Drag Shows!!

[autumn1971]

Originally Posted by Warp12

I think you may be confused about the debate. Nobody said the government was attempting to silence them. Maybe read through the thread; it has all been discussed.

Then an answer to the first question, or any of the others is welcome.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by autumn1971

Then an answer to the first question, or any of the others is welcome.

Again, there was nothing in your post that warranted a fresh answer. I'm not even sure where you came up with the government being involved part, tbh. I'm not really interested in debating any of it with you at this point.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Yes. Did I claim otherwise? Not sure where you got that from.

You compared it to a fetish.

Originally Posted by Warp12

The point was that referring to Drag Queens as a slight variation of clowns is, imo, a very simplistic analysis. Perhaps even disingenuous. Especially based on some of the "mission-statements" I've read.

Perhaps an equally valid analogy would be to cosplay. Can you link to one or more of these "mission statements"?

Originally Posted by Warp12

I have repeatedly stated that my primary concern is the voices of concerned parents being silenced.

What about the voices of the drag queens that these so-called "concerned parents" are trying to silence?

Originally Posted by Warp12

This is a common trend with liberals, these days. To downplay, discredit, and flat-out try to take away the voices of conservative parents. As usual, it is front-and-center in this thread, too.

And now we get to the lib-bashing again. Typical of rightists to turn every argument into an attack on liberals.

[Random]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Yes. Did I claim otherwise? Not sure where you got that from. The point was that referring to Drag Queens as a slight variation of clowns is, imo, a very simplistic analysis. Perhaps even disingenuous. Especially based on some of the "mission-statements" I've read.

I have repeatedly stated that my primary concern is the voices of concerned parents being silenced. This is a common trend with liberals, these days. To downplay, discredit, and flat-out try to take away the voices of conservative parents. As usual, it is front-and-center in this thread, too.

It's the Paradox of Tolerance. You must note tolerate the intolerant, or else tolerance goes away.

We all know where the anti-drag crew wants to go, full-on criminalization of anything that are not straight relationships or people. There is no advantage to be gained in giving ground, because they will just keep going after that goal. So you have to resist them at every turn because it is the only rational thing to do.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

And now we get to the lib-bashing again. Typical of rightists to turn every argument into an attack on liberals.

You can't imagine how funny that sounds, considering the consensus in this thread, and the overall venue.

Look, it does not matter where Drag Queens fall in The Pocket Guide to Freaks, Geeks, and Fetishes. What matters is that liberals stop trying discredit, minimize, and silence conservative parents and their concerns.

The fact that I consider Drag Queens weirdos, freaks, or whatever...I have a right to that opinion. Just like someone who feels the opposite has a right to theirs.

[crescent]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Also
Birdcage
La Cage aux Folles
Soap
Junior
Big Momma's House
Tyler Perry's movies
Ladybugs
The Crying Game
Back to the Future II
Ed Wood
The Boondock Saints
The Nutty Professor
Dallas Buyer's Club
The Danish Girl
There are lots more.

It should be noted that men played the roles of females in plays during the Elizabethen era.

It's amazing how people get offended over nothing.

I DID include the Tyler Perry movies (Madea)

But I forgot about Soap - that made Billy Crystal famous. Hell, without crossdressing characters on TV shows we would never have had Tom Hanks nor Billy Crystal.

[Stacyhs]

I wonder how many children were traumatized and groomed by all these horrible cross dressers they saw on TV? There must be millions of them!

[deadrose]

And we PNW people would never have had the pleasure of Gertrude the clown, girlfriend of J.P. Patches. J. P. and Gertrude raised both boomer and GenX kids around here, our constant companions both before & after school. We have a statue dedicated to them. Did I mention Gertrude was a Marine before her TV career?

[Warp12]

Regarding the clown analogy, I don't recall clowns having this agenda when I was growing up:

Quote:

Jonathan Hamilt, who co-founded the New York chapter as a nonprofit, said that as of June 2019, DSH has 35 U.S. and five international chapters. The program strives to "instill the imagination and play of gender fluidity of childhood and gives kids glamorous, positive, and unabashedly queer role models".

Maybe I don't want my young children around clowns who focus on "gender fluidity" and "unabashed queer role models". You know, like maybe some don't consider that age-appropriate programming for very young children.

Of course, I know a lot of leftists just won't understand that idea. And they don't have to; they are not the only one's whose opinions count, fortunately.

[bruto]

Looking at the link in the OP, it's hard to consider this whole business as reasonable or about empowering parents to guide their children. The language is explicit in its extreme tone, and also in its expressed goal of influencing public policy. Sure, it's not itself a government site, but it is aimed straight at government and makes no bones about it.

Of course this is not really a site aimed at freedom of speech, but at the limitation of choice, and the incitement to action. Anyone who is even the robotic similacrum of a parent does not send a child to a mystery event without knowing what it is. No children are protected here from the content of shows. They, and all other children, are protected from their existence.

If, contrary to the opinion voiced above, the point of this site is to incite action against venues, then if the posting of false locations results in the wrong places being picketed, harassed, bombed, or whatever, then good. The organization deserves it.

If this is just a site where opinion is to be voiced, no harm is done anyway. If you're going to be a convincing poster, you're going to have to indulge in anti-drag rhetoric similar to that of the site's developers, and as Poe's law suggests, if done well it will simply swell the apparent numbers of protestors, and the site's stated goal of influencing public policy will be helped.

e.t.a. in response to Warp12's post above, "Maybe I don't want my young children around ...etc." ...then don't send them! It's been a long time since my kids were little, but I still remember how it was done. My kids were pretty free and their upbringing (not surprisingly, eh?) pretty liberal, but I knew where they were going and what they were doing. They weren't ******* feral!

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Warp12

You can't imagine how funny that sounds, considering the consensus in this thread, and the overall venue.

That was deliberate.

Originally Posted by Warp12

Look, it does not matter where Drag Queens fall in The Pocket Guide to Freaks, Geeks, and Fetishes. What matters is that liberals stop trying discredit, minimize, and silence conservative parents and their concerns.

First, as far as I can tell by far the majority of people trying to discredit, minimise and silence people are the conservatives. Second, their "concerns" are utterly spurious anyway since drag queens are harming no-one.

Originally Posted by Warp12

The fact that I consider Drag Queens weirdos, freaks, or whatever...I have a right to that opinion. Just like someone who feels the opposite has a right to theirs.

You do have a right to that opinion, regardless of what I think of it. We're not talking about opinion, though. We're talking about actions.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Maybe I don't want my young children around clowns who focus on "gender fluidity" and "unabashed queer role models". You know, like maybe some don't consider that age-appropriate programming for very young children.

Why? Why do you not consider it age-appropriate? Genderfluid and queer people exist. Do you want to lie to your kids and pretend that they don't? What then happens when they discover that they do?

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Why? Why do you not consider it age-appropriate? Genderfluid and queer people exist. Do you want to lie to your kids and pretend that they don't? What then happens when they discover that they do?

Whether I personally do or not, does that matter? Why? What should matter is there are a lot of people who do not consider it age-appropriate. You know, a lot of things with adult themes exist...rape, murder, orgies, 40-hour work weeks. Not all are age-appropriate for very young children, and nobody should be trying to discredit a parent's concern.

Essentially that is what you seem to be trying to do: present the case that these parents concerns are bogus, or of no merit. Well, I disagree...as do these parents.

[BobTheCoward]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Whether I personally do or not, does that matter? Why? What should matter is there are a lot of people who do not consider it age-appropriate. You know, a lot of things with adult themes exist...rape, murder, orgies, 40-hour work weeks. Not all are age-appropriate for very young children, and nobody should be trying to discredit a parent's concern.

Essentially that is what you seem to be trying to do: present the case that these parents concerns are bogus, or of no merit. Well, I disagree...as do these parents.

When they start proposing changes to laws that affect all others they are no longer acting in a parental capacity. They are simply people with political objectives. To refer to them as concerned parents is incredibly misleading just as it would be ridiculous for me to call myself a "concerned parents" when I'm making the case for my policy preferences.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Whether I personally do or not, does that matter? Why? What should matter is there are a lot of people who do not consider it age-appropriate. You know, a lot of things with adult themes exist...rape, murder, orgies, 40-hour work weeks. Not all are age-appropriate for very young children, and nobody should be trying to discredit a parent's concern.

Okay, so now you're comparing a dude in a frock to rape, murder, orgies and 40-hour work weeks? Can you not see how completely disproportionate that is?

Originally Posted by Warp12

Essentially that is what you seem to be trying to do: present the case that these parents concerns are bogus, or of no merit. Well, I disagree...as do these parents.

Reality has a liberal bias. Their concerns are bogus, and of no merit. Drag shows are harmless fun. That's not propaganda, that's reality.

[Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Whether I personally do or not, does that matter? Why? What should matter is there are a lot of people who do not consider it age-appropriate. You know, a lot of things with adult themes exist...rape, murder, orgies, 40-hour work weeks. Not all are age-appropriate for very young children, and nobody should be trying to discredit a parent's concern.

Essentially that is what you seem to be trying to do: present the case that these parents concerns are bogus, or of no merit. Well, I disagree...as do these parents.

And nobody who expresses those opinions are being silenced. They may not be taken seriously, but that's not the same thing. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences, no matter how righteous they may believe themselves to be.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Okay, so now you're comparing a dude in a frock to rape, murder, orgies and 40-hour work weeks? Can you not see how completely disproportionate that is?

Of course I can; it was presented that way for dramatic effect. But remember, it isn't just the frock; it is the mission that is questionable to some.

Quote:

Reality has a liberal bias. Their concerns are bogus, and of no merit. Drag shows are harmless fun. That's not propaganda, that's reality.

You can't demand facts as before, but then preach opinion like the above. You're not in a position to judge what is appropriate for someone else's child.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Warp12

You can't imagine how funny that sounds, considering the consensus in this thread, and the overall venue.

Look, it does not matter where Drag Queens fall in The Pocket Guide to Freaks, Geeks, and Fetishes. What matters is that liberals stop trying discredit, minimize, and silence conservative parents and their concerns.

The fact that I consider Drag Queens weirdos, freaks, or whatever...I have a right to that opinion. Just like someone who feels the opposite has a right to theirs.

And there it is again, pretending conservative parents are the ones being wronged when it is those parents trying to wrong everyone else by pushing their alt-right Christian agenda.

Why do these concerned parents need books banned, removed from libraries, and to stop drag queen story hour for kids when all they have to do is keep their own kids away?

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Of course I can; it was presented that way for dramatic effect. But remember, it isn't just the frock; it is the mission that is questionable to some.

What mission? I asked you before to post a link to this "mission".

Originally Posted by Warp12

You can't demand facts as before, but then preach opinion like the above. You're not in a position to judge what is appropriate for someone else's child.

No, I'm not. But again, this is reality, not opinion. Nobody is harmed by seeing a drag show. Nobody's child is harmed by drag storytime. Show me otherwise.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

What mission? I asked you before to post a link to this "mission".

We already discussed it.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

What mission? I asked you before to post a link to this "mission".

We already discussed it.

Quote:

Jonathan Hamilt, who co-founded the New York chapter as a nonprofit, said that as of June 2019, DSH has 35 U.S. and five international chapters. The program strives to "instill the imagination and play of gender fluidity of childhood and gives kids glamorous, positive, and unabashedly queer role models".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_Queen_Story_Hour

[arthwollipot]

That's your "mission"???

Okay.

Now tell me exactly what's wrong with it.

[Stacyhs]

Some people are just immune to logic and facts. You cannot convince them otherwise, so why bother?

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

No, I'm not. But again, this is reality, not opinion. Nobody is harmed by seeing a drag show. Nobody's child is harmed by drag storytime. Show me otherwise.

It would be hard for me to show you anything that you might consider harm. Your values are different than those who find the concept repulsive, and do not want their young children subjected to it. That doesn't mean your values are better, just different.

There are a lot of social issues people disagree on. There isn't always a right and wrong. Especially when it comes to how someone wishes to raise their children.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

That's your "mission"???

Okay.

Now tell me exactly what's wrong with it.

I'm not repeating myself on this. We already had this exact discussion a few posts back.

My personal peeves about Drag Queens are of little consequence in the big picture. That is just something to nitpick on an internet forum.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Warp12

I'm not repeating myself on this. We already had this exact discussion a few posts back.

No, we did not. In fact, what you said was:

Originally Posted by Warp12

Whether I personally do or not, does that matter?

In other words, you avoided answering the question.

Why are drag shows age-inappropriate, in your opinion?

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Warp12

It would be hard for me to show you anything that you might consider harm. Your values are different than those who find the concept repulsive, and do not want their young children subjected to it. That doesn't mean your values are better, just different.

There are a lot of social issues people disagree on. There isn't always a right and wrong. Especially when it comes to how someone wishes to raise their children.

Different people are different, yes. When someone's opinion is based in transphobia, homophobia or otherwise religious bigotry, I question the appropriateness of that opinion, and I will openly disagree with it.

They're not saying that they want drag storytime stopped because it's icky. They're saying that they want drag storytime stopped because they believe that their children will be somehow harmed by it, which is completely bogus. I'm just trying to get to the root of why they believe this bogusity.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

No, we did not. In fact, what you said was:

In other words, you avoided answering the question.

Why are drag shows age-inappropriate, in your opinion?

Yes, I am intentionally not taking the conversation there. It is a waste of time.

I have earlier stated that I am not suggesting an outright ban. But rather age-appropriate restrictions. It should be enough for me to say I don't want my young child to have access to it; whether or not I can be standing over them at every moment of the day, or at every venue such an event might be presented.

Parents have a legitimate right to these concerns.

[Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Parents have a legitimate right to these concerns.

So? No one is forcing them to go.

[Warp12]

Quote:

Drag Story Hour is a storytelling program designed for children ages 3-8. A local drag artist trained by children’s librarians will read picture books, sing songs, do movement activities, and provide an age-appropriate introduction to the concept of drag as a form of dressup and play.

I mean, with events proclaiming they are going to teach kids 3-8 to dress in drag, is it any wonder some parents have concerns? One thing I haven't been able to track down are any standardized rules and requirements for attendance. Most that I find have an age range, but nothing specified about parental consent or parent/guardian accompanying the child. Age ranges vary widely, it seems.

Seems like legislation may be required to ensure age-appropriate measures are in place.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

So? No one is forcing them to go.

Warp12's concern appears to be about getting unexpectedly blindsided when he's not expecting it. Like, if he's taking his kids to the library, which is a perfectly legitimate thing to want to do, and there happens to be drag queens there reading to children. And more importantly he's advocating that conservative opinions should not be silenced, and with that I agree.

For various reasons I've developed a certain amount of respect for Warp12. I think it's important that he and other people with a more conservative outlook bring those opinions to the forum. But I also think that those opinions should not remain unexamined.

It is my opinion that children are not harmed by knowing that drag queens exist and that when they take the makeup off they're ordinary people just like anyone else. I think this opinion is grounded in reality and the fact that I've known more than a few drag queens in my time and they are among the most kind and thoughtful people I've ever met. I think opposition to them is irrational and I would like people to think about subjects like this more rationally.

I did not hide things from my kids. From quite early on they were aware that adults had sex, that gay and trans people existed and were regular people like anyone else, and that Santa wasn't real and was just a fun game that people played at Christmas time. I don't think it's healthy to conceal these facts from kids.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Warp12

I mean, with events proclaiming they are going to teach kids 3-8 to dress in drag

Please quote the section which says that they're going to teach kids to dress in drag.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Please quote the section which says that they're going to teach kids to dress in drag.

Seems pretty clear they are pushing that idea, to me...I'm not saying an actual course on how to apply make-up and pick out your dress.

Quote:

...and provide an age-appropriate introduction to the concept of drag as a form of dressup and play.

"Play" kinda seals it for me, the notion they are pushing the idea as for these young children to do so. I'm pretty sure plenty of leftists would be fine if they were handing out make-up kits, though. And if it is their kid, fine.

[arthwollipot]

An "introduction to the concept" is not the same thing as teaching kids to do it. But I see absolutely nothing wrong with demonstrating to kids that it's okay to play dress-ups.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Warp12's concern appears to be about getting unexpectedly blindsided when he's not expecting it. Like, if he's taking his kids to the library, which is a perfectly legitimate thing to want to do, and there happens to be drag queens there reading to children. And more importantly he's advocating that conservative opinions should not be silenced, and with that I agree.

Also, I am not sure about every library's policies for children. But I can tell you, by age 8 I was a "latch-key" kid. Meaning, I had a house key and was unattended for much of the day. So, many kids like that might just wind up at the library, I imagine. So, you know, I think the discussion of age-appropriate restrictions is very relevant to this topic.

Or at least a relevant concern for parents.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Yes, I am intentionally not taking the conversation there. It is a waste of time.

I have earlier stated that I am not suggesting an outright ban. But rather age-appropriate restrictions. It should be enough for me to say I don't want my young child to have access to it; whether or not I can be standing over them at every moment of the day, or at every venue such an event might be presented.

Parents have a legitimate right to these concerns.

What makes you think they do? Outside of drag queens at Gay Pride parades drag queen shows usually take place at nightclubs where it requires ID to even enter.

But Oh My God? Your children must be protected from individuals who are different.

You think hiding the human experience from your children will make them grow up to be healthy and well adjusted? But hey I get it. Racism, sexism, hatred and bigotry must be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

Got to pass on that bigotry to the next generation.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Also, I am not sure about every library's policies for children. But I can tell you, by age 8 I was a "latch-key" kid. Meaning, I had a house key and was unattended for much of the day. So, many kids like that might just wind up at the library, I imagine. So, you know, I think the discussion of age-appropriate restrictions is very relevant to this topic.

Or at least a relevant concern for parents.

Times have changed. In most places I think the above would now be considered criminal neglect. I certainly wasn't given the run of the house unsupervised until at least 14.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Also, I am not sure about every library's policies for children. But I can tell you, by age 8 I was a "latch-key" kid. Meaning, I had a house key and was unattended for much of the day. So, many kids like that might just wind up at the library, I imagine. So, you know, I think the discussion of age-appropriate restrictions is very relevant to this topic.

Or at least a relevant concern for parents.

Same with me, keys and going to school,. making lunch etc completely on my own...

But can't you see that that's evidence of Parents having trust in their kids to self-supervise? My parents trusted me, and yours clearly trusted you, to either deal with weird stuff on your own or come to them for help and advice.
For kids, most of what adults do makes no sense and is done with weird rituals and in strange outfits. But kids just accept it, temporarily, without having to have a moral opinion about everything - that's the parents ' projection, not the kids reality.

I can't help thinking that parents who are genuinely worried about Drag Shows either had a very ****** childhood themselves or think they are doing a very ****** job at parenting. Both are legitimate concerns, but they have nothing to do with Drag Shows.

[arthwollipot]

Also, I think it's important to make the distinction between drag shows, which as acbytesla pointed out tend to take place mostly in clubs that already have minimum age requirements, and Drag Queen Story Hour and related events, which are specifically for children.

It's actually interesting to read the Wikipedia link that Warp12 posted.

Quote:

"Just like an actor can do an R-rated movie and a G-rated kids’ movie, we have different levels of how we entertain and how we can put on our character as well."[23]

...

The ALA responded by affirming its support for DSH events, stating that it "strongly opposes any effort to limit access to information, ideas and programmes that patrons wish to explore" and "includes a commitment to combating marginalisation and underrepresentation within the communities served by libraries through increased understanding of the effects of historical exclusion."[28]

...

"Anyone who thinks drag isn’t for children is wrong" said Cummings, "Drag is expression, and children are such judgment-free beings; they don’t really care what you’re wearing, just what you’re performing."[31]

...

West’s responded to critics who question if children are too young to experience drag, saying, "Drag is an opportunity for anyone – including and especially children – to reconsider the masks we are all forced to wear daily.”[30] West added, "Children are inundated with implicit imagery from media about what is 'boy' and what is 'girl.' And I believe that almost all kids are really less concerned about playing with a toy that's supposedly aligned to their gender, and more concerned with playing with toys that speak to them."[30]

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Whether I personally do or not, does that matter? Why? What should matter is there are a lot of people who do not consider it age-appropriate. You know, a lot of things with adult themes exist...rape, murder, orgies, 40-hour work weeks. Not all are age-appropriate for very young children, and nobody should be trying to discredit a parent's concern.

Essentially that is what you seem to be trying to do: present the case that these parents concerns are bogus, or of no merit. Well, I disagree...as do these parents.

It's not a question of whether the concerns are bogus, but who is responsible for what, and who gets to make the rules for everyone.

One thing that seems to lack clarification here is how "very young" those very young children are. Because I would worry if very young children were out loose on the city streets without parental supervision.

I don't think it's discrediting a parent's concern to say that their concern is not mine, and that permitting my point of view is less discrediting of theirs than forbidding it is discrediting of mine.

Of course this depends a little on how you interpret the meaning of the site which is the subject of this thread. I think it naive to believe it is aimed at voicing concerns and exercising free speech. I believe it is aimed at creating action to disrupt and forbid the things that the site operators consider, in their floridly bigoted language, to be inappropriate, and to mobilize efforts to legislate those events and the life choices they represent, out of existence.

Reasonable precautions to protect kids from harm are not bogus, but any idea that this site is really about that is. It is about conduct the site author declares "degenerate," an author who specifically prides herself on seeking conflict (her word) against "the depravity of the left," and who seeks legislation on the subject. I think you would be at best a dupe if you believe this is as far as the author's concern goes. This is not the writing of someone who has a respect for human rights other than her own.

This site may look to some to be about whether kids should be indoctrinated, but it's really about how.