-sexual (mom jeans, Unfashionable dads, straight actors).

LMAO! Dude, leaving aside the overwhelming connotation of 'fetish', the conversation you were responding to besides being about people wanting to restrict all drag events to people over the age of 18 was specifically discussing Warp12's view and WWBDD's that the reason to do this is that drag is sexual. Indeed WWBDD's, deeply wrong, argument that drag is all transvestic fetishism as listed in the DSM removes all ambiguity as to what way 'fetish' was being used.

And it's pretty damn funny for you to think that there aren't a lot of people who do have sexual fetishes for the things you listed.

If you really meant to argue that drag is all a non-sexual fetish, well...

Quote:

So you apparently agree that fetish and sexual fetish are different, or else why qualify it repeatedly? I think it's a strange niche for a storyteller, especially if the idea is "diversity", as claimed. Drag performances have been accepted far, far longer than actual parading sex fetishes. What I'm saying is that this is a somewhat inexplicable theme for story hours, unless the promoters have some kind of fixation on drag, that most don't feel that strongly about one way or the other, when presented as adult entertainment. It's just odd to want to have kids be ready to see...how is it being described here?... flamboyantly cross dressed men. That's a bit quirky, not to say, fixated, unless they also promote other types of normally comical attire? Or is it pretty much just parading the Drag Show that they are into?

...then you're just making another deeply silly argument. This is akin to saying 'why does this character have to be gay/black/a woman'? Reading events have many different themes and drag ones became popular because kids like the colorful outfits and characters, and get a lot of news because of the unlit candles who oppose them.

If the best you can come up with is 'you'd have to be a fetishist to combine these', that still leaves my objection intact. Your motivations and assumptions are not universal. No, one does not need to be a fetishists of any kind to happen upon that theme. Obviously.

I cosplay. One of my costumes is Freddy Fazbear from the horror jumpscare video game 'Five Nights at Freddy's'. Every time I've worn that outfit, of an animation bear haunted by the ghosts of murdered children who come alive at night to brutally kill more people, kids come up and love it. Absolutely adore the costume. Can you see how someone could say, 'hey, that'd be a great thing to read to kids in!' without being a fetishist? No?

Again, that's a you problem.

Stacyhs · 20th December 2022, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Stout

We'll get the Sodom and Gomorrah treatment, that's what, and my homeowner's insurance doesn't cover acts of god.

Anyways...

It looks like the conservative jackbooted thugs have gotten the all ages nationally touring show, A Drag Queen Christmas downgraded to a +18 Mature event.

And just what are these church ladies clutching their pears over the poor innocent children being exposed to?

https://twitter.com/TaylerUSA/status...61787340480516

Oh, no! Tayler Hansen is outraged:

Quote:

All Ages” Drag Queen Christmas Mega Thread ��

Yesterday, a blatantly sexualized show meant to groom children was hosted in Austin, TX.

I remember more simple times when these bozos' outrage at this time of year was all about the War of Christmas and how Christians are being discriminated against. Those days almost bring a tear to my eye.

arthwollipot · 20th December 2022, 04:38 PM

I'm going to be very clear here.

Originally Posted by WWBDD

Are you claiming that drag shows are not burlesque shows hence not inherently sexual, therefore appropriate for children?

Drag shows are not inherently sexual.

They certainly can be, just like other kinds of stage performance. But there is nothing inherently sexual about wearing the clothes generally associated with a different gender.

arthwollipot · 20th December 2022, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by WWBDD

No, I'm discussing transvestic fetishism, which is a paraphilia.

That's not drag.

Warp12 · 20th December 2022, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

That's not drag.

One thing is important: we must always split hairs as much they allow.

arthwollipot · 20th December 2022, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

We could look at that, even setting aside that the Pythons were deliberately trying to be ridiculous.

Shall we start with the Lumberjack Skit?

Sure. Shall we continue with the Pepperpots?

arthwollipot · 20th December 2022, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Warp12

One thing is important: we must always split hairs as much they allow.

It is not splitting hairs to draw a distinction between drag and transvestitism. They're different things.

deadrose · 20th December 2022, 06:20 PM

This is sexually alluring? https://dinamartina.com

Stacyhs · 20th December 2022, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by deadrose

This is sexually alluring? https://dinamartina.com

Only to 6-year-olds, apparently.

WWBDD · 20th December 2022, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Really? Sexual orientation is not innate?

Really. No aspect of personality is innate.

How "it seems" to you is meaningless. Can you prove it, or at least support it? That's the question. You can't, many researchers wanted to prove it, but they found no evidence. Your opinion is dismissed.

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Who do we go to tell us what is abnormal?

Weird question. I've never needed to be told what's abnormal. It's unmistakable in my experience. I suppose a statistician or psychiatrist.
"Abnormal" isn't a value judgement

Edited by zooterkin:

<SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.

. Neither are "deviant", "norm" nor "deviate." They're statistical terms.

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Your church?

I'm a skeptic. I don't have a church.

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Would you let your children see Mrs. Doubtfire? Or do you deny that Robin Williams performed in drag? How about Tom Hanks in Bosom Buddies? Jack Benny in Charlies Aunt? How about Nathan Lane in The Producers and Birdcage?

The word games are tiresome, I'm not playing. Actors in costume obviously aren't sexually aroused by the costumes. They aren't prostitutes.

How can you leave out Peter Scolari? It wasn't Bosom Buddy.

Originally Posted by acbytesla

By the way, I think hateful bigotry is not innate. Bigots were taught to be ignorant.

Again, what you think has no bearing on the matter.
How is ignorance taught?

Edited by zooterkin:

<SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.

Jimmy9 · 20th December 2022, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by deadrose

This is sexually alluring? https://dinamartina.com

No. The problem is with these new Drag Queens who are obviously making it sexual.

https://nypost.com/2022/10/18/video-...arks-backlash/

WWBDD · 20th December 2022, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I'm going to be very clear here.

Drag shows are not inherently sexual.

They certainly can be, just like other kinds of stage performance. But there is nothing inherently sexual about wearing the clothes generally associated with a different gender.

Edited by zooterkin:

<SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.

I'm referring to the content of the shows,

Edited by zooterkin:

<SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.

arthwollipot · 20th December 2022, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by WWBDD

Edited by zooterkin:

<SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.

I'm referring to the content of the shows,

Edited by zooterkin:

<SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.

Not all drag shows are burlesque.

Skeptic Ginger · 20th December 2022, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by WWBDD

Really. No aspect of personality is innate.
I'm a skeptic. ....

As a skeptic did you bother to investigate this unsupported claim of yours?

Upchurch · 20th December 2022, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by WWBDD

Edited by zooterkin:

<SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.

I'm referring to the content of the shows,

Edited by zooterkin:

<SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12.

You look up drag queen story hour, the actual kind of drag show we’re discussing, and tell me where you find “burlesque”.

Thermal · 20th December 2022, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

LMAO! Dude, leaving aside the overwhelming connotation of 'fetish', the conversation you were responding to besides being about people wanting to restrict all drag events to people over the age of 18 was specifically discussing Warp12's view and WWBDD's that the reason to do this is that drag is sexual. Indeed WWBDD's, deeply wrong, argument that drag is all transvestic fetishism as listed in the DSM removes all ambiguity as to what way 'fetish' was being used.

I...uh...wasn't responding to a conversation. By Warp12, WWBDD or anyone else. So there's that.

Quote:

And it's pretty damn funny for you to think that there aren't a lot of people who do have sexual fetishes for the things you listed.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who fetishize *checks notes* Unfashionable dads reading stories. Bit niche, but it's a big world.

Quote:

If you really meant to argue that drag is all a non-sexual fetish, well...

I did not. You're projecting again.

Quote:

...then you're just making another deeply silly argument. This is akin to saying 'why does this character have to be gay/black/a woman'? Reading events have many different themes and drag ones became popular because kids like the colorful outfits and characters, and get a lot of news because of the unlit candles who oppose them.

I'm really digging these stereotypes you throw around so casually.

Quote:

If the best you can come up with is 'you'd have to be a fetishist to combine these', that still leaves my objection intact. Your motivations and assumptions are not universal. No, one does not need to be a fetishists of any kind to happen upon that theme. Obviously.

I cosplay. One of my costumes is Freddy Fazbear from the horror jumpscare video game 'Five Nights at Freddy's'. Every time I've worn that outfit, of an animation bear haunted by the ghosts of murdered children who come alive at night to brutally kill more people, kids come up and love it. Absolutely adore the costume. Can you see how someone could say, 'hey, that'd be a great thing to read to kids in!' without being a fetishist? No?

Not familiar with the Freddy thing. Goggling it, Freddy Fazbear seems to be...a cutsie wootsie bearsy wearsie?

https://www.google.com/search?q=fred...eoiA0_25:122.5

Is your costume that you emphasized the jumpscare horror nature of somewhat more ghoulish?

Quote:

Again, that's a you problem.

Again, you don't seem to be understanding, but I doubt further discussion will improve your comprehension. But for the hell of it:

What I'm wondering is not about the story readers or the audience. That's just reading stories to kids, who probably have no idea what drag even is. It's why the adult promoters/organizers say "no, we don't want colorful people to engage children when reading stories. We want specifically men in pantyhose and stuffed bras. That's what does it for us". Ya that's a bit odd.

Robin · 21st December 2022, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Dictionaries are descriptive in use, yes. We normies often get colorful in our use of the language, and get annoyed with those who fetishize dictionary definitions to the point of exclusivity. .

But since nobody here is doing that ....

catsmate · 21st December 2022, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

For those of us who aren't anal retentive ******** who spend all day jerking it to dictionaries,, fetish commonly means something you get weirdly hung up on.

Pathetic but utterly unexpected response to bring wrong.

catsmate · 21st December 2022, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

Actually fetish means what the dictionary says.

But even using it with your definition it doesn't make sense on the context. Who are you saying is weirdly hung up on what? Why is it weird? Just because you don't like it?

It's the classic troll tactic of "words mean whatever suits me".

Darat · 21st December 2022, 03:30 AM

Have to say when I first learnt about the "Drag Queen Story hour" I was somewhat bemused, couldn't see a direct link to reading, but if it gets more kids interested in reading, books and the library by making them all seem fun (of course there is no "seems" they are all fun but often adults make them seem like chores or boring) then why ever not?

Robin · 21st December 2022, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

It's why the adult promoters/organizers say "no, we don't want colorful people to engage children when reading stories. We want specifically men in pantyhose and stuffed bras. That's what does it for us". Ya that's a bit odd.

Try "Let's have people from a highly popular, time honoured form of entertainment reading stories."

You find it a bit odd because it's not what you are used to. Doesn't seem odd to me. I grew up in Britain. Every Christmas we all got taken to be entertained by men in pantyhose and stuffed bras. That person was often the minister from our local church or a cop.

Warp12 · 21st December 2022, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by Robin

I grew up in Britain. Every Christmas we all got taken to be entertained by men in pantyhose and stuffed bras.

This makes me think of why 1776 was a good year.

bluesjnr · 21st December 2022, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Have to say when I first learnt about the "Drag Queen Story hour" I was somewhat bemused, couldn't see a direct link to reading, but if it gets more kids interested in reading, books and the library by making them all seem fun (of course there is no "seems" they are all fun but often adults make them seem like chores or boring) then why ever not?

I'm kinda in the same area. My issue is that I can't make a good case why this should be a thing and I can't make a good case why this shouldn't be a thing?

Darat · 21st December 2022, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

I'm kinda in the same area. My issue is that I can't make a good case why this should be a thing and I can't make a good case why this shouldn't be a thing?

I think Robin sums it up well just above with the "Let's have people from a highly popular, time honoured form of entertainment reading stories."

After hearing about it I did look around and having people (often the librarians themselves) dressed up in some way and reading stories is anything but unusual. There's an example in the Youtube clip I posted above - library employee dressed up for Halloween.

Warp12 · 21st December 2022, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I think Robin sums it up well just above with the "Let's have people from a highly popular, time honoured form of entertainment reading stories."

It's not honored in my neighborhood, bro.

Susheel · 21st December 2022, 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by Warp12

It's not honored in my neighborhood, bro.

Your neighbourhood is not the world bro...

The Great Zaganza · 21st December 2022, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by Susheel

Your neighbourhood is not the world bro...

and that, in a nutshell, is the problem as far as Warp is concerned.

Susheel · 21st December 2022, 04:02 AM

For that matter...while it may be in the US, it is not the US.

20th December 2022, 11:52 AM	#361
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,896	Originally Posted by tyr_13 I have friends who do 'Princess Story Hour' and 'Super Hero Story Hour'. Do you think those are also done to be fetishized? It is truly, deeply, funny how much trouble people have letting go of their initial preconceptions, in this case of drag. EDIT: Like some people got half mast at Misses Doubtfire and it's everyone else's problem now for some reason. It's not that. What were Mrs Doubtfire and Some Like it Hot and Bosom Buddies? Comedies. They were solely intended to be a mockery of men trying to pass as women. Do people attend drag shows to politely applaud the fashion choices? Doubt it. Even Ru Paul still gets big smiles and laughs and whoops. Drag is fine. It's a form of entertainment, but we are kidding ourselves if we are pretending it isn't done on stage for a laugh. I'm not sure that's the most forward thinking kind of entertainment (laughing at men who present as women), but whatevs. .
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

20th December 2022, 11:54 AM	#362
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,896	Originally Posted by bruto Maybe nobody thought of it until you did. Get out your old leisure suit and call the library. I'm thinking I could rock a Jeff Spicoli Story Hour.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

20th December 2022, 12:41 PM	#363
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,262	Originally Posted by Warp12 #whenithinkaboutthemiItouchmyself Get real. Last time I looked around and stomped my feet on the floor and threw stuff I detected a distinct odor of reality. And yet whatever is contained in that hashtag, I'm willing to bet I don't. In fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone in the thing I so naively consider the real world who does. So not only will I refrain from investigating it, but I will question the relevancy of it. Now fit women in athletic attire....uh oh, oh no, they're heading for the library!
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

20th December 2022, 01:17 PM	#364
tyr_13 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 17,534	Originally Posted by Thermal It's not that. What were Mrs Doubtfire and Some Like it Hot and Bosom Buddies? Comedies. They were solely intended to be a mockery of men trying to pass as women. Do people attend drag shows to politely applaud the fashion choices? Doubt it. Even Ru Paul still gets big smiles and laughs and whoops. Drag is fine. It's a form of entertainment, but we are kidding ourselves if we are pretending it isn't done on stage for a laugh. I'm not sure that's the most forward thinking kind of entertainment (laughing at men who present as women), but whatevs. . Ok, let's leave aside that we've already found one thing you agree is a point of drag that isn't sexual fetish (assuming you don't also think comedy is a sexual fetish), yes, sometimes the point is to enjoy the creativity of the fashion choices. Like with the other examples that you, I guess, agree aren't universally sexual fetish either who also do story hours? Your goalpost move from 'sexual fetish' to 'comedy' doesn't even make sense in this light. Kids often like to have stories told to them by people in cool or pretty costumes. What about this is confusing you? Your motivations and associations are not universal. I strongly believe this sentence is the root of many of the issues people just won't move away from. If you think drag is all sexual fetish (with some comedy), that's a you problem.
	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

20th December 2022, 01:45 PM	#365
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 13,789	Originally Posted by Thermal No, but I'm sure you'll find that recognizable celebrities are expected to pose for pictures and autographs pretty relentlessly, athletes included. Yeah, they sure do. Happens all of the time. I'm not sure how it's relevant though. Originally Posted by Thermal Do you think a kid who is young enough to attend a story hour would have any reservations about saying "there's the man who wears a dress!" No, I don't think kids would have any reservations about saying something similar. Probably even being inquisitive by asking, "Why is that man wearing a dress?" or the like. That's good. Kids ask questions all of the mother ***** time. I have a 3 year old granddaughter who is nothing but questions. She even asks "what?" before I finish saying a sentence sometimes. Would I ever hesitate to take her to a Drag Show Story Hour, not that they would ever ***** happen in Grand Forks, North Dakota, but the answer is no. I would have no issues because it sparks creativity, curiousness, and learning how to act in situations that aren't perfectly normal. We call it "experience" where I'm from. I'm also not under the impression that the men that do this haven't been asked or heard those questions before, by people not as innocent as children.
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss Last edited by plague311; 20th December 2022 at 02:08 PM.

20th December 2022, 01:58 PM	#366
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,956	Originally Posted by Upchurch I'd say less, since animals do not particularly care when or where they get a little frisky and often engage in a similar form of sexuality to humans. I have a friend whose dog would bring his bed out for company and then proceed to hump it for his audience. I would argue that drag queen story times have far less than that. But no right thinking person thinks children should be exposed to pets. That just leads them down the perverted route that is pet play. First you have a dog then you want to be one.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

20th December 2022, 02:16 PM	#367
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,956	The list of things children should be protected from because someone has them as a paraphernalia. Pets, balloons, pies to the face, clowns... Of course so many of these people must think spanking fetishes are good things and should be promoted to kids.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

20th December 2022, 02:19 PM	#368
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by Thermal Sure, a dancing monkey is greatly entertaining. Then whenever you see a monkey, you expect it to dance for you. No it's not, it's cruel and exploitative. No I don't. Perhaps animal abuse doesn't amuse me as much as it evidently does you.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

20th December 2022, 02:22 PM	#369
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,896	Originally Posted by tyr_13 Ok, let's leave aside that we've already found one thing you agree is a point of drag that isn't sexual fetish (assuming you don't also think comedy is a sexual fetish), yes, sometimes the point is to enjoy the creativity of the fashion choices. Like with the other examples that you, I guess, agree aren't universally sexual fetish either who also do story hours? Your goalpost move from 'sexual fetish' to 'comedy' doesn't even make sense in this light. Kids often like to have stories told to them by people in cool or pretty costumes. What about this is confusing you? Your motivations and associations are not universal. I strongly believe this sentence is the root of many of the issues people just won't move away from. If you think drag is all sexual fetish (with some comedy), that's a you problem. It's very telling that you added "sexual" to "fetish" five times in the same post, when I never said it. In fact, my examples were non-sexual (mom jeans, Unfashionable dads, straight actors). So you apparently agree that fetish and sexual fetish are different, or else why qualify it repeatedly? I think it's a strange niche for a storyteller, especially if the idea is "diversity", as claimed. Drag performances have been accepted far, far longer than actual parading sex fetishes. What I'm saying is that this is a somewhat inexplicable theme for story hours, unless the promoters have some kind of fixation on drag, that most don't feel that strongly about one way or the other, when presented as adult entertainment. It's just odd to want to have kids be ready to see...how is it being described here?... flamboyantly cross dressed men. That's a bit quirky, not to say, fixated, unless they also promote other types of normally comical attire? Or is it pretty much just parading the Drag Show that they are into?
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet Last edited by Thermal; 20th December 2022 at 02:52 PM.

20th December 2022, 02:40 PM	#370
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,339	Originally Posted by pgwenthold And, more importantly, so what if it does? We'll get the Sodom and Gomorrah treatment, that's what, and my homeowner's insurance doesn't cover acts of god. Anyways... It looks like the conservative jackbooted thugs have gotten the all ages nationally touring show, A Drag Queen Christmas downgraded to a +18 Mature event. And just what are these church ladies clutching their pears over the poor innocent children being exposed to? https://twitter.com/TaylerUSA/status...61787340480516
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,339

20th December 2022, 03:11 PM	#371
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by Thermal It's very telling that you added "sexual" to "fetish" five times in the same post, when I never said it.<> Fetish: a form of sexual desire in which gratification is strongly linked to a particular object or activity or a part of the body other than the sexual organs. an inanimate object worshipped for its supposed magical powers or because it is considered to be inhabited by a spirit.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

20th December 2022, 03:24 PM	#372
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 14,758	Originally Posted by Thermal If this is not supposed to be fetishized, why is it a Drag Story Hour at all? Do they also sponsor Mom Jeans Story Hours? Three Seasons Ago Unfashionable Dad Story Hours? Drag is a highly popular, time honoured form of entertainment. Back in the sixties when I was a kid I used to sit and watch Danny la Rue on the telly with my very conservative great aunts. I might ask why we didn't sit and watch Mom jeans variety show or the unfashionable dad's variety hour.

20th December 2022, 03:50 PM	#373
tyr_13 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 17,534	Originally Posted by Thermal It's very telling that you added "sexual" to "fetish" five times in the same post, when I never said it. In fact, my examples were non-sexual (mom jeans, Unfashionable dads, straight actors). LMAO! Dude, leaving aside the overwhelming connotation of 'fetish', the conversation you were responding to besides being about people wanting to restrict all drag events to people over the age of 18 was specifically discussing Warp12's view and WWBDD's that the reason to do this is that drag is sexual. Indeed WWBDD's, deeply wrong, argument that drag is all transvestic fetishism as listed in the DSM removes all ambiguity as to what way 'fetish' was being used. And it's pretty damn funny for you to think that there aren't a lot of people who do have sexual fetishes for the things you listed. If you really meant to argue that drag is all a non-sexual fetish, well... Quote: So you apparently agree that fetish and sexual fetish are different, or else why qualify it repeatedly? I think it's a strange niche for a storyteller, especially if the idea is "diversity", as claimed. Drag performances have been accepted far, far longer than actual parading sex fetishes. What I'm saying is that this is a somewhat inexplicable theme for story hours, unless the promoters have some kind of fixation on drag, that most don't feel that strongly about one way or the other, when presented as adult entertainment. It's just odd to want to have kids be ready to see...how is it being described here?... flamboyantly cross dressed men. That's a bit quirky, not to say, fixated, unless they also promote other types of normally comical attire? Or is it pretty much just parading the Drag Show that they are into? ...then you're just making another deeply silly argument. This is akin to saying 'why does this character have to be gay/black/a woman'? Reading events have many different themes and drag ones became popular because kids like the colorful outfits and characters, and get a lot of news because of the unlit candles who oppose them. If the best you can come up with is 'you'd have to be a fetishist to combine these', that still leaves my objection intact. Your motivations and assumptions are not universal. No, one does not need to be a fetishists of any kind to happen upon that theme. Obviously. I cosplay. One of my costumes is Freddy Fazbear from the horror jumpscare video game 'Five Nights at Freddy's'. Every time I've worn that outfit, of an animation bear haunted by the ghosts of murdered children who come alive at night to brutally kill more people, kids come up and love it. Absolutely adore the costume. Can you see how someone could say, 'hey, that'd be a great thing to read to kids in!' without being a fetishist? No? Again, that's a you problem.
	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

20th December 2022, 04:34 PM	#374
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 29,387	Originally Posted by Stout We'll get the Sodom and Gomorrah treatment, that's what, and my homeowner's insurance doesn't cover acts of god. Anyways... It looks like the conservative jackbooted thugs have gotten the all ages nationally touring show, A Drag Queen Christmas downgraded to a +18 Mature event. And just what are these church ladies clutching their pears over the poor innocent children being exposed to? https://twitter.com/TaylerUSA/status...61787340480516 Oh, no! Tayler Hansen is outraged: Quote: All Ages” Drag Queen Christmas Mega Thread �� Yesterday, a blatantly sexualized show meant to groom children was hosted in Austin, TX. I remember more simple times when these bozos' outrage at this time of year was all about the War of Christmas and how Christians are being discriminated against. Those days almost bring a tear to my eye.
	Last edited by Stacyhs; 20th December 2022 at 04:50 PM.

20th December 2022, 04:38 PM	#375
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 80,811	I'm going to be very clear here. Originally Posted by WWBDD Are you claiming that drag shows are not burlesque shows hence not inherently sexual, therefore appropriate for children? *Drag shows are not inherently* sexual.** They certainly can be, just like other kinds of stage performance. But there is nothing inherently sexual about wearing the clothes generally associated with a different gender.
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20th December 2022, 04:39 PM	#376
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 80,811	Originally Posted by WWBDD No, I'm discussing transvestic fetishism, which is a paraphilia. That's not drag.
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20th December 2022, 04:42 PM	#377
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	Originally Posted by arthwollipot That's not drag. One thing is important: we must always split hairs as much they allow.

20th December 2022, 04:43 PM	#378
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 80,811	Originally Posted by Thermal We could look at that, even setting aside that the Pythons were deliberately trying to be ridiculous. Shall we start with the Lumberjack Skit? Sure. Shall we continue with the Pepperpots?
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20th December 2022, 04:47 PM	#379
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 80,811	Originally Posted by Warp12 One thing is important: we must always split hairs as much they allow. It is not splitting hairs to draw a distinction between drag and transvestitism. They're different things.
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20th December 2022, 06:20 PM	#380
deadrose Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: the wet side of the mountains Posts: 3,903	This is sexually alluring? https://dinamartina.com

20th December 2022, 06:28 PM	#381
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 29,387	Originally Posted by deadrose This is sexually alluring? https://dinamartina.com Only to 6-year-olds, apparently.

20th December 2022, 09:52 PM	#383
Jimmy9 Scholar Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 117	Originally Posted by deadrose This is sexually alluring? https://dinamartina.com No. The problem is with these new Drag Queens who are obviously making it sexual. https://nypost.com/2022/10/18/video-...arks-backlash/
Jimmy9 Scholar Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 117	__________________ No matter how smart or well-educated you are, you can be deceived. - James Randi.

20th December 2022, 09:57 PM	#386
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 93,401	Originally Posted by WWBDD Really. No aspect of personality is innate. I'm a skeptic. .... As a skeptic did you bother to investigate this unsupported claim of yours?

20th December 2022, 10:26 PM	#388
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,896	Originally Posted by tyr_13 LMAO! Dude, leaving aside the overwhelming connotation of 'fetish', the conversation you were responding to besides being about people wanting to restrict all drag events to people over the age of 18 was specifically discussing Warp12's view and WWBDD's that the reason to do this is that drag is sexual. Indeed WWBDD's, deeply wrong, argument that drag is all transvestic fetishism as listed in the DSM removes all ambiguity as to what way 'fetish' was being used. I...uh...wasn't responding to a conversation. By Warp12, WWBDD or anyone else. So there's that. Quote: And it's pretty damn funny for you to think that there aren't a lot of people who do have sexual fetishes for the things you listed. I'm sure there are a lot of people who fetishize checks notes Unfashionable dads reading stories. Bit niche, but it's a big world. Quote: If you really meant to argue that drag is all a non-sexual fetish, well... I did not. You're projecting again. Quote: ...then you're just making another deeply silly argument. This is akin to saying 'why does this character have to be gay/black/a woman'? Reading events have many different themes and drag ones became popular because kids like the colorful outfits and characters, and get a lot of news because of the unlit candles who oppose them. I'm really digging these stereotypes you throw around so casually. Quote: If the best you can come up with is 'you'd have to be a fetishist to combine these', that still leaves my objection intact. Your motivations and assumptions are not universal. No, one does not need to be a fetishists of any kind to happen upon that theme. Obviously. I cosplay. One of my costumes is Freddy Fazbear from the horror jumpscare video game 'Five Nights at Freddy's'. Every time I've worn that outfit, of an animation bear haunted by the ghosts of murdered children who come alive at night to brutally kill more people, kids come up and love it. Absolutely adore the costume. Can you see how someone could say, 'hey, that'd be a great thing to read to kids in!' without being a fetishist? No? Not familiar with the Freddy thing. Goggling it, Freddy Fazbear seems to be...a cutsie wootsie bearsy wearsie? https://www.google.com/search?q=fred...eoiA0_25:122.5 Is your costume that you emphasized the jumpscare horror nature of somewhat more ghoulish? Quote: Again, that's a you problem. Again, you don't seem to be understanding, but I doubt further discussion will improve your comprehension. But for the hell of it: What I'm wondering is not about the story readers or the audience. That's just reading stories to kids, who probably have no idea what drag even is. It's why the adult promoters/organizers say "no, we don't want colorful people to engage children when reading stories. We want specifically men in pantyhose and stuffed bras. That's what does it for us". Ya that's a bit odd.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

21st December 2022, 03:27 AM	#389
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 14,758	Originally Posted by Thermal Dictionaries are descriptive in use, yes. We normies often get colorful in our use of the language, and get annoyed with those who fetishize dictionary definitions to the point of exclusivity. . But since nobody here is doing that ....

21st December 2022, 03:27 AM	#390
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by Thermal For those of us who aren't anal retentive ******** who spend all day jerking it to dictionaries,, fetish commonly means something you get weirdly hung up on. Pathetic but utterly unexpected response to bring wrong.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

21st December 2022, 03:28 AM	#391
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by Robin Actually fetish means what the dictionary says. But even using it with your definition it doesn't make sense on the context. Who are you saying is weirdly hung up on what? Why is it weird? Just because you don't like it? It's the classic troll tactic of "words mean whatever suits me".
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

21st December 2022, 03:30 AM	#392
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,117	Have to say when I first learnt about the "Drag Queen Story hour" I was somewhat bemused, couldn't see a direct link to reading, but if it gets more kids interested in reading, books and the library by making them all seem fun (of course there is no "seems" they are all fun but often adults make them seem like chores or boring) then why ever not?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you Last edited by Darat; 21st December 2022 at 03:31 AM. Reason: mm

21st December 2022, 03:38 AM	#393
Robin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 14,758	Originally Posted by Thermal It's why the adult promoters/organizers say "no, we don't want colorful people to engage children when reading stories. We want specifically men in pantyhose and stuffed bras. That's what does it for us". Ya that's a bit odd. Try "Let's have people from a highly popular, time honoured form of entertainment reading stories." You find it a bit odd because it's not what you are used to. Doesn't seem odd to me. I grew up in Britain. Every Christmas we all got taken to be entertained by men in pantyhose and stuffed bras. That person was often the minister from our local church or a cop.

21st December 2022, 03:41 AM	#394
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	Originally Posted by Robin I grew up in Britain. Every Christmas we all got taken to be entertained by men in pantyhose and stuffed bras. This makes me think of why 1776 was a good year.

21st December 2022, 03:43 AM	#395
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 10,969	Originally Posted by Darat Have to say when I first learnt about the "Drag Queen Story hour" I was somewhat bemused, couldn't see a direct link to reading, but if it gets more kids interested in reading, books and the library by making them all seem fun (of course there is no "seems" they are all fun but often adults make them seem like chores or boring) then why ever not? I'm kinda in the same area. My issue is that I can't make a good case why this should be a thing and I can't make a good case why this shouldn't be a thing?
	__________________ "OTP? I don' need no steenkin' OTP!"

21st December 2022, 03:51 AM	#396
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,117	Originally Posted by bluesjnr I'm kinda in the same area. My issue is that I can't make a good case why this should be a thing and I can't make a good case why this shouldn't be a thing? I think Robin sums it up well just above with the "Let's have people from a highly popular, time honoured form of entertainment reading stories." After hearing about it I did look around and having people (often the librarians themselves) dressed up in some way and reading stories is anything but unusual. There's an example in the Youtube clip I posted above - library employee dressed up for Halloween.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

21st December 2022, 03:57 AM	#397
Warp12 Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: USA Posts: 7,583	Originally Posted by Darat I think Robin sums it up well just above with the "Let's have people from a highly popular, time honoured form of entertainment reading stories." It's not honored in my neighborhood, bro.

21st December 2022, 03:59 AM	#398
Susheel Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Hyderabad, India Posts: 3,086	Originally Posted by Warp12 It's not honored in my neighborhood, bro. Your neighbourhood is not the world bro...
	__________________ I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon

21st December 2022, 04:00 AM	#399
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 19,546	Originally Posted by Susheel Your neighbourhood is not the world bro... and that, in a nutshell, is the problem as far as Warp is concerned.
	__________________ "The only true paradise is paradise lost" Marcel Proust